Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Brinzy]

But Sonic definitly has the advantage at mid range and close range :O Zelda just has the smashes that put up a wall. You can trick them into using one, but that's mindgames again, which aren't taken into account.

Sonic has to be frame perfect to punish Zelda after a whiffed Fsmash, dtilt, or jab. That's how fast they cool down. Back to smashes though, Usmash and Dsmash can be punished, so if you're fighting a Zelda who loves them (which many do because of their fast start-up), you can bait and punish accordingly. Fsmash is not as easy to punish as I've figured out after a lot of playing. At close range is where Zelda is home at, so I don't see why he's great there. Remember, close-range for Zelda might mean out of Sonic's range.

Otherwise, I agree with your post.


Sonic's kill moves aren't too shabby, actually, but I can't count all the times I've 2-stocked Sonics on my level merely because they couldn't land a kill move. That's more knowing what Sonic can do instead of any innate advantage, of course...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

my primary experience against sonic is against shugo whom I play pretty often. and he makes the matches **** close. he normally wins just because he's unfairly good, but he's good enough to beat me with a lot of charcters, and sonic is his very best chacrter and he still has a harder time against zelda than most of the cast does.

definitely no less than 55:45 Zelda's favour. you cannot safely approach us. plain and simple. you can attempt to bait us, but when you fail you are going to eat the brunt of zelda's sparkles. and when you get in you get in. Zelda COULD punish with some powerful moves and that would make the matchup close, but she also has the option to rely on safer gameplay and use her low cooldown attacks as sheilds. it makes it **** hard to punish her and, therefore, sonic is going to lose at most meetings they share. it's not how zelda's used to fighting, but she has multiple answers for absolutely every attack in sonic's repetoir and an easier time killing him than vice versa. now he DOES have substantial mindgame skills, but all that does is keep him from getting *****. if he didn't have those mindgames, he'd better be prepared to lose every match. Zelda is flat out better than sonic. it's that simple. he NEEDS mindgames to make any sort of opening for wracking damage OR for killing. Zelda does not. sonic has notoriously low priority/range and zelda has notoriously high priority/range which means that, straight out of the gate she's winning. it takes all sonic can do to get around zelda's defenses much less make up for the disadvantage.

he's got enough mindgames to make the matchup closer to even, but even WITH all that consideration, it's still zelda's advantage 55:45-60:40 it's not like we aren't considering those things. some of you are acting like we neglected to consider mindgames in the matchup. no that's not true. without the mindgames, sonic would have zero against zelda. it'd be at least 80:20 her favour. your mindgames make THAT big of a difference, but you have THAT big a disadvantage to overcome and you just can't do it without luck.

 

[Trillion]

Zelda does not Farore's past Sonic to reach the ground when she's above him. She moves away from him and times airdodges to easily dodge anything that can be thrown at her at very tall heights and consistently (yet not perfectly) dodge at lower heights. Also, Zelda does not dog fight other characters in the air with her aerials. She SH's them and uses them as punishing tools. Hit her shield, eat a fair/bair if it wasn't safe. Fall for an airdodge, catch an uair. That's a player's fault, but the point is to show how Zelda's aerials are mainly used. Most characters can beat Zelda in the air if she's foolish enough to try and fight back like she's everyone else. She's not going to willingly do that often enough.

I agree with the thing about the airdodges, I simply mentioned the Farore's as an alternate method if a Sonic is reading your timing of your airdodges, more options is never a bad thing even IF they are rarely used. Also, I wasn't specifically referring to aerial dogfights specifically, I meant if it just so happens that both are trying to attack with an aerial for some reason such as someone trying to "combo" the other. Hopefully, yes, Zelda's will learn not to try to fight back and will just focus on getting low and safe using airdodges and such.

Also, having a lot of mindgames shouldn't be why a character has an advantage over another. If your opponent is stronger than you, has more range than you, kills earlier than you, can deal with your attacks easily, etc. yet you have tons of mindgames, YOU might win the fight, but it doesn't really seal the deal as for who has an advantage at close-range, long-distance, etc.

