Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Jim Morrison]

*Spinshot to FF-B-air over STH*

 

[DMG]

you're silly. I said it's at least 55:45 all things considered. he can't camp his absolute best until he gets a damage advantage. WITH a damage advantage and camping it's about even, but until he gets that advantage it's zelda's matchup anyway. when you average out "advantage zelda" and "even" you get out "small advantage zelda"

With a damage lead and camping, it is greatly in his favor. Not even, not close to even, but strongly in his favor. Averaging it out just isn't accurate, considering 6+ minutes can be spent on camping compared to the 1 minute or under getting a lead. That, and I don't think Zelda would have that strong, if any, advantage over Wario face to face.

Camping swings it veryyy much in Wario's favor. This is his best strategy once he gets a lead. Getting a lead is not that hard to do either. It turns a pretty even matchup into "Oh f*** there he goes I will have trouble hitting him period."

also. stages don't go on forever. once zelda corners wario he's not going to be able to keep running away.

Lol thinking so 2 dimensional. As if Wario is only restricted to safely traveling in one direction.

Wario can cross over and go towards the other side. He can boost smash over there, airdodge through you, jump over, etc. Even on a stage like FD he can do this. Zelda does not restrict him/corner him very well.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

whatever

*Spinshot to FF-B-air over STH*

expect to get Usmashed since it comes out faster than your bair and hits a hell of a lot harder.

 

[Jim Morrison]

It doesn't if Sonics spinshot is spaced properly. It goes over you, spacing the B-air exactly right, and you're not going to U-smash me out of Spinshot while you're using D-tilt.

Ah well, I'll just go with you. Yea, Sonic can't approach, obvious 60:40.

 

[Kataefi]

She's vulnerable in the air when she's above you. Anywhere else in the air and it's a potential sweetspot.

He's going to get caught sooner or later if he's camping. Likewise he's going to eventually hit her if she's camping him instead with smashes and tilts if she's at a lead.

 

[DMG]

He's going to get caught sooner or later if he's camping. Likewise he's going to eventually hit her if she's camping him instead with smashes and tilts if she's at a lead.

The difference between the two is how hard it is to approach the other.

Zelda sucks at approaching, and Wario is very hard to hit while he is running away.

Wario is fine at approaching, and Zelda can't run away/camp like Wario can.

They aren't comparably equal because Wario is better at both things. Zelda can't play a hit and run game, and she can't approach well. Wario can do both fairly well.

If you think Wario can be caught that easily, then look at Zelda's running speed. Look at her air game. Even just looking at that and comparing it to Wario's air speed and his air game, you can tell she will have a hard time hitting him.

Cmon guys, it's not like I'm making an unreasonable claim... If she was like Marth (good running speed, good air game) then I would be stupid asserting he could camp her this well. But she isn't, she is a very defensive based character that loses most matchups where she is forced to approach quite a bit more than she defends. She has bad matchups vs Marth, MK, Snake, etc partly because when she gets down, she has to approach. She's not good at doing that lol.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Don't DARE TO

We're in SONIC NOW

Ice Climbers finished

Gawd I can't believe how much do I need to write to get on date >_> Stupid summaries ;_;

2 hours *shoots self* Oh well ^_^

Sonic discussion GO!

EDIT :: @ Mr. DMG Go discuss it to Kataefi's thread or make a new thread on the Zelda boards not in here please ;3

SAME TO THE OTHER ZELDAS!! >:l

 

[DMG]

Don't DARE TO

We're in SONIC NOW

Ice Climbers finished

Gawd I can't believe how much do I need to write to get on date >_> Stupid summaries ;_;

2 hours *shoots self* Oh well ^_^

Sonic discussion GO!

EDIT :: @ Mr. DMG Go discuss it to Kataefi's thread or make a new thread on the Zelda boards not in here please ;3

SAME TO THE OTHER ZELDAS!! >:l

K, I shall rant over there.

