Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[-Mars-]

I never doubted your player skill and I value your input, I also believe Wario has an advantage and i'm not shrugging off your statements....... I really just want to know if it is truly that hard. Could you provide the vids of Fiction doing this?

 

[RoyalBlood]

ummmm Because there's something called matchups?

Why does Zelda does better at Yoshi than ZSS :o ZSS approaches better right

There's something called character counterpick too ;D

What happened to Bowser >:l

 

[DMG]

I never doubted your player skill and I value your input, I also believe Wario has an advantage and i'm not shrugging off your statements....... I really just want to know if it is truly that hard. Could you provide the vids of Fiction doing this?

Well I just talked to Fiction actually on AIM a few minutes ago and he said they didn't record the matches, to his knowledge. They were running a live stream, which was AMAZING to watch them play, and apparently you can't record and do a live stream at the same time (although I am pretty sure you could just record the live stream being played onto a computer, dunno.)

The only thing I can thing of to substitute those vids is me/Fiction playing sometime and recording it in tourney, I dunno when the next time I can play will be though. I am a little sad because those matches would have been great material for Wario vs Dedede, G&W, Snake, Falco, and a few other characters. I'm hoping maybe the other boards saw him play.

 

[MrEh]

I saw those matches. Fiction is a total monster.

Fiction definately knows how to be patient. Great camping, and excellent counterpicks. (Brinstar+Wario=****) Oh, and that Ice Climber choice was so awesome.

What happened to Bowser >:l

No one likes him! BWAHAHA!!!

But seriously, if you guys had an arguments against the Bowser matchup, I'd be glad to contribute more. Just say the word.

 

[DMG]

I saw those matches. Fiction is a total monster.

Fiction definately knows how to be patient. Great camping, and excellent counterpicks. (Brinstar+Wario=****) Oh, and that Ice Climber choice was so awesome.

Yes he did fantastic, I saw DSF go Snake on Brinstar and I was like "Watch Fiction fly" lol.

Wario on Brinstar vs Snake is sooo hard for Snake to win, near impossible. He also gave his Dedede trouble on Smashville with that platform.

 

[MrEh]

Yes he did fantastic, I saw DSF go Snake on Brinstar and I was like "Watch Fiction fly" lol.

Wario runs circles around everyone on that stage.

He also gave his Dedede trouble on Smashville with that platform.

Living proof that Wario can be hard as hell to grab.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't play wario, that was pyro's job but, in his words (so near as I can remember):

"Wario did noticably better when I ran away and waited for Zelda to approach. But it's not like I could avoid everything and once you DID get the lead it was complete hell for me to try to get any sort of advantage back from you. Wario might have good priority but zelda has great priority and much better range. Unless you made a mistake I just couldn't get inside of you. I'd rather play DDD against zelda because at least he has backthrow, and I hate playing DDD against Zelda. But at least he didn't get COMPLETELY shut out"

 

[DMG]

I don't play wario, that was pyro's job but, in his words (so near as I can remember):

"Wario did noticably better when I ran away and waited for Zelda to approach. But it's not like I could avoid everything and once you DID get the lead it was complete hell for me to try to get any sort of advantage back from you. Wario might have good priority but zelda has great priority and much better range. Unless you made a mistake I just couldn't get inside of you. I'd rather play DDD against zelda because at least he has backthrow, and I hate playing DDD against Zelda. But at least he didn't get COMPLETELY shut out"

Hmm... I'm interested to see vids of him playing and camping.

I also would like to see him approach, it sounds like either he isn't too sure of the camping mechanics/subtleties or that he gets too frustrated trying to approach Zelda or comes in too predictably...

If you can get vids up, that would be great. I will try to get some vids up myself playing if I can, dunno how soon I can do it though.

But yeah, even thinking about it from an in-game perspective, I don't see Zelda catching Wario if he moves faster in the air than she can run. He also moves faster in the air than she does. That, and he can change directions without losing momentum. If Wario is trying to jump over Zelda and she is close to him on the ground, she would have to try and jump backwards if she was running forward if she wants a shot at hitting him, and if Wario moves back the other way then there's no way Zelda can change directions in time.

Movement wise, this is very possible when combined with airdodging, fast falling, changing directions, and even sometimes counter attacking when they are open and then running some more.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

stuff.

I'm sure he's not aware of most of the subtleties in the game, but the general opinion is that he's better than me and he still tends to lose the wario vs. zelda matchup.

generally speaking I get, and hold onto, the early advantage so camping for him never comes up.

when he DOES get the advantage, once he gets to an edge, I'll either Space Fsmash, Usmash or Nair which all have lingering hitboxes and better priority than wario. that really is normally enough to catch him. he can run away okay, but the problem is. well. let's compare him to DDD.
DDD has a generally accpeted worse matchup against zelda because of what she can do to him while he's on offense. But if Zelda gets stupidly agressive, he can sheildgrab her everything and punish with his ridiculously overpowered backthrow. Wario doesn't have the same punishing mechanisms... really. Zelda can't do all the scary stuff to him, but he's a lot safer to approach. Unlike a lot of charcters, it's not like zelda's gonna take a lot of damage trying to chase down wario. it's just a little frustrating, but, as long as zelda doesn't leave herself open with reckless approaches, wario playing run away really just stalls things.