This is blatantly false. Them more ability that a character has to mind game an opponent the better. An Ike can be strong, have more range, kill earlier, and deal with sonic's attacks, etc. but if he gets mindgamed even once into missing an attack, then his cool down lag will cause him to get brutally punished by sonic. This is elementary knowledge. Malcolm (a sonic main) beat M2K's metaknight in one match out of a set of three. There is no way that he did that without using sonic-specific mindgames. You could say that mindgames apply more the players than the characters, but sonic has specific fake outs that are rather easy for even noobs to pick up on such as shield cancelling the spin dash. That example is character specific to sonic and thus counts in his favor.

Also, Zelda players, if Sonic is rolling your way, time a dtilt. You should be low enough to dodge anything if he goes over you. If dtilt connects, either Sonic gets hit or something clanks. All that matters is you're not getting hit.

If any sonic player is stupid enough to stand really far back and let you have time to plan a counter to his spin dash, then he isn't doing it right and is most likely a complete noob. Any character can easily just grab sonic with the z button (forget shield grabbing, that isn't even necessary). This will hardly ever happen against a sonic player who knows anything. A Sonic main uses the spin-dash to punish and to chase, not to approach.

 

[adumbrodeus]

THIS

This is why Sonic has so many terrible matchups and why this can't possibly be Sonic advantage. 55:45 at most though. But Sonic definitly has the advantage at mid range and close range :O Zelda just has the smashes that put up a wall. You can trick them into using one, but that's mindgames again, which aren't taken into account.

EDIT:
SPOILER: We're not serious about advantage, Boxob was just being lolish. But really, Sonics can't agree on 60:40

Also, having a lot of mindgames shouldn't be why a character has an advantage over another. If your opponent is stronger than you, has more range than you, kills earlier than you, can deal with your attacks easily, etc. yet you have tons of mindgames, YOU might win the fight, but it doesn't really seal the deal as for who has an advantage at close-range, long-distance, etc.

It's not about "having mindgames", it's mindgames potential. With some characters in some match-ups it's simply easier to "predict" what option will defeat an opponent's choice simply because you have multiple optinons that deal with a ton of your opponent's options.

Then there's other factors to consider, how small a mistake messes up the opponent, how large the punishment that occurs is, etc. But ultimately, while mindgames itself isn't calculatable, how much more effective mindgames are in a given match-up (both in ease and power) is a measurable factor.




This post I think probably summerized it the best:

...

No.

When you talk about "mindgames potential" you're not talking about execution at all. It's the OPTIONS that a character has, and how easy or difficult it is in a given situation to "predict accurately" what will counter your opponent's actions.

This has nothing to do with how a player thinks, and everything to do with move safety, how the moves cancel, range, priority, how damaging a "correct" is, how small of a mistake removes advantageous spacing, etc. In other words, the measurable factors in the game.

We can't measure mindgames themselves, but we can measure how easily a move you choose will counter a move your opponent uses if randomly chosen with weighting.

We can measure how large or small the spacing that needs to be maintained for it to remain advantagious (and therefore, how small a mistake is needed to lose it).

We can measure how much punishment occurs if a mistake is made.



For a simplistic example of one of those factors, assume that a character has 4 safe on block options against an opponent and they're too fast to spotdodge on reaction. Now assume that the opponent has 4 options to counter, each beats out 1 of the initial character's options and altogether they beat out all 4 options collectively. None can be done on reaction, they're all too slow, so what are the odds, purely randomly, that the opponent will pick the right choice (assuming his timing is perfect)? 1/4.

Now, if the spread is 1/3, isn't that better for the opponent. Or how about one option that beats all of the initial character's options.


Then of course, we get issues of timing, baiting, ect, but a character's options are measurable in a giving situation in all respects. That's what "mindgames potential" is. Options when understood as a matter of raw chance, and risk/reward. If your character has better "mindgames potential" it's easier to mindgame the opponent inherently with that character.

Does that mean you can't mindgame people when using a character with lower mindgames potential? No, it's just harder/less effective.


edit:
I guess as another example, Snake vs. MK.


