Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Villi]

Half of me doesn't care if all of Zelda's matchups are 90:10, the other half is waiting for this porn torrent to finish.

 

[DMG]

So I guess I am agreed with DMG. MK, DDD, Wario, Jiggs, and Kirby are all unhittable by us. It's a sad day for Zelda's metagame......we might as well change all of these matchups to 20-80's.

If you want to go by that logic, a lot of Zelda's matchups would be impossible.

Actually, most of those characters you can hit. They are good at reaching vertical height in the air but they suck at horizontal (save for Kirby, he's fairly fast and mobile). When Dedede or MK runs out of jumps, and is forced to land, you have a reasonable chance to hit them. You CAN actually run, shield, bait, etc and hit them, but with Wario his speed and mobility allows him to go in the air and just outspeed you horizontally. Now Kirby and MK I can see being a pain because they can Bair camp/Dair camp, but there is a better chance of hitting them based on your pure ability to travel as fast or faster than and catch them.

Edit:

Half of me doesn't care if all of Zelda's matchups are 90:10, the other half is waiting for this porn torrent to finish.

Lmao.

Half of me doesn't care if all of Wario's matchups are 90:10, the other half is waiting for this hentai torrent to finish. :0

 

[MorphedChaos]

Well, I found something out, its called Crouch canceling, not all characters can do it, but what it does is you crouch, then use a move, and the frames are cut IN HALF, So far it works for Zelda's Dtilt and MK's Ftilt( All 3 hits, it finishes in 9 frames O.o) Basically you have to, or how I do it, is cradle the control stick towards doing a Ftilt and Dtilt, and in the getting up/Crouching animations, you can abuse this.

And if you need video proof, I'll show you how MK does it, DANG is that Ftilt fast O.o

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

give Zelda a little credit DMG.

wario is slippery, but he's not invincible. so what if zelda doesn't move as unpredictably as him, if she has the damage advantage he's going to have just as hard a timeapproaching her.

and even if zelda has to approach, wario can't run away forever. Zelda's aerial movement speed is quite resectable, and she has a few attacks that linger and/or come out quite quickly. the stages don't just keep going on forever; if Wario wants to keep running away, he's going to have to go across zelda sometimes. It's just silly and insulting to suggest that zelda can't hit you.

if we made the assumptions about wario that you make about zelda then it'd probably be at least 80:20 in our favour. All we have to do is assume that you fail at mixing up approaches well enough to break our wall of absolute priority and all of the sudden the matchup becomes utterly impossible for Wario.

 

[Bandit]

I just love how DMG's strategy is to run around in a scared fashion going "oh please don't hurt me oh powerful princess!"

Complete loss of man points there.

 

[Kataefi]

So wario matchup is ___ ? DMG could be right! But then again how is wario going to get this stock lead in the first place? - if she just plays gay and spams fsmash / jab / usmash all over the place then how would he get inside her?

and bowser vs zelda is a lot more even though I believe Zelda has just the slight edge. I believe this could be true! I'm still more inclined to say around 60:40 or less for Zelda (but certainly no further) simply because I swear Bowser's fsmash is punishable with a quick bach SH din's - also nayrus tends to beat it out - and dtilt really isn't that hard to hit with - it only takes one trip to get a good 40+-% combo on him now =O =O =O

And he's larger than the sandbag! sweetspotting is not a problem! If Zelda gets bowser in the air she can juggle him for a very long time.

then again he's ultra heavy (though she's hard hitting), and he is a great punisher with great range ^^

@Ninjalink or anyone for that matter - I'm finding samus a real tough matchup. Do you guys have any quick tips?

 

[Brinzy]

Samus has nice tools for spacing but if you just predict when zair is coming at you and do your best to deal with other projectiles (as in, knowing when to use Nayru's), you've already gotten past most of the fight. Once you're up close, you can do pretty much whatever you want. Samus can kill, but she basically has to trick you into dying. That's how much trouble she has landing the killing blow. Once you get to around 120%, expect dtilt to make an appearance. Her tilts are pretty fast, but ftilt isn't the most threatening of moves, you can predict when dtilt is going to come out (unless they use it earlier) and utilt isn't fast.

Her aerials are good, but they don't wall Zelda at all. Usmash her if she gets too close to you. Go for lightning kicks.