Zelda playing defense is a lot more eventful since pretty much every exchange SOMEBODY at least ends up taking damage. it was really not a bad matchup at all though.

when I saw wario approach, Upsmash, Uptilt, Fsmash, SH -> nair or spotdodge-> Dtilt/Dsmash beat out any approach. And it wasn't like it was exceptionally hard to guess either; most of wario's approaches could be beatent out with more than one of zelda's options and, with patience, some of his approaches telegraph themselves enough that it's easy to pick out a counter.

maybe someone I'm not as experienced against would trick me into messing up a bit more, but I'm still a firm believer that, without being tricked, it's gonna be darn hard for wario to hit zelda.

as for videoes... the matches always last longer than 3 minutes and we don't have recording equipment.

 

[DTP]

Oh wow, awesome stuff so far =D

I've been debating on whether or not I should start using Zelda again. I miss her......

 

[MorphedChaos]

Sonic, if you fixed your online, I'll do you with Wario (Or any good zelda for that matter, I need practice anyway.)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sonic, if you fixed your online, I'll do you with Wario (Or any good zelda for that matter, I need practice anyway.)

my online works. But it's college.

the lag is never perfect but it can be good or bad. It all depends on luck.

 

[Bandit]

DMG, your problem is that you assume Zelda will approach. You have to get inside of her first to get a lead, and her defense is one of the best in the game. Regardless, I think you proved your "theory craft" argument when you stated that "characters who approach better than Zelda can't catch Wario so what makes you think she can." If you had played a Zelda, you would know the situation is different. We aren't going to chase your jumpy butt around the stage; instead, we are going to stalk Wario, throwing Dins when he gets outside of punish range, and wait for him to make his move. There is no reason, unless the Zelda is behind, to chase after Wario like you imagine.

And, if we get behind, there is the option of switching to Sheik. At that point, we are back in business again.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

DMG, your problem is that you assume Zelda will approach. You have to get inside of her first to get a lead, and her defense is one of the best in the game. Regardless, I think you proved your "theory craft" argument when you stated that "characters who approach better than Zelda can't catch Wario so what makes you think she can." If you had played a Zelda, you would know the situation is different. We aren't going to chase your jumpy butt around the stage; instead, we are going to stalk Wario, throwing Dins when he gets outside of punish range, and wait for him to make his move. There is no reason, unless the Zelda is behind, to chase after Wario like you imagine.

And, if we get behind, there is the option of switching to Sheik. At that point, we are back in business again.

I don't even think that's wholly necisarry. IF wario gets a damage advantage, just approach ALL THAT YOU NEED TO with zelda. Seriously, she outranges wario enough that she can get into poke range and it's not like he can punish her poking very well.

my asssertion is that Zelda's defenive game > Wario's offenisve game. and while wario might have an easier time with zelda if Zelda goes on offense and he goes on defense, it's not as big an advantage as if it's the other way around... and he cannot camp. it's that simple. he needs a damage/stock advanatge or he can't do anything at all to make zelda approach.

and it's **** hard for him to GET that stock advantage because zelda is so hard for him to approach.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Well, if he gets the waft built up, that outranges and outspeeds all of Zelda's moves (the non-laggy ones anyway.)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well, if he gets the waft built up, that outranges and outspeeds all of Zelda's moves (the non-laggy ones anyway.)

heheh. well I mean okay fine. except the waft is um... only useable once avery few minutes. not that it's not still good, but, I mean... if wario's gonna have to rely on something that he can only use a couple time a match.... well that doesn't sound good.

 

[MrEh]

I wish you guys saw Fiction play...

Like, 1/3 of his kills were from a Waft. XD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I wish you guys saw Fiction play...

Like, 1/3 of his kills were from a Waft. XD

that would make sense no? he's got a waft or two each match...

 

[MrEh]

that would make sense no? he's got a waft or two each match...

You should've seen the extreme camping that happened. It was hilarious.

But yeah, he got a few wafts each match.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

are we on bowser, Wario, llamacario? im now lost

 

[MrEh]

are we on bowser, Wario, llamacario? im now lost

Still on Bowser, but there's a lot of Wario talk. XD

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah, i was wondering did we go back to wario or are we still on bowser and hes just napping atm. also when is the earliest Zelda can die from Bowsers sideB w/ DI and how do you DI it?

 

[GwJ]

I'm pretty sure you just DI towards to stage.