Sonic... 60:40.

 

[-Mars-]

The difference between the two is how hard it is to approach the other.

Zelda sucks at approaching, and Wario is very hard to hit while he is running away.

Wario is fine at approaching, and Zelda can't run away/camp like Wario can.

They aren't comparably equal because Wario is better at both things. Zelda can't play a hit and run game, and she can't approach well. Wario can do both fairly well.

If you think Wario can be caught that easily, then look at Zelda's running speed. Look at her air game. Even just looking at that and comparing it to Wario's air speed and his air game, you can tell she will have a hard time hitting him.

Cmon guys, it's not like I'm making an unreasonable claim... If she was like Marth (good running speed, good air game) then I would be stupid asserting he could camp her this well. But she isn't, she is a very defensive based character that loses most matchups where she is forced to approach quite a bit more than she defends. She has bad matchups vs Marth, MK, Snake, etc partly because when she gets down, she has to approach. She's not good at doing that lol.

Honestly if this was really happening to me.....I would play Zelda if I had a lead and if I got down I would switch to Sheik. I know this doesn't have much to do with the Zelda-Wario individual matchup, but at least Zelda has the luxury of pressing down b and solving these problems.

 

[Kataefi]

I agree with you! But she has lingering hitboxes for airdodges - I guarantee Nayru's or nair will be hitting you out of airdodges. And teleport cancelling speeds her up. This isn't a **** matchup for wario. I'd put this at his slight advantage. Brawl is slowly getting worse and worse with stuff like this =(

(Also the stuff below is going sound a little farfetched but I mean it genuinely and not sarcastically or anything and would like to know if the strategies work =) )

If you're going to camp with airdodges - I'm going to condition you so that you airdodge and then I make my move with something like uair, nair, nayru's, or a sweetspot, and from then on it's just a matter of building momentum. It's not all -- 'O look he's running away I'm gonna mindlessly chase him and attack, O look he's airdodged through me I'm going to chase him some more' etc etc etc... She's going to mix it up by delaying some actions and baiting you into airdodging yourself.

Her airspeed isn't bad (You make her sound like DDD! lmao) ^^ Wario's is definitely faster, but her airspeed isn't all that bad. In fact, could she camp against you? (genuine question ^^) Wario has poor range - if she starts SH airdodging all over the place what are you going to do to hit her? You'll be able to reach her of course, but what move would you use to hit her? Considering she can land and immediately cancel that lag into USmash or whatever which outprioritises your moveset, how exactly are you going to hit her when she starts camping against you and playing ultra ultra safe?

What if she starts FWing all over the place with a lead, or gains a lead, hangs on the ledge, and starts Fwing into the ledge over and over. That's not abusing invincibility frames to such a strong extent, she's still using a viable strategy. If she did this Wario actually can't touch her. I could do this until the counter goes down and you wouldn't be able to do anything...

EDIT:: sorry royal I'll repost this in the other thread lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It doesn't if Sonics spinshot is spaced properly. It goes over you, spacing the B-air exactly right, and you're not going to U-smash me out of Spinshot while you're using D-tilt.

Ah well, I'll just go with you. Yea, Sonic can't approach, obvious 60:40.

Dtilt retracts quickly enough to USmash before you can bair unless the zelda accidentally buffers an extra dtilt.

can't tell if you're being serious or not.

whatever. he can't.

he has to bait to get inside. he's good at baiting and he's hard to shake once he penetrates, but he's easier for zelda to kill than vice versa and it's troublesome for him to get inside of us.

I'd say no less than 55:45 Zelda but 60:40 sounds good. he penetrates well if he's baiting well, but if he isn't, he's probably dying a lot.

 

[DMG]

Honestly if this was really happening to me.....I would play Zelda if I had a lead and if I got down I would switch to Sheik. I know this doesn't have much to do with the Zelda-Wario individual matchup, but at least Zelda has the luxury of pressing down b and solving these problems.