Do not leave the stage against her. You'll lose. If the Samus you're facing uses the tether, let Samus grab the ledge and drop down and kill her. If she's going to use Up B, you can try an edgehog, but if you think you can't get the timing, just stay on the stage and throw Din's.

Employ the usual tricks to recover. If she grabs the ledge from you with her tether, Farore's Wind right on her. I scored a kill against a skilled Samus like this because I reappeared and edgehogged perfectly.

 

[Kataefi]

Thanks! I'll be sure to try these out next time. It's definitely the spam I have the most trouble with, and I often get knocked away only to be spammed at yet again.

There's so many things I'm trying to watch out for =/ And I find the charge shot really threatening also.

Maybe it's matchup inexperience!

 

[Brinzy]

It's inexperience, trust me.

 

[sniperworm]

So wait, are we still on Bowser or did we go back to Wario, what's the deal?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

we're still on bowser i thought. did anyone mention stages to take bowser to?

 

[Brinzy]

We're back to Bowser. Nothing was really made new on the Wario topic except for something theoretical that doesn't matter anyway.

 

[NinjaLink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h_mGvabqxw

zelda vs samus

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think good ol' battlefield is one of our better bets. I'm pretty sure the addition of all those platforms works in zelda's favour a lot moreso than Bowser's.

maybe Brinstar would be nice. but, with the power of Bowser's Fsamsh, I'd REALLY be wary of not sweetspotting the ledge.


for samus: Usmash, Lightning kicks and Nayru's can be the bane of samus' existance if employed correctly.

 

[RoyalBlood]

SHUT UP DMG!

SHUT UP ALL THE OTHER ZELDA TOO!

If you were not sure, then you should have said it

It's not the first time you do this in a matchup thread

Go away and discuss it in you thread then our matchup thread will rediscuss when the time comes

It's annoying Now go bowser discussion

Woot Edit becasue i went overboard ^_^ sorry

I has the devil POWAH!! :3

 

[DMG]

SHUT UP DMG!

SHUT UP ALL THE OTHER ZELDA TOO!

If you were not sure, then you should have said it

It's not the first time you do this in a matchup thread

Go away and discuss it in you thread then our matchup thread will rediscuss when the time comes

It's annoying Now go bowser discussion

Woot Edit becasue i went overboard ^_^ sorry

I has the devil POWAH!! :3

Lol sorry. K Last thing I will say about the matchup then: 60-40 or higher for Wario. Those are my last thoughts.

Now on to Bowser. Please continue, I won't beat the Wario discussion dead with a stick lol.

 

[RoyalBlood]

hmmm that sounded encouraging in the bad way T_T

Oh wellz I guess it's okay to discuss Wario AS LONG AS you discuss Bowser too Kk?

I just read a thread at the Wario Forums and OMG I'm gonna shoot myself ^_^ *overestimation*

On Bowser, who has the better ground game?

Who has the better air game? Bowser doesn't look very mobile in the air nor does Zelda but

How long is Bowser's jab? D:

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

bowser's jab has "enough" range. it's not OMG SUPER AMAZING, but it's definitely good for how quick it is. luckily zelda has faster options and longer ranged options, but the jab will still give you trouble.

Also Royal: Chill. matchup discussion is matchup discussion. just because we've ended the discussion doesn't mean the matchup becomes set in stone. though there was getting to be a rather large wario focus in the last page, it's still nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Lol sorry. K Last thing I will say about the matchup then: 60-40 or higher for Wario. Those are my last thoughts.

Now on to Bowser. Please continue, I won't beat the Wario discussion dead with a stick lol.

I'm sure your opinion of the matchup at least partially stems from you being a better wario than the competition that you play are zeldas. For the same reason I feel like the matchup is at least 60:40 ZELDA'S favour.

I can't remember the last time I lost to one and it's my best friend, pyrogamer's main. However nobody else sees it that way. even pyro says it's probably close, maybe slight advanatge to zelda. So, I mean, if everyone says its about 50:50, I'll accept it. but for all you feel it's 60:40 your advantage, I feel just as strongly that it's the opposite.

 

[DMG]

I'm sure your opinion of the matchup at least partially stems from you being a better wario than the competition that you play are zeldas. For the same reason I feel like the matchup is at least 60:40 ZELDA'S favour.

