Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[adumbrodeus]

Since this is really the only important thing here (in regards to the cape), I'll answer it.

If you're able to compensate for cape pushback, reverse direction on your controller to aim for the ledge (or onstage), all while gauging whether or not you actually even NEED to readjust at all in just about half a second, then I applaud you.

The question I have for you is: have you ever successfully pulled this off vs Mario? I seriously doubt it.

Actually yes, but don't my word for it, plenty of other Zelda users have done it consistently, and at least a couple have videos.

Personally, after finding this out, I've never fallen prey to the cape with Zelda after finding this out.

Half a second is a laughably long amount of time to react anyway, top of the metagame is 7 frames, most people react in 9, half a second is 30.

I know it's not a precise calculation, but you get my meaning, it's not too hard a timeframe.

Every Zelda I've ever fought has fallen prey to cape at one time or another while offstage OR onstage. Also keep in mind that Fludd won't be gimping you by itself. One of the main uses for it is to give us more time to react during your recovery. If you DO readjust fast enough to compensate for Fludd pushback, we could already be on the ledge. It works the same way with Lucario, with Fox/Falco/Wolf, with Ike, with anybody who is stationary during their upB. Zelda is no exception because she can change direction.

...

So why not, just ledgehog?

Fludd doesn't create more time for you to react because the duraction is fixed, and you won't encounter a hitbox before then.

Granted, it has situational uses, but generally speaking, it won't force anything.

 

[Brinzy]

The trick to recovering after getting caped works, but considering how Zelda likes to warp before someone reaches her, you may find yourself getting caped at about 6 frames before disappearing, which can lead to death.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The trick to recovering after getting caped works, but considering how Zelda likes to warp before someone reaches her, you may find yourself getting caped at about 6 frames before disappearing, which can lead to death.

But then I've got the start-up to the cape plus the 6 frames to react, all 12 frames of start-up.

 

[Judge Judy]

If Zelda is caped at the same point she disappears, her direction will be reversed. Also, FLUDD is viable to prevent sweetspots since it can last the entire duration of FW's startup.

 

[MrEh]

Even if you do manage to reverse your upB in time, the Cape will still screw with your aim.

And Zelda's upB is so easily edgehogged anyway, so eh.

 

[BoTastic!]

Someone tried to do that to me. I just jumped in front of them and didn't cape as they Up'd to their death.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Someone tried to do that to me. I just jumped in front of them and didn't cape as they Up'd to their death.

Firstly, Cape has a long enough start-up to be dealt with on reaction, so your opponent totally jumped the gun, something that would not happen at the top of the metagame.

Secondly, your opponent did it completely wrong then. Resetting to neutral and then rechoosing your direction is sufficent to avoid the cape. It also won't kill you if you're not caped. The only situation where you'd want to do it differently is if Mario is frame-perfect with the cape. Which again, could be figured out on reaction.

If Zelda is caped at the same point she disappears, her direction will be reversed. Also, FLUDD is viable to prevent sweetspots since it can last the entire duration of FW's startup.

Again, 12 frames of start-up, if it's impossible to input fast enough, that's plenty of time to decide to hold the opposite direction (on the y axis, not the x).

And again, there's plenty of warning with Fludd, all I need to do is adjust my input a little and I can land where I can, including sweetspot.

Even if you do manage to reverse your upB in time, the Cape will still screw with your aim.

Firstly, there's only one case where you need to reverse (aka, Mario is frame perfect), resetting to neutral, then rechoosing the direction to get to the ledge.

Secondly, why? All you need to do is adjust your aim to compensate, something you're already doing.

And Zelda's upB is so easily edgehogged anyway, so eh.

True, but remember she rarely has to actually take the ledge, most of the time she can land onstage.

 

[Judge Judy]

And again, there's plenty of warning with Fludd, all I need to do is adjust my input a little and I can land where I can, including sweetspot.

And you intend to do this in 0 frames? How can you adjust to a continuously changing position, especially when it isn't linear? I can sort of buy the 12 frame startup for the cape, but this just doesn't make any sense.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And you intend to do this in 0 frames? How can you adjust to a continuously changing position, especially when it isn't linear? I can sort of buy the 12 frame startup for the cape, but this just doesn't make any sense.

