-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED
- Thread starter RoyalBlood
- Start date
powuh_of_PIE
Smash Journeyman
Glad you like it, go right ahead ^ ^
Takumaru
Smash Lord
Mario has a mustache. Zelda does not.
80:20, Mario's favour.
80:20, Mario's favour.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
Very nice summary, powuh of PIE.
Right here, you just demonstrated how little you know about Mario's jab lock. It's not any harder than D3's CG to maintain, its startup is generally Utilt since the grab allows time for DI, and you can end it with an Fsmash or Dsmash; both of which would very likely kill Zelda from the edge with her weight at any percentage above 80 AND set her up for a gimp in the event that she survives. Also, Luigis is banned in MD/VA, which is why you've never seen Boss or Famous do it (Mario pros). Fear, TC1, and Kanzaki on the WC, however, have done it in tourney IIRC. TC1 did it on Sky twice during the match...vs Peach...
Monk once told me that EVERY character has their "gay" advantage on this stage. Zelda has her Dins. Olimar has his...olimarisms. Mario has this ridiculous jab lock.
I'll give you the bit about Zelda's Dsmash, since Successor of Raphael would chew me out if I said otherwise. HOWEVER, Fludd and cape both are very effective vs Zelda's recovery when used in conjunction, even moreso than vs Shiek's recovery because Zelda vulnerable to cape and Fludd until she completely vanishes. If hit with either, her trajectory is greatly changed. In Fludd's case, she goes into a freefall after the upB since it pushes her up and away, where she'll be vulnerable to cape or Fsmash.
While it's true that Zelda outranges Mario, Mario is faster in attackspeed and movement speed. Pie has already given the rundown of Mario's close range game and frame data, but neglected to mention all of our options from jab cancels. One of which is jab -> grab, which works in the event that you try to predict and block the jab -> Dsmash, or jab -> pivot grab in the event that you try to spotdodge -> Dsmash after our jab. We also approach with fireballs, but Pie also said that we can't use fireballs too much for fear that Dins will punish the ending lag. This is partially true, but with Nair being 3 frames, I doubt that dins is going to reach Mario fast enough, OFTEN enough to negate fireballs as a feasible approach option. They do prevent us from using fireballs safely on recovery though.
Also, Zelda's undoubtedly killing better in this matchup. Zelda is light enough for Mario's Usmash AND Dsmash to be viable kill moves in this matchup if one of them is unstale. Mario's Usmash is 9 frames and has great priority and will be killing around 110-120%. Fsmash is killing around 100%, and we're gimping Zelda rather reliably. My point? You're killing faster. We're keeping up.
@ Pie: At long range, neither is safe. If Zelda is caught using her Dins and we manage to fludd you offstage while you're doing it (if Fludded offstage during Dins, you're automatically put into a freefall stage. Insta-death), the risk is too great. Mario merely can't fireball without having enough time afterwards to Nair or cape or he takes damage. Zelda runs the risk of losing her stock.
At medium range, I generally agree with your analysis. Fireball approach is safer, but the only safe approach method.
At close range, Mario has the advantage. His jab cancels are the main reason, but we also have great OOS options at this range and SH aerials. Both the jab cancels and SH aerials have followups. Zelda has great gtfo moves, but there's only a handful of characters that can beat Mario close range, and she's not one of them. Your best bet is to keep him at arms length where his speed and combo potential isn't an issue.
Offstage is where my biggest issue with your analysis lies. I don't think you guys realize that the only safe place from Fludd is below the stage...where Zelda is forbidden to go for fear of ledgehogging. This means that she isn't safe at all to do her upB if Fludd is charged. If you try to upB far enough away where Fludd won't reach, your upB ALSO won't reach from that distance. Cape can hit before OR after Zelda's upB for the gimp, before or after she reappears, though it's best to cape before she's vanished. Zelda also has VERY little options for defending against gimping. The most she can do is airdodge, which isn't safe in itself offstage. Because of this, mixing up gimp options with Mario's Fair is actually an option.
And Zelda has...walkoff aerials, and Dins for harassment. To defend against HER gimp options, we have cape against Dins and cape for stalling. Fireballs aren't as safe because of her Dins which usually deals with walkoff aerials, but our upB can stagespike at an angle that Zelda has no hopes of recovering from.