I can't remember the last time I lost to one and it's my best friend, pyrogamer's main. However nobody else sees it that way. even pyro says it's probably close, maybe slight advanatge to zelda. So, I mean, if everyone says its about 50:50, I'll accept it. but for all you feel it's 60:40 your advantage, I feel just as strongly that it's the opposite.

What we didn't consider before hand was Wario just camping with a lead. That changes what would be a fairly even matchup to Wario's favor.

I mean, without him running around it would be fairly even, but once you give him even a 1% lead he has a tremendous advantage if he just makes you approach and either runs from it or punishes you for approaching (Which makes you fall further behind.)

From a frame perspective, it's very possible for Wario to do this and not get hit.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Lingering Hitbox

So does Bowser has a hard time DIing out of Zelda's smashes?

He's kinda fat

Is his CG on Zelda easy to do?

Personally I use Green Greens against Bowser

Norfair seems to be a fairly good Bowser stage

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah i heard Norfair was a bowser stage. i've had more success on BF against him.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Lingering Hitbox

So does Bowser has a hard time DIing out of Zelda's smashes?

He's kinda fat

Is his CG on Zelda easy to do?

Personally I use Green Greens against Bowser

Norfair seems to be a fairly good Bowser stage

agreed. if we're talking about perfection, Zelda gets a 1% advantage and wario can literally not get through her defensive wall at all. even if we AREN'T talking perfection, he's not gonna get through without a bait.

anyone can DI her Fsmash pretty easily if they preemptively SDI the first hit, but otherwise, yeah. lots of trouble DIing out for bowser comparitively.

his CG on zelda requires frame perfection. and if he doesn't get it it's highly punishable. that's what I've been led to understand at least. He'll probably settle for an Ftilt since it's more reliable.

Green Greens is often banned for wall infinites. otherwise it'd probably be a good stage because it's so **** easy for zelda to camp him on the side platforms. for legal stages I have a lot of success on battlefield and brinstar.

 

[MrEh]

we're still on bowser i thought. did anyone mention stages to take bowser to?

Platforms are Bowser's friend, and he does extremely well with platforms around. That means that you have to stay away from Battlefield and Norfair. ESPECIALLY NORFAIR. Bowser does horrible things to people on Norfair.

Yoshi's Island is also a stage that Bowser does decent on against Zelda. The ******** shape of the stage screws with your spacing (DM hates Yoshi's Island for that very reason), and Bowser can use the platform as a shield.

Take his fat butt to Final Destination. It allows for easy juggling, since Bowser's blind spot is easily exploited on that stage.

and bowser vs zelda is a lot more even though I believe Zelda has just the slight edge. I'm still more inclined to say around 60:40 or less for Zelda (but certainly no further)

I think it's 55-45, but that's just from fighting DM all the time. ><

simply because I swear Bowser's fsmash is punishable with a quick bach SH din's - also nayrus tends to beat it out -

It's extremely hard to react to Bowser's Fsmash. If it hits you shield, then it pushes you really far away. Far enough for Bowser to shield any counterattack I think.

and dtilt really isn't that hard to hit with - it only takes one trip to get a good 40+-% combo on him now =O =O =O

I think Bowser can actually Fortress out of the Dtilt lock. I wouldn't know though, since DM doesn't even lock me all that much. ><

And he's larger than the sandbag! sweetspotting is not a problem! If Zelda gets bowser in the air she can juggle him for a very long time.

This is true.

then again he's ultra heavy (though she's hard hitting), and he is a great punisher with great range ^^

This is also true. One mistake and you get hit by his Fsmash.

How long is Bowser's jab? D:

Pretty long actually. Ftilt range, which is absolutely impressive for a Jab.

So does Bowser has a hard time DIing out of Zelda's smashes?

Pretty much. He's big, obviously.

Is his CG on Zelda easy to do?

Kind of. The timing is a bit strict, but I really wouldn't worry about his CG anyway. He can't do it forever, since you can get a Jump Release. Bowser will most likely just do it for a little extra damage, and then finish it with a grab release tilt or Klaw. Or at least that's what I do.

 

[NinjaLink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy_1ttIB7A0

This'll help us escape bowsers CG if he attempts it. Just incase y'all didnt kno about it.