Simple, I've got plenty of warning as the fludd is coming, I adjust my input taking into acount the pushback and how long I'll be in the fludd before it hits me.


If you have advance warning, it's very easy to make adjustments for inevitable events if you know what the effect will be, same basic idea with the frame-perfect cape.


Not that it's not difficult, and doesn't take time and expirience to get perfectly, but we're talking about the top of the metagame, and it's definately humanly possible to know what fludd will do to you by expirience.

 

[Judge Judy]

Simple, I've got plenty of warning as the fludd is coming, I adjust my input taking into acount the pushback and how long I'll be in the fludd before it hits me.


If you have advance warning, it's very easy to make adjustments for inevitable events if you know what the effect will be, same basic idea with the frame-perfect cape.


Not that it's not difficult, and doesn't take time and expirience to get perfectly, but we're talking about the top of the metagame, and it's definately humanly possible to know what fludd will do to you by expirience.

The FLUDD does not push in one direction, it's affected by many things: my aim, your momentum, and your DI. Secondly, no matter what you will lose horizontal distance. It doesn't matter how many times you input, your aim will never be perfect since the FLUDD can always make it slightly off.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The FLUDD does not push in one direction, it's affected by many things: my aim, your momentum, and your DI*. Secondly, no matter what you will lose horizontal distance. It doesn't matter how many times you input, your aim will never be perfect since the FLUDD can always make it slightly off.

*bolding added

All of which are known before fludd hits, plus you forgot "time you'll be effected" which is also known.


So, take into account those 4 factors (your 3, and the one I mentioned) and adjust your input accordingly. It's pretty precise (40 possible trajoctories have been identified), so you can adjust.

So your aim should be near perfect at the top of the metagame.


Unless of course, it moves you beyond the area you can teleport to then you're destroyed, honestly though, that's stage dependant, the blast zone decides whether it has any effect on the percent that zelda dies.

 

[Judge Judy]

*bolding added

All of which are known before fludd hits, plus you forgot "time you'll be effected" which is also known.

So, take into account those 4 factors (your 3, and the one I mentioned) and adjust your input accordingly. It's pretty precise (40 possible trajoctories have been identified), so you can adjust.

So your aim should be near perfect at the top of the metagame.



Unless of course, it moves you beyond the area you can teleport to then you're destroyed, honestly though, that's stage dependant, the blast zone decides whether it has any effect on the percent that zelda dies.

The FLUDD out lasts FW's startup and the FLUDD is physically pushing you which isn't just a simple direction change. Not to mention that no matter what you lose horizontal distance, something you can do nothing about.

 

[Matador]

I want to see this done. It seems like you have to be pretty frame-perfect to pull this off. Also, does this work if you cape Zelda's upB near the END of it right before she vanishes?

 

[MrEh]

I want to see this done. It seems like you have to be pretty frame-perfect to pull this off. Also, does this work if you cape Zelda's upB near the END of it right before she vanishes?

If you cape her during the last couple of frames, then she's screwed.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I don't know. Personally, I would never always recover on FW all the time. Actually, I never really have a problem recovering against Mario since I mix up FW and Din Glides. At good range and vertical height, I find that Fludd can't really counter Din Glide since Zelda continues to drift (And with the physics of Fludd's knockback and Din Glide, I find that Zelda still moves horizontally even if most of the water propulsions hit.) And since Din Lasts longer than Fludd, I don't think it's really a problem. Besides, since Mario can't cancel Fludd, If you curve a DIn, Mario is going to eat a fireball while you recover.

I don't know, it seems to be a good trick to mix it up if Mario players in particular like to use Fludd. The same trick applies to Squirtle as well. Though I think Squirtle's water gun is better than Mario's Fludd. (I don't know, it seems that way to me, perhaps some testing in that department?)

Doing that enough, Mario players usually get it in their heads that Fludd doesn't work anymore.

Also, I don't think Fludd is as effective against FW as people think it is anyway. Doesn't Zelda do a sort of, hop-stall, you can say while initializing the FW? Against my PT friend, Water gun never seemed to be an issue to me. I mean, FW doesn't leave Zelda totally without physical momentum. This isn't like Peach's Float where she has almost zero of it thus Watergun and fludd effect her as much.