MK safely outranges every safe move Snake has on the ground with dtilt. However, the margin of error for his spacing is very small, otherwise he's in range to get hit by a dropped grenade's explosion. Also, Snake requires a lot less damage to kill MK straight out, so punishment is more effective for Snake. Tiny mistake, significant punishment (in other words being in an unsafe range).

The match-up still isn't even IMO, but anyone who doesn't say that the fact that the margin of error is small and failure is very significant does not factor into the match-up is crazy.

And yes, Sonic does tend to do well in the "ease of mindgaming" department because he's got a ton of ways to cancel his moves in ways that make it difficult for opponents to actually counter a sonic approach.

 

[Kataefi]

The problem Sonic faces is that, with a lack of kill moves in comparison to Zelda (compare 3 to 9 kill moves), he becomes very easily telegraphed at later percents. It is possible for her to oulive him in this matchup than vice versa.

Whereas Zelda is predictable at earlier percents in the way she racks up damage, from a killing perspective she has a move for almost every situation she could find herself in, which places pressure on Sonic if they are of equal percents. In a sense she could start doing mindgames here - running underneath opponents and doing nothing, delaying a response to bait a reaction from Sonic and then punish him. She's slow in movement speed, but that doesn't make her rigid as a character.

And Zelda shouldn't be standing still (coughmecough). I think a lot of other non-Zelda mains get the impression that she stands still and waits for her enemy's action in a bid to react to that as punishment. Sonic can mindgame her to hell and back if she's always trying to predict him via this way. If she takes an active approach in this matchup, she becomes A) slightly less predictable, and B) a character with a more mobile high priority moveset - this can limit his spacing tools. His only safe means of getting inside her is via safe pokes here and there and building momentum once he gets her in the air. She can start timing airdodges for the latter (unless there's hitstun I don't know about), and she can start jumping and waiting eratically in an attempt to at the very least screw with his poking game.

I get a feeling she beats him up close.

 

[GodAtHand]

It's funny that you mention standing still Kataefi, the very first couple of times I played a Sonic that was what I did and the match was very difficult (I still won). But once you start being able to counter while putting yourself in a better position to do so the match gets much easier.

 

[Brinzy]

stuff

Fair enough.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The problem Sonic faces is that, with a lack of kill moves in comparison to Zelda (compare 3 to 9 kill moves), he becomes very easily telegraphed at later percents. It is possible for her to oulive him in this matchup than vice versa.

Whereas Zelda is predictable at earlier percents in the way she racks up damage, from a killing perspective she has a move for almost every situation she could find herself in, which places pressure on Sonic if they are of equal percents. In a sense she could start doing mindgames here - running underneath opponents and doing nothing, delaying a response to bait a reaction from Sonic and then punish him. She's slow in movement speed, but that doesn't make her rigid as a character.

And Zelda shouldn't be standing still (coughmecough). I think a lot of other non-Zelda mains get the impression that she stands still and waits for her enemy's action in a bid to react to that as punishment. Sonic can mindgame her to hell and back if she's always trying to predict him via this way. If she takes an active approach in this matchup, she becomes A) slightly less predictable, and B) a character with a more mobile high priority moveset - this can limit his spacing tools. His only safe means of getting inside her is via safe pokes here and there and building momentum once he gets her in the air. She can start timing airdodges for the latter (unless there's hitstun I don't know about), and she can start jumping and waiting eratically in an attempt to at the very least screw with his poking game.

I get a feeling she beats him up close.

That really wasn't a match-up commentary, it was a correction misconceptions about mindgames potential. Believe me, I know Zelda quite well, and I lurk around here pretty often, I used to be quite active on this board but time constraints have made that difficult.


I was not suggesting a sonic advantage, I actually think the opposite, but the "mindgames don't factor into match-ups and that's why sonic phails" line annoys me. The fact is, mindgames potential is a measurable factor and part of each and every character.


Also, the Sonic's primary advantage is in the "ease of use" department, his lack of killing power tends to hurt him in the "effectiveness" department.


Seriously, Hedgedawg will tell you, I know Zelda, she's also my top secondary.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Sheik>Sonic>Zelda

AMIRITE?

just use Zelda's Down B, problem solved for the match-up.

 

[GodAtHand]

no...