 

[MrEh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy_1ttIB7A0

This'll help us escape bowsers CG if he attempts it. Just incase y'all didnt kno about it.

That actually doesn't work with Bowser, since he has to use his dashing grab to actually regrab someone. Even with EIDI, they're still within the range of his dashing grab. Not that it matters though. Bowser's chaingrab on Zelda is a bit of a novelty.


The main problem with the Zelda/Bowser matchup is that a lot of it is pretty much theorycraft. Bowser and Zelda mains are not exactly common, and this sort of matchup is sort of difficult to discuss, since most Bowser mains never get a chance to fight a competent Zelda, and vise versa.

Thankfully, I get to fight DarkMusician occasionally, and it's pretty obvious that he's a competent Zelda. Whether or not I'm a competent Bowser remains to be seen.

 

[NinjaLink]

regardless it'll make the CG shorter since ur moving closer to the ledge.

 

[MrEh]

regardless it'll make the CG shorter since ur moving closer to the ledge.

True, but it's so much easier for you to just get a jump release. Bowser will realistically only be able to regrab Zelda a couple of times, since forcing a ground release is so unreliable. The chaingrab is really the least of Zelda's worries...I'd be more worried about his Fsmash and the Fortress.


The main problem with the Zelda/Bowser matchup is that a lot of it pretty much theorycraft. Bowser and Zelda mains are not exactly common, and this sort of matchup is sort of difficult to discuss, since most Bowser mains never get a chance to fight a competent Zelda, and vise versa.

Thankfully, I get to fight DarkMusician occasionally, and it's pretty obvious that he's a competent Zelda. As for me, I have no idea if I'm even that good. XD

 

[NinjaLink]

True, but it's so much easier for you to just get a jump release. Bowser will realistically only be able to regrab Zelda a couple of times, since forcing a ground release is so unreliable. The chaingrab is really the least of Zelda's worries...I'd be more worried about his Fsmash and the Fortress.


The main problem with the Zelda/Bowser matchup is that a lot of it pretty much theorycraft. Bowser and Zelda mains are not exactly common, and this sort of matchup is sort of difficult to discuss, since most Bowser mains never get a chance to fight a competent Zelda, and vise versa.

Thankfully, I get to fight DarkMusician occasionally, and it's pretty obvious that he's a competent Zelda. As for me, I have no idea if I'm even that good. XD

the method for EIDI makes u jump release if u dont jab properly. As for the other stuff, Not my right to say >_>

 

[MrEh]

the method for EIDI makes u jump release if u dont jab properly.

Most of the time I'll only go for a single regrab, since it's sort of difficult to force a ground release after that. No sense getting greedy after all.

One regrab, then a tilt or Klaw out of a grab release. It's a reliable standby that usually works for me. Or if I'm feeling ballsy, a Dthrow is a pretty cool set up for things.


Grabs really aren't that important in this matchup though. Bowser probably won't be able to grab Zelda all that much anyway, since Both characters will probably be trying to outspace each other most of the time. Granted, grab releases are still an excellent tool when utilized properly, and Bowser will probably be able to get a couple grabs a match, so it's all fair game.

I wish I had some recent matches of me and DM though. I guess I could always ask him to record some matches the next time I see him...

 

[NinjaLink]

grab release to down b is im feeling ballsy lol

im a fellow bowser user as well

 

[MrEh]

grab release to down b is im feeling ballsy lol

im a fellow bowser user as well

Grab Release into down B is sexy.


And yeah, I know you use Bowser.

 

[NinjaLink]

Grab Release into down B is sexy.


And yeah, I know you use Bowser.

Good. Now get *****!!

Spoiler

dont hurt me >_<

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Platforms are Bowser's friend, and he does extremely well with platforms around. That means that you have to stay away from Battlefield and Norfair. ESPECIALLY NORFAIR. Bowser does horrible things to people on Norfair.

I'm not so sure about that.

I mean. I believe norfair, but I wouldn't "avoid battlefield"

I'm not sure exactly what bowser can do there that makes it so good for him, but zelda is SCARY with platforms around. it increses the chance of landing zelda's power aerials unpunished exponentially. and bowser's already one of the easier targets to hit with them

 

[MrEh]

Good. Now get *****!!