 

[Judge Judy]

FLUDD gives better pushback than the Water Gun, has a larger aim radius, and can use pushback sooner than Water Gun. Also, FLUDD doesn't need to gimp on its own; all it needs to do is at least create an opening for the cape. In this case it would be using it to prevent FW from sweetspotting the ledge and cape afterwards while Zelda is in freefall, if necessary. As far as Din's Fire, that is a terrible move to use as a recovery; easily caped and you're vulnerable nearly the entire time.

 

[MRTW113]

FLUDD gives better pushback than the Water Gun, has a larger aim radius, and can use pushback sooner than Water Gun. Also, FLUDD doesn't need to gimp on its own; all it needs to do is at least create an opening for the cape. In this case it would be using it to prevent FW from sweetspotting the ledge and cape afterwards while Zelda is in freefall, if necessary. As far as Din's Fire, that is a terrible move to use as a recovery; easily caped and you're vulnerable nearly the entire time.

Not to mention the bad lag afterwords. Couldn't Mario both hit Zelda with cape and deflect Dins at the same time?

 

[Judge Judy]

Not to mention the bad lag afterwords. Couldn't Mario both hit Zelda with cape and deflect Dins at the same time?

Yes. Din's Fire is terrible for recovery; it'd be like DK trying to recover with Giant Punch, except at least that has SA.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The FLUDD out lasts FW's startup and the FLUDD is physically pushing you which isn't just a simple direction change. Not to mention that no matter what you lose horizontal distance, something you can do nothing about.

Yes, it does, so? You account for how long you'll be under the influence and you adjust accordingly.


I never said that you won't lose the horizontal distance, however Zelda's recovery has a massive range, so whether or not she has to be far enough out for the horizontal distance loss to matter depends on the stage (because "far enough out" might be "in the blastzone").

I want to see this done. It seems like you have to be pretty frame-perfect to pull this off.

Admittedly, it's harder the later in FW's start-up that you pull it off, but for the most part it's actually quite easy to pull off. Even 5 frames before vanishing is easy, and that's at the tail end of the start-up.

Beyond that, it starts to get difficult, but definitely doable.

Since you need to jump out and catch Zelda, it's far more difficult to time a cape to coincide with the end of the start-up then for Zelda to put in the input properly (especially since I believe you've got to jump out before the move starts), and we all know that it's more then possible to be frame perfect, given sufficient warning, which the cape provides.

I lack video equipment, but I'm sure another Zelda has vids of this.

Also, does this work if you cape Zelda's upB near the END of it right before she vanishes?

If you cape her during the last couple of frames, then she's screwed.

Again, no. I can go the other route and hold the opposite direction to which I want to go. As long as the cape hits before I vanish, it'll work perfectly. 12 frame start-up, at the top of the metagame, that's 5 whole extra frames to decide if I wanna use neutral then return, opposite direction, or do nothing. No need for prediction either.

At the top of the metagame, the cape is useless against FW.

 

[Judge Judy]

Yes, it does, so? You account for how long you'll be under the influence and you adjust accordingly.


I never said that you won't lose the horizontal distance, however Zelda's recovery has a massive range, so whether or not she has to be far enough out for the horizontal distance loss to matter depends on the stage (because "far enough out" might be "in the blastzone").

What you are failing to understand is that this has nothing to with direction input. You are taking a linear direction input and suggesting you can adjust indefinitely to continuous non-linear direction and position changes. What makes even less sense is that you are claiming you can add an input even after the startup for FW is over.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What you are failing to understand is that this has nothing to with direction input. You are taking a linear direction input and suggesting you can adjust indefinitely to continuous non-linear direction and position changes. What makes even less sense is that you are claiming you can add an input even after the startup for FW is over.

....

No, you totally misunderstand.

It's one input, possibly prior to even getting hit by fludd itself, the latest it would occur is the last few frames of FW's start-up. That's why I said :

Simple, I've got plenty of warning as the fludd is coming, I adjust my input taking into acount the pushback and how long I'll be in the fludd before it hits me.