I would feel much more comfortable going straight-up Zelda in this matchup. All of Sonic's hit-boxes besides the spring are attached to his body. A lot of Zelda's are not, that means that Sonic is going to have a really bad time trying to get a hit on us without us hitting him before he is even in range...

 

[Bandit]

Sheik>Sonic<Zelda

AMIRITE?

Don't worry, fixed!

 

[Chis]

no...

I would feel much more comfortable going straight-up Zelda in this matchup. All of Sonic's hit-boxes besides the spring are attached to his body. A lot of Zelda's are not, that means that Sonic is going to have a really bad time trying to get a hit on us without us hitting him before he is even in range...

Sonic is bait and punishment. Why would we just walk into you?

 

[RoyalBlood]

Sonic is bait and punishment. Why would we just walk into you?

Mindgames lawl

It's just as saying, why should Zelda get baited?

I know I know horrible example

Oh well

Sheik finished

>_> misformats >_>

 

[GodAtHand]

As Sonic, how are you going to get ANY damage without being close up?

 

[GwJ]

You can't. But then again, we can't physically account for mindgames and mistakes ahead of time. And for that, I predict an extreme rating, although when playing an actual sonic, it'll even out a lot.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Sonic does have kill moves, this isn't june >_>

Fsmash, Dsmash & Bair.

YEs, Sonic has kill moves. But 3 is not much in terms of ways to kill in Brawl and he doesn't really have many effective set ups for those moves.

Zelda has many kill moves and set ups. This match up is almost definatly in Zelda's favour. I'd say around 55-45 or 60-40.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah. I agree. sonic CAN win but he's gotta heavily outclass the zelda he's playing against or nail every single bait. Also, zelda has to be falling for a lot or be inferior in skill.

Sonic is not a common matchup, so sonic SHOULD win the first few times a zelda plays him as long as he knows what he's doing because he's very tricky. but, while he has a lot of mixups, once zelda learns how to be safe, she can really play a waiting game and just punish sonic whenever he tries to get in. not like she'll ALWAYS win the exchange, but she'll win more than sonic making it an exchange that's QUITE worth it. Sonic can't poke or camp zelda. he HAS to approacher her and... really... she's got the tools to stop his approaches and a LOT more kill options.

and if you're on a stage with platforms, sweet jesus sheik can chain camp sonic for half the match and zelda can kill with lightning kicks more easily.

Zelda/Sheik has a sizeable advantage against sonic, but both zelda and sheik alone have an advantage, it's just not as large as the two together.

 

[ShadowLink84]

YEs, Sonic has kill moves. But 3 is not much in terms of ways to kill in Brawl and he doesn't really have many effective set ups for those moves.

Zelda has many kill moves and set ups. This match up is almost definatly in Zelda's favour. I'd say around 55-45 or 60-40.

the number of kill moves means little. Look at MK. He doesn't have anywhere near as many as Ike or Zelda, but lookie there.
ITs the effectiveness of the setups.

For Zelda, she has an easier time landing her kill move.
Hence why most of the time her kill moevs tend to be from her smashes rather than her Fair, bair and Dair. All of them can kill at low percents, but landing them is difficult.

Zelda vs Sonic is in favor of Zelda but not by much. 55:45 from my experiences (which aren't much I admit).

For sheik its 60:40 maybe little more.
With the two together I would say 65:35.
Sheik for racking up damage and Zelda for killing.


I like sheik more thoug, Vanish kills are sooooo win. >_>
*shot*


@Sonic: We assume high level play already, so there is no lack of experience that results in Sonic winning a few. *smacks you with a stick*

 

[-Mars-]

Bair is certainly not hard to land, I have no idea why there is always that common misconception. In fact, most of the time my bair is decayed from landing two or three in a stock that I can't even kill with it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the number of kill moves means little. Look at MK. He doesn't have anywhere near as many as Ike or Zelda, but lookie there.
ITs the effectiveness of the setups.

For Zelda, she has an easier time landing her kill move.
Hence why most of the time her kill moevs tend to be from her smashes rather than her Fair, bair and Dair. All of them can kill at low percents, but landing them is difficult.