Spoiler

dont hurt me >_<

Oh snap. It's on now. XD

I'm not sure exactly what bowser can do there that makes it so good for him, but zelda is SCARY with platforms around. it increses the chance of landing zelda's power aerials unpunished exponentially. and bowser's already one of the easier targets to hit with them

For the most part, Battlefield is essentially a giant shield for Bowser. All Bowser needs to do is ground himself, and then it becomes freakishly hard to get at him. Platforms will screw with approaches, and Bowser can attack through the platforms with ease. While this applies to Zelda as well, it helps Bowser a bit more due to the fact that he becomes extremely hard to punish. Bowser can easily ground himself on Battlefield as well, since he can Fortress from any of the platforms and grab a ledge. (He can actually Bowser Bomb in between the platforms if he really wants to, which makes a situational, but cool trick to pull on people.)

No sense taking him to Battlefield when you can just take him to Final Destination. It's a way better idea. Smashville is a pretty good idea as well. As far as neutrals are concerned, I don't think that Bowser or Zelda has a significant advantage. My reasoning for that is sort of like this...

I think Bowser has an advantage on Yoshi's Island. Small advantage on Battlefield.

I think Zelda has an advantage on Final Destination. Small advantage on Smashville.

Counterpicks are another story though...

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

The thing about Zelda is that in many cases she plays like a mid-tier version of ROB; she camps with Din's and forces approaches in cases that you just described, aka the level causing approach problems. Zelda will camp Bowser and continue into **** from there.

Battlefield is still better for Zelda than Bowser, but Yoshi's is easily our worst neutral due to recovery problems.

 

[Brinzy]

I'm sorry for going off topic again with another character, but Marth is really starting to feel like a 35:65...

Take the Ike match-up, remove the Jab and leave everything else (including power), and add much more speed, a ground game that can beat OUR ground game, good specials, the ability to get out of Usmash and punish, and pretty much improbable gimping, and I feel that Marth is doing a lot better than we have it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The thing about Zelda is that in many cases she plays like a mid-tier version of ROB; she camps with Din's and forces approaches in cases that you just described, aka the level causing approach problems. Zelda will camp Bowser and continue into **** from there.

Battlefield is still better for Zelda than Bowser, but Yoshi's is easily our worst neutral due to recovery problems.

yes. I agree. Zelda's defensive and offensive games are both aided by battlefield's layout. lighning kicks become easier and she becomes even harder to approach. I really don't know why zelda would be approaching bowser anyway. he should have to approach her. Start camping on a platform and we'll throw din's at you until you move.

you might not get hit by it much, but there's no reason zelda has to move until you get close. and, once you're close, well then, you aren't camping are you? and once zelda gets under you... you really lack any good options besides running away.

Battlefield is one of zelda's best stages and, while bowser may like it and even take advantage of it, he's not beating out zelda as far as stage advantages go on battlefield. stage striking wise, you say you'll strike FD and we'll strike YI. whatever the 5th random is, we'll probably strike it because none of them are all that kind to her and that leaves smashville and battlefield.

whichever you chose, zelda's going to have at least a slight advantage.

 

[NinjaLink]

I'm sorry for going off topic again with another character, but Marth is really starting to feel like a 35:65...

Take the Ike match-up, remove the Jab and leave everything else (including power), and add much more speed, a ground game that can beat OUR ground game, good specials, the ability to get out of Usmash and punish, and pretty much improbable gimping, and I feel that Marth is doing a lot better than we have it.

Well i already posted zelda vs marth already.

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, I know, so I have ideas of how to fight Marth, but at the same time, I think that if we're going to use ratios, we should probably put up situations and what responses can be made. I feel that defensive Marth is just a lot for Zelda to handle, you know?

It's not like it can't be won, but it feels worse than 40:60 to me. Granted, with your vid and Pierce's advice, I've been doing much better, but once my opponents adapted to it and I tried to make up other strategies, they started finding counters to what I was doing.

I don't have any vids, sorry.

 

[sniperworm]

I think Bowser has an advantage on Yoshi's Island. Small advantage on Battlefield.

I think Zelda has an advantage on Final Destination. Small advantage on Smashville.

Counterpicks are another story though...

Grrr ... Yoshi's is dumb.