Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

zelda v. zelda is boring... let's move on to the next matchup... Luigi would be nice, but if everyone else would prefer bowser, that's pretty okay too.

 

[Bandit]

You can sum up Zelda dittos with one sentence...

The Zelda that approaches will lose.

It is that simple. Ok, next match-up!

 

[GreyFox86]

I would like to hear how Luigi would stand but Bowser is another one I can do. I play him every so often and win like 70% with him.

The Koops is too good. (but not as good as my Zelda)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would like to hear how Luigi would stand but Bowser is another one I can do. I play him every so often and win like 70% with him.

The Koops is too good. (but not as good as my Zelda)

generally speaking, if you fight a bowser, it's going to be a **** good bowser because he loses BIG time if he's not in capable hands. Luigi's interesting.

 

[GreyFox86]

generally speaking, if you fight a bowser, it's going to be a **** good bowser because he loses BIG time if he's not in capable hands. Luigi's interesting.

Well like I said either one is fine. Bowser just to get him out of the way, and not in that sence, and Luigi to find out what makes him tick.

 

[Brinzy]

Let's just start on Bowser now. Royal will notice and update later, and we've already pretty much decided on it.

I'll go on and make the thread.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Grab release destroys zelda, don't get grabbed >.>

 

[Brinzy]

All Bowser can do, as far as I know, is ftilt. That's either free damage or getting a guaranteed kill at some damage. I don't think that destroys her.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Grab release destroys zelda, don't get grabbed >.>

Zelda is **** hard to innitiate a grab on. I've never been grab released. is it really that bad?

anyway lets get the basics out of the way:

• Zelda has loads of killing power, but bowser weighs about as much as a minivan so he's **** hard to kill. you'll need all those kill moves.
• bowser is heavy and a massive target. that makes him easy to combo and hard for him to DI out of zelda's attacks.
• Bowser is, again, a massive target, making him one of the easier charcters in the game to land zelda's aerials on.
• Bowser has fantastic OoS options that makes him very good at punishing you if he ever sheild anything of yours.
• Zelda outranges and outprioritizes Bowser.
• Bowser can kill zelda at low damages... real low compared to how long it takes her to kill him.
• Bowser doesn't have the world's best recovery as far as safety is concerned, so capitalize when you can, though generally he'll be able to grab the ledge with it. See what you can do to get bowser to use it in a position where he won't be able to sweetspot. if you can, he should be pretty vulnerable. if you can't, no biggie.
• Bowser has a respectable defensive game, but he can't force zelda to approach. Don't get blinded by the fact he's a big target. play safe. play very safe. Bowser should have a very hard time with zelda if she plays like a gay *****.
• Bowser lacks the ability to reliably penetrate her defenses
• Bowser is one of the easier charcters to build up damage against because of his size/weight.

basically, like I said earlier, bowser should have a lot of trouble with a defensive zelda, but a reckless zelda is toast against him. move in for the KO with a LK or a uair WHEN THE OPPORTUNITYPRESENTS ITSELF. do NOT get greedy. be patient and keep bowser out of your personal space. punish or incite mistakes with din's and punish any opening he gives you but do NOT get greedy. Oftentimes, you may want to move in for an aerial kill when it's a lot safer just to punish with a smash. Don't be frustrated that you're just building up damage against him. it's better than letting himbuild up any damage on you.

Zelda is very resistant to grabs but apparently it's something extra to fear against bowser, so be extra wary of it. Bowser is one of the only charcters less fluid than zelda. work with that and use it to your advantage. keep a cool head and, if you can use sheik, for the love of god do it. Sheik is like a debillitating illness to bowser; she may not kill him, but she will QUICKLY weaken him and there's not much he can do to stop it. simply transform to zelda once he's killable and DO NOT GO INTO KILL MODE. that's a bad idea. just play like you regularly would with zelda: safely. She'll kill him. don't you worry.


honestly I see this as an awful matchup for Bowser IF and only if sheik is used in tandem with zelda. otherwise it's only marginally bad for him because of his massive strength and survivability. Regardless of which method is used, it's gonna be a tougher battle for bowser than for Zelda, but I think he's often underestimated because of the stigma associated with him.