Zelda vs Sonic is in favor of Zelda but not by much. 55:45 from my experiences (which aren't much I admit).

For sheik its 60:40 maybe little more.
With the two together I would say 65:35.
Sheik for racking up damage and Zelda for killing.


I like sheik more thoug, Vanish kills are sooooo win. >_>
*shot*


@Sonic: We assume high level play already, so there is no lack of experience that results in Sonic winning a few. *smacks you with a stick*

not really... zelda's bair is easy to land. it's VERY quick and is BEASTLY OoS punnishment. you underestimate her aerials that's enough to take her 60:40... really she does about as well as sheik.

I support 60:40, 60:40 and 65:45, though I won't be heartbroken if zelda only gets a 55:45 I don't think it's as accurate.

also, I know the final matchup rating is based on high experience. I'm just letting zelda mains know what to expect, and letting sonic mains know whay they think zelda isn't as bad as she really is for sonic. *smacks back with sparkley stick.*

 

[Kinzer]

All of Sonic's hit-boxes besides the spring are attached to his body.

Chis should have instead said "Uair

10char"

No really, listen to us, not what the false SBR tells you about Sonic.

They sure as Hell have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to Sonic... or at least the majority of them.

 

[Kataefi]

^^ lol what has this matchup got to do with the SBR?

 

[ShadowLink84]

not really... zelda's bair is easy to land. it's VERY quick and is BEASTLY OoS punnishment. you underestimate her aerials that's enough to take her 60:40... really she does about as well as sheik.

Zelda doing in the air as well as Sheik? I argue otherwise, while Zelda does have her Fair and bair, both of which are extremely quick and powerful, they must sweetspot in roder for it to kill.
sonic will camp just outside of her range so how will she land the Bair?

its not going to happen often considering Sonic's speed and his ability to keep his options open on the approach.
Nor is Zelda exactly going to fight with Sonic in the air either
192.168.1.39
I support 60:40, 60:40 and 65:35, though I won't be heartbroken if zelda only gets a 55:45 I don't think it's as accurate.

also, I know the final matchup rating is based on high experience. I'm just letting zelda mains know what to expect, and letting sonic mains know whay they think zelda isn't as bad as she really is for sonic. *smacks back with sparkley stick.*[/QUOTE]

*smashes you with a home run bat*
of course but I do think you're making it seem like its easier to land her bair and Fair than it really is.
You shouldn't forget Sonic's ability to cancel his atpproaches.

@kaf: he is touching on the priority issue. A number of Sonic's attacks have some disjointed hitboxes to them. utilt, Usmash, uair, Bair, Fsmash, the first and last hit of Fair.
I dont see why Zelda would bother fighting Sonic with aerials considering she has better options on the ground.

 

[Kataefi]

OoS Bair is a punishment ^^
It's surprisingly easy to land - though she needs to spot the opportunity in time.

 

[Kinzer]

I just said that because I'm tired of all these BS claims about Sonic not having any priority, I know Zelda has more options on the ground than she does in the air, but if I see something that says anything about Sonic and lack-of priority in the same sentence, I'll be in that thread.

And who do we have to thank for getting those stupid-arse claims around more than anybody else?

I'll wait...

 

[GodAtHand]

^

Who is... Shadow spreading rumors based on jealousy?

I'm just piping in again to say that I completely agree on 60:40.

 

[Kataefi]

I mean this with no ignorance to Sonic, but Zelda has some insane priority going on with her moveset; in the context of this matchup, Sonic really is outprioritised =(

Magic disjoints even seem to override a lot of other disjointed attack as they never clank, similar to MK though obviously not as transcending. They will always (at the very least) trade hits if the hitbox is out in time, I've tested this.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

OoS Bair is a punishment ^^
It's surprisingly easy to land - though she needs to spot the opportunity in time.

That's assuming he doesn't space his attacks properly. The only move that doesn't push a shielded player far enough away, are fair Usmash, and uair?

And we can Dash Attack Cancel the Usmash so that we slide past you.