There's no need for continuous adjustment, Fludd takes a little while to come out and it's got a far amount of traveling time. If it's gonna adjust my position during FW start-up, I have plenty of time to figure that out as well as calculate how much and adjust my position accordingly, provided I have the knowledge to do that (top of the metagame, remember?).


So, it's simple, I figure out where fludd will have pushed me when FW's start up is finished, and choose my input based on that (or rechoose it as the case may be).

 

[Judge Judy]

So you're going to guess?

 

[adumbrodeus]

So you're going to guess?

Why would I guess?


The result of Fludd is predictable based on my DI, my momentum, your aim, and the time I'm under the influence of Fludd, all of which can be accurately determined before I choose/rechoose my input because Fludd gives you plenty of warning.

 

[Judge Judy]

There will be things that you can't see, such as slightly overlapping hitboxes from the water that are based partly on my aim and partly on how long the FLUDD has been charged. You might be able to predict all these things, but if I make a subtle change at the last moment (as in the same moment you disappear), something you could not see, you would not have any reaction time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There will be things that you can't see, such as slightly overlapping hitboxes from the water that are based partly on my aim and partly on how long the FLUDD has been charged. You might be able to predict all these things, but if I make a subtle change at the last moment (as in the same moment you disappear), something you could not see, you would not have any reaction time.

False, the water has several frames of travel time even when relatively close, any edits you make, I'll be able to see and react to well before the affected fludd hitboxes reach me.

 

[Judge Judy]

False, the water has several frames of travel time even when relatively close, any edits you make, I'll be able to see and react to well before the affected fludd hitboxes reach me.

The waters' hitboxes are larger than they appear and there can be points where they can overlap slightly depending on the arc.

 

[Matador]

This is starting to sound more and more ridiculous. I'll reserve my opinions until I actually see this consistently happen. Until then, I don't care what the ratio is.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The waters' hitboxes are larger than they appear and there can be points where they can overlap slightly depending on the arc.

And I can learn how to apply that intuitively from expirience.

Remember, match-ups are at the top of the metagame.

 

[Judge Judy]

And I can learn how to apply that intuitively from expirience.

Remember, match-ups are at the top of the metagame.

Then you are still guessing whether or not your opponent is going to do that or not.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Then you are still guessing whether or not your opponent is going to do that or not.

False, I see you angel the fludd slightly, since it has more then 7 frames of travel time, if I know it will arrive during the start-up of Din's I change my angle to account for it if the effect is meaningful.

All you have to do is pay attention.

This is starting to sound more and more ridiculous. I'll reserve my opinions until I actually see this consistently happen. Until then, I don't care what the ratio is.

Ridiculous, because it's difficult?

If it's humanly possible, it's factored into the match-up because match-ups are at the top of the metagame (aka, the best Zelda/MK/Marth/whatever that is possible based on what we know).

If people can do the JC shine infinite for fox (at all, maintaining it indefinitely is not humanly possible due to hand spasms) then I think they can remember how a few factors effect Fludd after some expirience.


It's actually pretty amazing the complex stuff that the human mind can do with barely any effort with enough expirience.

 

[Judge Judy]

False, I see you angel the fludd slightly, since it has more then 7 frames of travel time, if I know it will arrive during the start-up of Din's I change my angle to account for it if the effect is meaningful.

All you have to do is pay attention.

But we're talking about the last possible moment of FW's startup, plus the amount each individual water hitbox pushes you needs to be taken into account as well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But we're talking about the last possible moment of FW's startup, plus the amount each individual water hitbox pushes you needs to be taken into account as well.

To hit on the last possible moment of FW's start-up the fludd hitboxes need to have already been traveling for more then 7 frames before the final frame of FW's start-up. No projectile travels fast enough for this not to be the case except at point blank range.


As for individual hitboxes, it can be learned intuitively from expirience, though somebody with a good head for numbers could probably calculate it perfectly on the first go based on the technical specifics of the hitboxes.