 

[MrEh]

yeah, i was wondering did we go back to wario or are we still on bowser and hes just napping atm. also when is the earliest Zelda can die from Bowsers sideB w/ DI and how do you DI it?

Earliest? Hmm....

Well, the Klaw will normally launch you at roughly 45 degrees. With DI, you can make it launch you almost perfectly horizontal, or upwards to about 20 degrees. Of course, your DI will affect your survivability and it depends on the stage.

On Final Destinaton, a Klaw will probably kill at 130% with good DI.


If you want to DI the suicide, then just push towards the stage.

 

[DMG]

DMG, your problem is that you assume Zelda will approach. You have to get inside of her first to get a lead, and her defense is one of the best in the game. Regardless, I think you proved your "theory craft" argument when you stated that "characters who approach better than Zelda can't catch Wario so what makes you think she can." If you had played a Zelda, you would know the situation is different. We aren't going to chase your jumpy butt around the stage; instead, we are going to stalk Wario, throwing Dins when he gets outside of punish range, and wait for him to make his move. There is no reason, unless the Zelda is behind, to chase after Wario like you imagine.

And, if we get behind, there is the option of switching to Sheik. At that point, we are back in business again.

Zelda HAS to approach or attack when she is behind, otherwise she loses with a % or stock deficit. Once Wario gets the lead, he can camp her. He forces her to approach, she stinks at approaching, he either punishes her approach by dodging it, or if he can, just counter attack it and then run. The fact is, when she does have to approach, she is in real trouble. Her tools to do so are subpar, which explains why she is mainly a defensive character who wants her opponents to approach. And that is fine, it works vs a lot of characters, but against characters that force her to approach she struggles.

Zelda stinks at approaching, she doesn't have a good enough projectile to hunt Wario down to compensate for her lack of good approaching tools. Falco's Laser's have trouble hitting a campy Wario, Din's is no exception.

Din's is nearly USELESS in this matchup in any significant form. Utterly useless. Best use is for edgeguarding, and even then it is fairly easy to dodge.

As for Shiek, we already have a pretty good matchup vs her, even with Camping set aside. There are a lot of misunderstandings in that matchup, and a lot of incorrect information regarding what Shiek can do to Wario. It is certainly not an easy matchup for Shiek.

 

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

yeah, i was wondering did we go back to wario or are we still on bowser and hes just napping atm. also when is the earliest Zelda can die from Bowsers sideB w/ DI and how do you DI it?

I don't think you DI it at all. But if I do, I die depending on what part of the stage I am on or how high the platform is,etc

If center stage, I DI Up and to the stage. If in the side of the stage I DI straight up. But it also seems that no matter where you DI, it helps you die faster, so I am starting to think you just don't DI at all. Break out of the hit stun with something and then fast fall and aim the stick to the stage..

 

[MrEh]

I don't think you DI it at all. But if I do, I die depending on what part of the stage I am on or how high the platform is,etc

If center stage, I DI Up and to the stage. If in the side of the stage I DI straight up. But it also seems that no matter where you DI, it helps you die faster, so I am starting to think you just don't DI at all. Break out of the hit stun with something and then fast fall and aim the stick to the stage..

In all seriousness, the angle that the Klaw normally launches you at is probably the safest for you. Just momentum cancel the best you can.

The Klaw probably won't be used for killing, since it'll probably be stale the entire match. It's definately good for racking up the damage though.

 

[-Mars-]

Zelda HAS to approach or attack when she is behind, otherwise she loses with a % or stock deficit. Once Wario gets the lead, he can camp her. He forces her to approach, she stinks at approaching, he either punishes her approach by dodging it, or if he can, just counter attack it and then run. The fact is, when she does have to approach, she is in real trouble. Her tools to do so are subpar, which explains why she is mainly a defensive character who wants her opponents to approach. And that is fine, it works vs a lot of characters, but against characters that force her to approach she struggles.

Zelda stinks at approaching, she doesn't have a good enough projectile to hunt Wario down to compensate for her lack of good approaching tools. Falco's Laser's have trouble hitting a campy Wario, Din's is no exception.

Din's is nearly USELESS in this matchup in any significant form. Utterly useless. Best use is for edgeguarding, and even then it is fairly easy to dodge.


As for Shiek, we already have a pretty good matchup vs her, even with Camping set aside. There are a lot of misunderstandings in that matchup, and a lot of incorrect information regarding what Shiek can do to Wario. It is certainly not an easy matchup for Shiek.

Zelda struggles approaching against characters that can throw out tons of projectiles and insanely ranged moves.......Wario doesn't fit this criteria. Your idea of Zelda being horrible at approaching in this matchup is Wario running away like a *****.....which btw means Zelda is taking no risks whatsoever and her approaching is not a detriment in the match. You still have to at least try to play some honorable form of Smash in the beginning of the match and if we have a lead at any time during the set.....we have the moveset to make it be a fairly even matchup. I agree that Dins is useless here however.