I do think Shiek does a bit better than Zelda, it's a weird trade off.

Shiek can sometimes stop the camping with Needles and she is pretty fast herself when she needs to be. Where she really suffers is trying to kill Wario, she has trouble recovering, and she can't Ftilt lock him since he can pull out his bike and she will pick it up the next time she tries to Ftilt.

I would say... maybe 60:40 for Wario on that one? I probably wouldn't try too hard camping her, I like fighting Shiek face to face. I dunno, she would do a lot better if she either killed better or lived longer.

 

[-Mars-]

I do think Shiek does a bit better than Zelda, it's a weird trade off.

Shiek can sometimes stop the camping with Needles and she is pretty fast herself when she needs to be. Where she really suffers is trying to kill Wario, she has trouble recovering, and she can't Ftilt lock him since he can pull out his bike and she will pick it up the next time she tries to Ftilt.

I would say... maybe 60:40 for Wario on that one? I probably wouldn't try too hard camping her, I like fighting Shiek face to face. I dunno, she would do a lot better if she either killed better or lived longer.

The Wario-Sheik matchup is fun as hell to play. I really don't have my mind set on a specific ratio right at this moment with the matchup........but it's not too bad for Sheik.

I'm aware that you can't tilt lock Wario so I would focus on small ftilt to utilt and ftilt to dsmash mini combos to get my ftilt properly decayed to set up for the tipper.

I think utilt beats most of Wario's approaches though and Sheik just has an overall faster moveset. I also wouldn't hesitate to whip the chain out every now and again.

It's also easier to land grabs as Sheik than it is for most characters....even though Wario can be extremely difficult to grab. Grab release to tipper kills pretty early though and I might consider doing it every time I land a grab considerig the tipper does like 30%.

I agree that Sheiks recovery is pretty bad as long as the other player is competent enough to always grab the ledge to prevent her from using the chain tether for her recovery.

Wario kills Sheik really early though.....so it probably is a bit in his favor but it's not much.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Gosh Marsulas




What did I say

And to complete your little fun you're talking about............Sheik WTF?

Now please read the posts above and/or contribute some Sonic discussion >_>

I don't do because I don't know the matchup very well

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Gosh Marsulas




What did I say

And to complete your little fun you're talking about............Sheik WTF?

Now please read the posts above and/or contribute some Sonic discussion >_>

I don't do because I don't know the matchup very well

sonic's more or less already done in another thread.


wario is more interesting though, really, I think it's just player superiority tilting DMG's view.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Then post the thread instead of just saying, please

And this thread has rules if you haven't noticed T_T

And as I said before, GO TO KATAEFI'S THREAD to discuss Wario

A matchup is rediscussed once all the other ones are finished

So just you know

 

[-Mars-]

Honestly who cares what we discuss? I could care less about discussing about Sonic

 

[Kataefi]

What is interesting is that the wario players have realised that camping is very effective. Can Zelda camp in this way?

1) She has a good airdodge.
2) As much as it sounds boring as hell, what if she starts constantly teleporting into the ledge both as an attack and as a semi-stall, and on occasion warp passed those teetering at the edge to grab the other ledge on the other side? Could this be a viable camp strategy when we have the lead?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Honestly who cares what we discuss? I could care less about discussing about Sonic

granted, however, wario wasn't going anywhere. it was a "yes I can" "no you can't" "but I wantz to" argument.

 

[Boxob.]

61:39, Sonic.

 

[DMG]

61:39, Sonic.

I disagree, 59:41 Mario.

Amidoinitrite?

 

[Boxob.]

No, you're not.

But really, Zelda's a piece of steak for us.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Just camp half a FD distance away and wait for Zelda to move. Seriously, use Dins from half a FD away and you get hit, wait for us to approach, we taunt, you come approach us, our Sonic trolling has succeeded. I'd say half FD away is Sonics safest spot. Approaching is too hard, so wait till Zelda either messes up Dins or approaches you.