Despite my points, I still believe it's probably 50:50, but the ONLY direction it can go from there is adv Mario. If Zelda can keep him from getting inside consistently, use Dins intelligently, and play safely enough offstage to not get gimped, she can take it. If she fails to keep him out and is gimped at every turn, then it goes to Mario.
powuh_of_PIE
Smash Journeyman
Zelda is not at all forbidden from recovering below, in fact it's my preferred method of recovery when facing gimpers like Mario: as i said before, whether you decide to ledgehog or not you will pick wrong. If you go for ledgehog, she passes you and lands on the stage: if you try to FLUDD on reentry, she catches the ledge with a sweetspot. She doesn't have to be at perfect range to sweetspot at all, therefore you cannot gimp traditionally.
Granted, this doesn't happen on every stage: some stages with quirky ledges do not allow you to catch the ledge inside of full range, but all the neutrals do, so it's a CP issue.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
Easily fixed by doing a Gliding Din's (SH Din's and floating forward) which puts her farther away from the ledge and closer to Mario. In addition to this, if Mario starts up FLUDD then Zelda could easily detonate Din's early to prevent her being helpless while being pushed back. Neither will end up doing damage to the other (assuming the blast radius of Din's wasn't close enough to Mario) and you're back where you started.
It's really just something a Zelda player should only fall for once, and shouldn't work for every single match.
I'm talking about directly below, not diagonal to the stage as you were suggesting since Fludd can still catch you here. If you're DIRECTLY below, you will be ledgehogged if not bair stagespiked first.
Edit:
Your answer to not being pushed offstage while doing a grounded Dins is to JUMP instead? Besides, you Fludd after Dins starts. If you aren't close enough to the ledge to be pushed off, then we don't Fludd. If you detonate early, you'll still be pushed offstage, except this time you'll grab the ledge, giving us time to close this range onstage.
Fludding a Zelda doing Dins is one of those ballsy moves and is only really used to deal with camping. If you're near the ledge spamming dins, I'm saying that you should be wary of this, because the result is an entire stock. So you're right in saying that the Zelda should only fall for it once. Afterwards she'll learn from the mistake and realize that "hmm...maybe I shouldn't camp this guy."
What could possibly force her to get directly below the ledge? I havn't been there since.... summer (unless I drop from the ledge and Uair for fun)! If you DI up you'll never really find yourself immediately under the ledge. The worst you'll get is a trajectory that sends you diagonally below the ledge but nothing too concerning.
As for the cape... what would you achieve caping her teleport on arrival? I always thought it would be best chasing her destination point with a damaging move >.< If you cape the teleport's startup, the control stick can be re-positioned.
As for the cape... what would you achieve caping her teleport on arrival? I always thought it would be best chasing her destination point with a damaging move >.< If you cape the teleport's startup, the control stick can be re-positioned.
MrEh
Smash Hero
You just got edgehogged.
MrEh
Smash Hero
And I love how gimpable it is.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
Everytime I see MrEh's signature I imagine that guy is reacting to what MrEh just said.
Always full of substance Mreh!
I find it's a really basic recovery that seems to do the job for me if you use it responsibly, at least enough to get her feet back on the ground more times than being out-flat destroyed. I rarely see high level zeldas get gimped that easily
Let's just settle Mario at 50:50 for now and move on, otherwise we'll just go back and forth. Who would we do next?
I find it's a really basic recovery that seems to do the job for me if you use it responsibly, at least enough to get her feet back on the ground more times than being out-flat destroyed. I rarely see high level zeldas get gimped that easily
unless against Mk 
.... and extremely hard hitters with range/speed
.... and extremely hard hitters with range/speed Let's just settle Mario at 50:50 for now and move on, otherwise we'll just go back and forth. Who would we do next?
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
so whos next?
powuh_of_PIE
Smash Journeyman
Have we done Yoshi yet? I wanna know what you guys think of his aerial game vs our priority.
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
i don't remember doing Yoshi, but i also haven't fought any worth their 2nd jump for a while.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
Yoshi, Link, Ganondorf & Jigglypuff are missing I think
I think Fox too
I think Fox too
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Fox and Jiggly boards themselves already did Zelda and it's pretty in depth.
as for mario.... yeah umm... Fludd and Cape.... not useful against Zelda's recovery.... at all.
in fludd's case, you really can't push zelda any farther away with fludd than she's capable of recovering unless you intend to use it when she reapears above the ledge (why would she) in which case it's no better than just GRABBING THE LEDGE.
in cape's case, it is ALWAYS possible to retain your original trajectory even when caped.
