Sorry, long dense post...
Ridiculous because you're taking advantage of the fact that this is matchup discussion. That you can't argue against something if it's "humanly possible...at the top of the metagame" because there aren't many things that can't be done at the top of the metagame. By that same logic, Zelda should never be safe to use Dins from a distance because my reaction to the startup is so quick that I Fludd you offstage. I gain about 10%, you fall to your death.
I'm stretching it right? That's what it sounds like from my end. You're suggesting we completely disregard caping and Fludding Zelda's upB because of this extraordinarily convenient and character specific tactic that works regardless of WHEN you're affected by cape; a tactic that requires little less than perfection. By the arbitrary matchup discussion rules of engagement, no problem. This is fine. Just know we're opening a very dangerous door is all, one that Judge already put his foot in with suggesting cape teleportation. Every Mario knows how stupid difficult the timing is on the cape teleport, so much so that we rarely discuss it. When you bring up this tactic that gives you 12 frames to react, that no one's heard of, that is so befitting for THIS situation, you have to excuse me for thinking it's just a little preposterous.
And I'm begging someone to prove it to me! A video, a demonstration over wifi, a Mario that has actually had this happen to them...something. But no, nobody wants to get their hands dirty on wifi because if I Fludd/Cape and kill you just once, which I undoubtedly will, posts like...
...this...
Will have to concede to the fact that cape and Fludd ARE useful in this matchup, that you were wrong about the last 3 pages, and that your recovery is just like everyone else's...***** by Mario.
I see what you're saying, you're not concerned that it's overly hard like Judge Judy is, you're not sure if it even exists.
Which is a fair point, and videos are nice, but the thing is, it follows the principals of Zelda's recovery very nicely, it's just the fact that the first directional input can be overwritten by subsequent ones before she disapears.
In that sense, it's a very general Zelda technique that has extremely useful applications in this particular match-up.
It's also something that other teleporting characters have (all 2 of them... Sheik can also continuously adjust her recovery before the teleport, something that was extremely important in melee because it made her impossible to edgeguard, and metaknight he can actually readjust after he disapears, which is how IDC functions)
12 Frames to react is just the cape's start-up time.
But, you can test for yourself, up-b with zelda and then change the direction you input, as long as you input before disapearence, you'll go the last direction you input.
So now I ask, how am I abusing the rules of the discussion? We've got a bowser main confirming that yes, Zelda CAN do this, a mario who said how a Zelda jumped the gun and used this principal to send herself into the blast zone, and furthermore, understand my priorities (and what should be everyone's priorities) representing the match-up as it is, assuming that the characters are played as best as is humanly possible to the best of our knowledge.
Why, this particular line? Because every other line ends up being arbitrary and when people go beyond them, the match-up suddenly becomes irrelevant. Sure, it's possible to write up a match-up as "how a scrub will play", but it assumes a certain level of scrub. It's also possible to right a match-up that assumes exactly in the middle of the skill differential between M2K and Emblem Lord, but how is that useful for those beyond?
With the top of the humanly possible metagame, it's still useful for the lower level players, because they can get techniques to learn for the match-up, so it's the most useful for the greatest number of people to do it that way.
As for the technique requiring perfection... 12 frames at absolute worst to react is hardly perfection. That's akin to reacting to a falcon punch (hyperbole, yes). Only in the most extreme cases does it require anything close to perfection (cases where you're not sure whether it will hit or you'll disapear first), and those cases are far harder for mario to create then it is for Zelda to react to.
As for Din's, fair enough, but it does depend on the distance, and I invite you to do it.
By the same token the cape teleport is something that you SHOULD account for in match-ups. I initially didn't know what it was, but when I looked at it... I saw an absolutely amazing technique that could push mario up quite a bit on the tier list when utilized properly because it fundamentally redefines what is safe.
The thing is... it's not too hot against Zelda's recovery, the fact that you don't know where she'll go before she actually goes there messes with it.
I wonder how it works against Marth (my main), the dolphin slash hitbox might prevent it, though it means he can't plank (which he sucked at anyway). Ganondorf (my other secondary besides Zelda) is screwed though.
Heck, in general it might be very very powerful against planking, please PLEASE research it, heck, I'll help during the summer.
Zelda's recovery is differant than anyone else's save sheik's.
Unlike ANYONE else, she is able to change her direction at any given frame before she disapears, at which point she is invincible and invisable. Other characters can be caped AFTER they've made their decision for a direction. Zelda cannot. Therefore, so long as she knows she's been caped, she can ALWAYS readjust.
The closer you get to when she is about to teleport, the tighter her timing needs to be... but your cape has enough startup that she should be able to adjust even then.
The only way it's going to work is if zelda just plain forgets, doesn't know how, or doesn't try to readjust. Otherwise you're going to need to try to trick her by trying to hit her on the last possible frame and hope she misguesses whether or not you're going to connect.... why not just not bother with the cape?
Not quite anyone, you forgot about MK's down-b, though he can actually adjust AFTER he disapears.
), but if you focus on getting me offstage/gimping me, I'll focus on getting around the cape/FLUDD.