 

[GreyFox86]

Hey hey no steak talk until Espy shows his face here.

Also, RoyalBlood is right about the talk about Wario. Despite the fact that it maybe an interesting matchup, more so than Sonic or Bowser, this is still a matchup topic that has moved on to Sonic.

Plus its really congesting the topic anyways. I just really wanna know how to deal with this matchup here seeing that I go here and not the Sonic boards.

 

[Boxob.]

Sonic is fast, and you are not.

You're easy to combo, and we are not.

You can't camp us effectively.

You have no approach.

If anyone wants to wifi me to get a feel of how the match goes, let me know here.

 

[DMG]

Sonic is fast, and you are not.

You're easy to combo, and we are not.

You can't camp us effectively.

You have no approach.

If anyone wants to wifi me to get a feel of how the match goes, let me know here.

That actually sounds pretty accurate.

Lol does Sonic have the advantage over Zelda? He just might, I'm gonna look into this myself. :0

Also, Boxob, I was doin it wrong, I needed moar Steak. Oh, and pass the A1 sauce. Or else Zelda has the advantage.

 

[Chis]

*shakes heads disappointingly at Sonic mainers*

 

[ExCeL 52]

Im sorry but your overall conclusion on Zelda Vs. Peach is disgracing me as a Peach Main. It should be 65: 50 Zelda or 60: 50 Zelda.... Peach doesn't have the upper hand.

 

[DMG]

Im sorry but your overall conclusion on Zelda Vs. Peach is disgracing me as a Peach Main. It should be 65: 50 Zelda or 60: 50 Zelda.... Peach doesn't have the upper hand.

Dair to Footstool to Bair Lock to Free Grab/Fsmash/Usmash. That is pretty potent, go use it

 

[Cinos_Gohegdeh]

ive never faced another Shiek or Zelda user.

 

[Jim Morrison]

lmao, 60:50? 65:50? lrn2matchupnumbers.

 

[Trillion]

My experiences against Zelda mostly come from free for all situations, which would be of little use here, but I have a little one on one match up experience. The experience I have does come from a Zelda main though, so maybe it will be useful.

Zelda's forward smash and up smash really hurt sonic from my experience. The forward smash seems to always outreach sonic's spin dashes and dash attack and the up smash can hit him even off of the ground and can kill at a decent percent (110% or so). The same goes for sonic's aerials. Those smashes can outreach him pretty much each time. Zelda needs to be very careful here though. Sonic's fake out mindgames with his spin dashes can really mess her up sometimes. If a zelda wiffs an attack, then sonic will almost always be able to punish her due to the relatively long after lag on all of her attacks. She also can't use Din's fire to force an approach on Sonic. Sonic is too fast on the ground for her to do that. Not to say that it will never work, I just feel as though it's not a very safe option.

Zelda's aerial game is not as good as sonic's though. Her fair and bair don't have enough speed and distance to beat out Sonic. However, it is also not easy to juggle zelda with sonic. Using the Nayru's Love as you fall can usually provide a hitbox that is large enough that sonic can not penetrate it easily. His fair will almost never reach her in this situation. Dair can, but an occurance where that will happen is pretty rare. Bair can not reach through to her through the middle, but I think thath e can hit her through the top and bottom of it. A well placed up air from Sonic can reach her and that is one of Zelda's biggest problems. A well timed Farorie's Wind can get her out of harm's way of the up air, but the landing lag can get her punished just as badly. To avoid being destroyed by up air stuff, a zelda needs to mix up mid air dodges and farorie's wind in my opinion.