55:45 Zelda. We kill earlier, and we rack up damage just as well since we're harder to get inside.
as for mario.... yeah umm... Fludd and Cape.... not useful against Zelda's recovery.... at all.
in fludd's case, you really can't push zelda any farther away with fludd than she's capable of recovering unless you intend to use it when she reapears above the ledge (why would she) in which case it's no better than just GRABBING THE LEDGE.
in cape's case, it is ALWAYS possible to retain your original trajectory even when caped.
55:45 Zelda. We kill earlier, and we rack up damage just as well since we're harder to get inside.
Takumaru
Smash Lord
You mean the ones that actually main better characters?
Mario doesn't need to cape to gimp her recovery. Her recovery by nature is hella easy to gimp.
I'm just stating my own observation; I've rarely seen, from videos anyways, a very good zelda get ledgehogged at least; she's always somehow managed to make it back onto the stage (that is if she's forced to use it in the first place). Her second jump is normally good enough imo to at least reach the ledge.
Startup and arrival is dangerous I know, but I think it does get the job done. Luckily on startup she has a chance to turn invisible before she's chased by quite a few characters and warp passed them as they come out to get her, and on occasion the range is enough to at least throw up a shield when she lands on stage with a pursuring enemy chasing her. I think her recovery is just... average, both at worst and at best ^^
But enough about that =D Let's keep on topic with matchups, or we can make a thread dedicated to her recovery and ways in which we can implement it safely.
Startup and arrival is dangerous I know, but I think it does get the job done. Luckily on startup she has a chance to turn invisible before she's chased by quite a few characters and warp passed them as they come out to get her, and on occasion the range is enough to at least throw up a shield when she lands on stage with a pursuring enemy chasing her. I think her recovery is just... average, both at worst and at best ^^
But enough about that =D Let's keep on topic with matchups, or we can make a thread dedicated to her recovery and ways in which we can implement it safely.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Oh no, Oh No, OH NO ZELDA HAS POOR RECOVERY OMG. This might be a painful request, but can we stop talking about her god**** recovery when we're not discussing the match-up?
Kanzaki
Smash Champion
I've 2 stocked Doppleganger in a tourney match... Apparently he's SoCal's best Zelda..? I gimped him twice and killed him once :]
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I'm probably the best Zelda in my area.
... since you know, nobody else really plays her.
... since you know, nobody else really plays her.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
Unfortunately, this is based upon the opinion of a group of people that are supposed to know what they're talking about
Not just one person ^_^
EDIT:: Sorry, my rudeness arises from time to time
Care to elaborate?
Not just one person ^_^
EDIT:: Sorry, my rudeness arises from time to time
Care to elaborate?
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
I think we're just rambling incoherently now, and not really discussing the matchup. lol
Have we settled with 55/45 or 50/50? I'm okay with either...
Have we settled with 55/45 or 50/50? I'm okay with either...
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
50/50 and move the hell on, vote 1.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
I vote for Link
I'm sorry, but you fail. You can't argue against or refute fact. You can't argue tried and true strategies when all you bring to the table is theory.
If you cape Zelda while she's doing her upB, her direction WILL be reversed. There is no "Well, if you do it below the stage then...". If you're caped while aiming toward the stage, your direction will be reversed and you will reappear free-falling in the blast zone.
If you're Fludded while starting up your upB, it WILL push her far enough away that you will likely have to freefall to the ledge instead of sweetspotting it UNLESS your original intended destination was lower than the ledge; compensating for the change that Fludd makes with its push. In that time during the freefall, you are vulnerable to cape, or you may not be close enough to reach the ledge.
THIS is what happens. If you doubt the validity of my claims, I can provide video evidence. I understand not being able to accept the fact that cape completely wrecks your upB because in dittos it wrecks ours too. But don't pass off your theorycraft as an actuality.
If you want the 55:45, take the advantage. I've given the rundown of the matchup and I've suggested how either party will win. If you insist on it being your advantage, there's no reason for me to waste my time. The ratio means little when it comes down to it anyway. If it did, I wouldn't main Mario.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
Zelda players should not be using Farore's Wind this close to Mario in the first place. Or at least not spamming it enough to give Mario the opportunity.
Farore's Wind is punishable by every single character if used close enough to them, it's not something Mario has alone.
Also, I think someone already said that if Mario capes the beginning the beginning of FW, then a quick-thinking Zelda could simply reverse the direction she was originally aiming for.