 

[Judge Judy]

Since we're talking in terms of the highest level of play, I'll introduce the cape teleport. This technique works even if you sweetspot, and if performed correctly places the opponent in an immobile position without the ledge invincibility frames. How it works is you cape your opponent at the same instant they sweetspot the ledge; sounds simple, but the timing is near impossible. However, this means even sweetspotting becomes unsafe. Not that I think any of this is all that realistic, the cape teleport does exist, and it does work.

 

[Villi]

Deng, I wonder why matchup discussions on here turn so hardcore into theorycraft.

Judge Judy, do you know the frame window for the cape teleport? Does he cape her while he's off stage or on stage? You make it seem like the window is pretty tight. In an effort to not discount the strategy -- if a good human reaction speed is 9 frames and the frame window (x) is less than that, the probability of Mario succeeding with the cape teleport is x/9.

Say you needed to be frame perfect, 1/9 chance of gimping Zelda because she had to sweet spot the ledge as if that itself would happen very often with Mario in a position to try the cape teleport. Well, would it be worth it? If Mario fails, Zelda gets a free pass back on stage and now she's edge guarding Mario.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

wow I missed a lot all I'll say is that it is incredibly easy to recover from being caped as long as you know what to do. Many zeldas do not, but once they do, it shouldn't be a problem.

getting caped at the very last second STILL doesn't screw you because the cape has long enough startup that, if you see it coming out, you should be able to readjust in time. It's more likely too, but still not guarunteed.

Either way, as villi says, it's normally going to fail and then you're in horrible position against zelda.

 

[BoTastic!]

I want someone to do this to me. :x I wanna see for myself.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I want someone to do this to me. :x I wanna see for myself.

it works 100% of the time.

that doesn't mean the cape is useless, it just means that it's **** hard to use. Quite simply, because mario cannot cape zelda mid teleport, he is never capable of preventing her from adjusting her teleport to save herself.

His BEST option is to attempt to hit zelda with the cape at the last possible frame before she vanishes. Because if he cuts it that close, he's either going to barely miss or to barely connect and, either way, zelda would have had to guess which was going to happen. Any earlier and zedla can easily adjust and any later and you aren't going to trick her into falsly compensating.... and that requires **** near frame perfection... which really limits how good the cape is against her and, even if he IS frame perfect, the zelda has a 50:50 shot of guessing which way to aim correctly which can result in bad positioning for him.

On wi-fi, zelda's going to have even less time to respond due to inherent input lag so you'll have to challenge zeldas close to you who are good if you want prrof (though I regularly do this to marios on wifi too so it's still quite doable... just harder to do.)


this is REALLY just a situation of "does the zelda know how to cope?" because it's REALLY REALLY easy to eschew the effects of the cape... but the zelda needs to know what she needs to do.

 

[Judge Judy]

Judge Judy, do you know the frame window for the cape teleport? Does he cape her while he's off stage or on stage? You make it seem like the window is pretty tight. In an effort to not discount the strategy -- if a good human reaction speed is 9 frames and the frame window (x) is less than that, the probability of Mario succeeding with the cape teleport is x/9.

Say you needed to be frame perfect, 1/9 chance of gimping Zelda because she had to sweet spot the ledge as if that itself would happen very often with Mario in a position to try the cape teleport. Well, would it be worth it? If Mario fails, Zelda gets a free pass back on stage and now she's edge guarding Mario.

It's about a 1-2 frame window and Mario doesn't have to go off-stage to cape teleport, he just needs to cape you at the same point you sweetspot; the cape's hitbox is large enough to cape the ledge while on-stage. As far as human reaction time, talk to your buddy.

Deng, I wonder why matchup discussions on here turn so hardcore into theorycraft.

Trust me, I am completely aware how ridiculous this all sounds.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if mario tries to cape a farore's sweetspot, she's invincible so it wouldn't work... if you're trying to cape her as she falls towards the ledge... you could just hop down and ledgehog and it'd work just as well or better.

 

[Judge Judy]

if mario tries to cape a farore's sweetspot, she's invincible so it wouldn't work... if you're trying to cape her as she falls towards the ledge... you could just hop down and ledgehog and it'd work just as well or better.

That's the glitch, the cape teleport goes through and removes ledge invicibility. However, again, the timing is near impossible.