The Sheik statement was pretty funny to me. I would love to see what you can do to a chain camping Sheik on BF without a waft.

EDIT: btw, this new running away stuff you Wario players are raving about is all good and dandy until people realize how close it is to ledgestalling and TO's start to not allow it at their tourny's. Sigh, I really don't want Brawl to turn into a boring pathetic game like this......but if it must then I guess it must.

 

[DMG]

The Sheik statement was pretty funny to me. I would love to see what you can do to a chain camping Sheik on BF without a waft.

Throw a bike at her.

Airdodge into her, shield grab her. She only has 2-3 frames to punish the landing lag.

EDIT: btw, this new running away stuff you Wario players are raving about is all good and dandy until people realize how close it is to ledgestalling and TO's start to not allow it at their tourny's. Sigh, I really don't want Brawl to turn into a boring pathetic game like this......but if it must then I guess it must.

How is it like ledge stalling/camping? Think about it:

1. We aren't trying to abuse invincibility frames that the edge can give you. We are working with what the game gives our character and trying to maximize the results.

2. There is no concrete definition/rule of stalling. What rule are you going to impose on Wario? No running for more than 1 minute? What if he comes in close contact with the opponent, but they miss cause he airdodges or weaves away? There's no good way to define this as Stalling, even if it WAS stalling.

I don't care if it makes the game boring, pathetic, etc. All that I know is that Wario becomes a very good character with this strategy. In fact, I think he can do this to Zelda relatively easily, but it seems like the Zelda boards disagree. What I haven't heard yet is how she approaches Wario once he does this. Who cares if her defensive wall is good, what does she do when it doesn't work? This is where she fails.

 

[GreyFox86]

Nice, I like how Bowser is still the topic and Wario is still the talk.

Nothing against the talk but I thought you guys were done with the talk about Wario and Zelda. =/

 

[DMG]

Nice, I like how Bowser is still the topic and Wario is still the talk.

Nothing against the talk but I thought you guys were done with the talk about Wario and Zelda. =/

Well Bowser has a 45:55 or 40:60 matchup vs her, most of his stuff has been talked about. Most people also agreed on those numbers, but Wario we are still not on an agreement.

Let's just use the remaining time on Bowser for Wario. :0

 

[Kataefi]

Wait so is bowser 55-45 or 60-40? I really can't make up my mind >.> Let us summon guru MrEh

 

[MrEh]

Wait so is bowser 55-45 or 60-40? I really can't make up my mind >.> Let us summon guru MrEh

I really have no idea.

The only really good Zelda user here is DarkMusician. (Sniperworm is good too, but he uses the Zelda/Shiek combo, so that messes with the matchup ratio.) I play him as much as I can, but it's very hard to tell how much of an advantage Zelda has, because DarkMusician is a naturally talented player to begin with. The difference of skill and character advantage is sort of blurred. Plus, since he's the only Zelda player I regularly play, it's not like I see different styles of play, although I do believe that DM's style is the best way to fight Bowser. (DM's Zelda is just too good. ^^)

Either 55-45 or 60-40 sounds like a realistic range though. I can't imagine it being any higher or lower anyway, so just take your pick. Bowser is used to having disadvantageous matchups, so don't feel bad if you decide to go with the 60-40.

 

[Kataefi]

I do believe it's 60:40 personally for me in my experience with bowsers =( and I half-feel bad for saying it because you're always so helpful! xD

I know I can land dtilts, it's just picking and choosing the right moments to invade bowser's fortress, quite literally. I suppose this matchup is hard to define because they are both punishers (in their style of play), and so it really does rely on one of them royally screwing everything up and for the other to capitalise and gain advantage.

 

[GreyFox86]

I'm fine with the 55:45 match-up.

 

[MrEh]

I do believe it's 60:40 personally for me in my experience with bowsers =(

That's fine. The matchup is probably either that or 55-45 anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

and I half-feel bad for saying it because you're always so helpful! xD

Nah, it's fine. Like I said earlier, the matchup really doesn't bother me all that much as long as it sounds near decent. If it was 65-35 or below, then I would start complaining. XD

 

[Kataefi]

Nope that would be silly ^^ We're not the pits

 

[MrEh]

Nope that would be silly ^^ We're not the pits

I seriously lol'ed. ^^

 

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

I fought some good Bowsers with my Zelda. And I think my Zelda is pretty good, and I can space like hell with her.

I have to say that much up seems to be in Zelda's favor. Spacing Nairs is a good way to get him inside it and get damage. and he is big too. it can even stab his shield for I have a few times.

I'm not sure how much of an edge Zelda has in this fight though.

 

[Kataefi]

drk.pch do you have any more videos? I really enjoyed your style as Zelda.