Yet even then, if Mario is close enough to be able to jump over to Zelda then most likely she should not need to use Farore's Wind in the first place. A second jump should suffice for her recovery, unless she was already jumping back from far off the screen. Even then, running up to attack Farore's can be done by any character, and shouldn't be made into a special point for just this matchup.
Still, these matchup discussions are meant to be about players familiar with the matchup playing to their best abilities, not people brand new to it. The methods you're describing are still just things a Zelda player should only fall for once.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
...
You obviously have no knowledge of "new" Zelda discoveries, so let me break it down to you.
You can constantly readjust the teleport's trajectory until Zelda actually disapears.
Caped? Return to neutral and then reinput the trajectory, cape is negated. The cape is useless against Zelda.
Fludded? Readjust for the new trajectory, taking into account the fludd and the effects it will have until your hitbox ends (and there's plenty of time before Fludd hits to see if it will hit and how far it will push you back).
So no, unless it pushes Zelda physically beyond the point where it's possible for her to return (which is pretty much, the blast zone), no move that simply changes momentium will have any effect on her recovery.
It's not even difficult to make the adjustment, all it takes is a little knowledge.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
this.
I was going to respond to the post myself but this is it exactly.... furthermore, this has already been posted at least a few times. Which is why I'm so adamant that it's 55:45 not 50:50... the mario's who are insisting he's got things on zelda can't seem to understand what will and WILL NOT work.
Nobody should ever upB when Mario is that close to them. That's why a smart Mario will force it out through usage of Fludd to slow your approach to the stage and fireballs to steal jumps. Once you know that your opponents options are reduced, then you go for the cape even if they're saving their upB. After the cape, you hold the ledge. If you DONT upB when we're forcing it, you end up losing the stock anyway.
If Mario capes near the beginning, Zelda may have enough time to continue holding her ORIGINAL trajectory and actually reappear in that direction. The effects of cape don't last for the entire duration of Zelda OR Shiek's upB. In the event that Mario capes toward the end, you're screwed. Keep in mind, however, that cape ALSO pushes Zelda away, though not as much as Fludd.
And the difference between other characters hitting Zelda out of her upB and Mario caping her during it is that if you upB onstage, offstage, anywhere, you will very likely lose your stock. Add that to the fact that only one character has an attack even remotely similar to Fludd, and you've got a matchup specific concern. I'm sure you'd like to ignore it just like how I'd like to ignore the fact that Mario has a subpar recovery, but
Also, are you suggesting that I've never fought an experienced Zelda before? That I've rarely ever used these tactics or seen them actually work? I assure you, I wouldn't tell you false information about a matchup just to get an "even" on our matchup chart.
If you're able to compensate for cape pushback, reverse direction on your controller to aim for the ledge (or onstage), all while gauging whether or not you actually even NEED to readjust at all in just about half a second, then I applaud you. The question I have for you is: have you ever successfully pulled this off vs Mario? I seriously doubt it.
Every Zelda I've ever fought has fallen prey to cape at one time or another while offstage OR onstage. Also keep in mind that Fludd won't be gimping you by itself. One of the main uses for it is to give us more time to react during your recovery. If you DO readjust fast enough to compensate for Fludd pushback, we could already be on the ledge. It works the same way with Lucario, with Fox/Falco/Wolf, with Ike, with anybody who is stationary during their upB. Zelda is no exception because she can change direction.
MrEh
Smash Hero
The cape isn't useless against Zelda.
Not at all.
Not at all.
AzNfinesse
Smash Journeyman
have any of you ever actually fought a mario with real skill? give me their name and i'll take it back. until you play a mario that actually knows what their doing u dont know what ur talking about. i'm sorry but this is sad...cape plays a HUGE role in mario's matchup against Zelda.
Okay, I'm obviously missing something if we both have completely different opinions. Somebody care to show me this upB trick on wifi? I doubt lag will have much effect on it if I'm understanding what you're saying. PM me if you're interested in shutting me up. I'll report my findings here.
powuh_of_PIE
Smash Journeyman
Well, I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but... I played Boss, and he only used the cape to reflect Din's. And that was sparingly. There was never really a good opportunity for him to cape me - I recovered in all the places he didn't want to go.
AzNfinesse
Smash Journeyman
Boss has nothing on Jwn3d. sorry to say.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I doubt there's even many people that know who Jwn3d is. I do, and I know he's good, but he's no Boss. Neither am I.