 

[Kataefi]

Bair does have range you know ^^
It goes straight up, up-left, up-right. It can punish spacing quite easily. 2 can be done in 1 SH. A powershield to this OoS option is almost a guanranteed sweetspot.

This is used as punishment. So he's not punishable if he's spacing to perfection.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I mean this with no ignorance to Sonic, but Zelda has some insane priority going on with her moveset; in the context of this matchup, Sonic really is outprioritised =(

Magic disjoints even seem to override a lot of other disjointed attack as they never clank, similar to MK though obviously not as transcending. They will always (at the very least) trade hits if the hitbox is out in time, I've tested this.

That is because the ground is dictated by damage.
MK is of course the exception he has laser priority to his moves. (except glide attack)

 

[Bandit]

I'll agree 60-40 on this. Sonic has to work so much harder in this match-up to be successful.

 

[ShadowLink84]

60-40 isn't so much harder.
Its barely a soft counter.

 

[Brinzy]

I also say it's an advantage to Zelda, though the whole game to Sonic is apparently something that I lack experience in properly rating (as adum's post completely put me on ice). I'll say 55:45, but if it's 60:40 for most of you all, then that's fine with me, too.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Off topic:

Guys/girls/things I need help, specially from Kataefi >:l

I was bored and said hmmm hey! let's make a small summary with the matchups

So with my crappy photoshop skills I made this

So after I finished I thought that those would be meaningless since Katefi's thread is the same right?

I need your opinion Katefi!! >: l

 

[ShadowLink84]

I also say it's an advantage to Zelda, though the whole game to Sonic is apparently something that I lack experience in properly rating (as adum's post completely put me on ice). I'll say 55:45, but if it's 60:40 for most of you all, then that's fine with me, too.

I personally think 55-45 but I am going with the consensus.

 

[Kataefi]

It's definitely cool ^^ I find it a bit hard to read because the pictures are so small =( And try and get the same colours as mine if you can =D

Btw I've decided to turn my thread into a guide, because it's essentially turning into the same as yours lol, so when all the matchups are finished being discussed here then my thread will just be an indepth guide into her matchups with summaries and stuff linking here.

Or shall I use my thread as rediscussions? Let me know ^^

 

[Chis]

It's not 60:40, but even if you put it 100:0 it still wont change the actual match up

Also,

Off topic:

Sonic boards right? Since there's no Sonic.

 

[GodAtHand]

The chances of finding the 100% correct actual summary is like... 0%. Of course that statistic was just made up, but honestly its probably like 62.8 - 37.2 Zelda... But 60-40 should suffice for the sake of matchup threads everywhere.

And Sonic is not on that matchup summary because Zelda's just don't have to worry about him and his crappy priority and crappy-crappiness.

 

[RoyalBlood]

It's not 60:40, but even if you put it 100:0 it still wont change the actual match up

Also,



Sonic boards right? Since there's no Sonic.

XD *facepalm* I'm so stupid XD lololololol

Yes I stole it from the Sonic boards

@Kataefi: Too much work, yours is clearly better also rediscussions in your thread sounds great

offtopic/

 

[ROOOOY!]

I've read the last two pages of this thread, and the only reason I've seen Zelda given an advantage is because of "lol priority." I mean whatever, yeah, I'm undecided on this match-up, and wouldn't be too bothered if it was decided in Zelda's favour because I'd probably agree, but it's just the reasoning that's pathetic.
Not that it's any concern to me, but having "lollowprioritylollightweight" written as a summary will not help anybody coming into this thread expecting help. It's just that when the person wanting help gets into a match with a good Sonic (few and far between admittedly) then they're not going to know the match-up at all because people aren't going to be Spindashing from the other side of the stage at them so they're going to get *****.

For the interest in helping your boards, please write a proper summary.

To be honest, I haven't read EVERYTHING that's gone on so far, but I haven't seen a legitimate point for why Zelda is 60:40 yet.

I have offline experience of this match-up, and don't find it too bad. I can't see it being 60:40 unless I'm convinced (but then, I am 100% sure Sheik is not a 40:60 either lol, though the two of them together are bad for Sonic.) It's just playing defensive here that hurts Sonic.

Play patient.
Stay safe.
Use a condom