It's also very hard for Zelda to KO sonic off the side of the screen. Again, her fair and bair rarely will beat sonic from my experience and her f smash needs to reach like 145% or something to be powerful enough. Of course, it pretty much goes without saying that Zelda will rarely ever KO sonic off the bottom of the screen (Don't worry its not just a problem with zelda, its just that it doesn't happen much to sonic.) That being said. If you get the electricy powerful version of her dair (that i recently just learned existed), then, you just might be able to spike him hard enough sometimes. For Zelda to get the kill, the best way is to aim for the top of the screen using up smashes and up airs. The huge hit box on the up air is very helpful for this.

All in all, if you can read a sonic well enough and if you can find ways to use zelda's larger hitboxes to beat out sonic's attacks, than Zelda can beat sonic, But if you are against a smart sonic who has a lot of experience and mindgames up his sleeves, than you are in for one very rough battle. I feel like this match up is in Sonic's favor for the exact reasons that Boxob listed, but a good Zelda can probably pull it off.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda does not Farore's past Sonic to reach the ground when she's above him. She moves away from him and times airdodges to easily dodge anything that can be thrown at her at very tall heights and consistently (yet not perfectly) dodge at lower heights. Also, Zelda does not dog fight other characters in the air with her aerials. She SH's them and uses them as punishing tools. Hit her shield, eat a fair/bair if it wasn't safe. Fall for an airdodge, catch an uair. That's a player's fault, but the point is to show how Zelda's aerials are mainly used. Most characters can beat Zelda in the air if she's foolish enough to try and fight back like she's everyone else. She's not going to willingly do that often enough.

Also, having a lot of mindgames shouldn't be why a character has an advantage over another. If your opponent is stronger than you, has more range than you, kills earlier than you, can deal with your attacks easily, etc. yet you have tons of mindgames, YOU might win the fight, but it doesn't really seal the deal as for who has an advantage at close-range, long-distance, etc.


Also, Zelda players, if Sonic is rolling your way, time a dtilt. You should be low enough to dodge anything if he goes over you. If dtilt connects, either Sonic gets hit or something clanks. All that matters is you're not getting hit.

 

[GodAtHand]

Do the Sonic's really think that they have the advantage or are they just trying to be facetious? I can't tell if they are serious or not...

Honestly this matchup is NOT in Sonic's favor. Really though what does he have against a Zelda besides the ability to run around for a while and be a minor inconvenience to her.

 

[Chis]

Oh yes Zeldas, please do that.

It's like some Zelda know nothing about Sonic and the other way round.

Read the discussion in the link I post in the previous page.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Also, having a lot of mindgames shouldn't be why a character has an advantage over another. If your opponent is stronger than you, has more range than you, kills earlier than you, can deal with your attacks easily, etc. yet you have tons of mindgames, YOU might win the fight, but it doesn't really seal the deal as for who has an advantage at close-range, long-distance, etc.

THIS

This is why Sonic has so many terrible matchups and why this can't possibly be Sonic advantage. 55:45 at most though. But Sonic definitly has the advantage at mid range and close range :O Zelda just has the smashes that put up a wall. You can trick them into using one, but that's mindgames again, which aren't taken into account.

EDIT:
SPOILER: We're not serious about advantage, Boxob was just being lolish. But really, Sonics can't agree on 60:40

 

[Brinzy]

They're serious as can be.

I mean, it's certainly not an auto-win for Zelda, but in their favor is kinda blasphemous.

 

[GodAtHand]

From personal experience the first couple of times you fight a Sonic at a tournament or other wise the matchup MIGHT be 50:50, but as soon as you learn what exactly Sonic can do and what Zelda has to stop him it goes straight to Zelda's favor.

I would say 55-45 Zelda IF Sonic could kill us well. But even with how light Zelda is he only has one move to K.O. with on the ground and it is not fast nor long reaching, and the ground is where Zelda will be staying the majority of the battle.

60-40 Zelda in my opinion.

 

[Jim Morrison]

You'll be surprised how often run > screech stop behind char > turnaround F-smash works. You'll fall for it O_o.

 

[Chis]

Sonic does have kill moves, this isn't june >_>

Fsmash, Dsmash & Bair.