Final thoughts, though they are open to change:
Bowser vs:
Sheik alone: 40:60 Sheik
Zelda alone: 40:60 Zelda
Sheik/Zelda: 30:70 Sheik/Zelda.




that's just my opinion, though I think it's likely to be a commonly shared one among zelda mains. And I'd be surprised if it was more than 5% off either way, though if both zelda and sheik only go 55:45, having zelda sheik only go 60:40 wouldn't be so surprising. Anyway. Bowser is far from a free win and he's hard if you get too cocky and agressive. but I've had nothing but success on the defense with zelda, and no problem wracking up damage with sheik.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Eurgh come on you guys, the metagame's older now, shouldn't you know more then Bowser's big? Im guessing Hedgehawg's number's are based completely on that, right? Your three paragraph's seem to basically repeat that over and over. If you're going to make a biased matchup thread where you haven't researched the other character, try and make it a little less obvious.

All Bowser can do, as far as I know, is ftilt. That's either free damage or getting a guaranteed kill at some damage. I don't think that destroys her.

Lol, thanks for proving my point.

For the record:
Zelda from air release: Grab release fair
Zelda from ground release: Grab release regrab, Grab release overb, Grab release ftilt, Grab release jab.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Eurgh come on you guys, the metagame's older now, shouldn't you know more then Bowser's big? Im guessing Hedgehawg's number's are based completely on that, right? Your three paragraph's seem to basically repeat that over and over.

moreso that he has a terrible time getting in on zelda and a terrible time breaking out of sheik's pressure.

prove me wrong.

 

[Kataefi]

I think MrEh has great experience in this matchup ^^ We should summon his presence!

Also... I have some videos with me against Rizul's bowser and I have to say the amount of kicks I landed was insane =O Is bowser bigger than than the sandbag? Because Fair and Bair OoS hit almost consistently on him :?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think MrEh has great experience in this matchup ^^ We should summon his presence!

Also... I have some videos with me against Rizul's bowser and I have to say the amount of kicks I landed was insane =O Is bowser bigger than than the sandbag? Because Fair and Bair OoS hit almost consistently on him :?

he's certainly wider than the sandbag and, yes, I think he's taller as well. he's got great responses to your lightning kicks if he blocks them, but he's like a gigantic target if you block something of his.

For the record:
Zelda from air release: Grab release fair
Zelda from ground release: Grab release regrab, Grab release overb, Grab release ftilt, Grab release jab.

that doesn't sound so awful... it's just like getting hit with any of those moves plus, what, about 5 or so damage from being pummeled? Certainly doesn't seem like ****. just makes it a little easier to land those hits than otherwise... not like they were excepeionally hard to land.

 

[Blistering Speed]

moreso that he has a terrible time getting in on zelda and a terrible time breaking out of sheik's pressure.

prove me wrong.

I've edited my first post, I do that alot lol.

Why does Bowser have to get in on Zelda? Can't he just force you to use your **** approach by keeping out of your range with flamebreath? Don't mention Dins for the love of God.

Shiek? Err, space with Jab and F Tilt and aerially F Air and Bowser has this little thing called Fortress, it's invincible frame 1-5 and hit's on frame 6, like it or not this breaks every one of Shiek's 'combo's and pressure' and screws her shield pressure. It also break's out of F Tilt lock might I add.

To you grab release comment:
And at 0% a grab is at least 15% damage, only increasing as you get higher. Bear in mind if you release while we're pummeling you're forced to ground break, from which we can guaranteed regrab. F Air puts you at a disadvantageous position off stage at reasonably low percentages too.

 

[Takumaru]

Bowser's horizontal recovery is amazing... what are you talking about he has bad recovery?

 

[Kataefi]

It's really hard to gimp his recovery.

But flame breath as his approach just outside her range is bad because it lags ever so slightly and he can't afford her to sweetspot him, which she can do so easily. Also she can nayru's out if she's caught in it.

The only move that is difficult for me anyways is his Ftilt =(

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've edited my first post, I do that alot lol.

Why does Bowser have to get in on Zelda? Can't he just force you to use your **** approach by keeping out of your range with flamebreath? Don't mention Dins for the love of God.

Shiek? Err, space with Jab and F Tilt and aerially F Air and Bowser has this little thing called Fortress, it's invincible frame 1-5 and hit's on frame 6, like it or not this breaks every one of Shiek's 'combo's and pressure' and screws her shield pressure. It also break's out of F Tilt lock might I add.

Why would I not mention dins? Din's will beat flame breath if he pulls it out. plain and simple. that is, if she doesn't move in for a lightning kick or nayru's instead.

fortress stops sheik's combos, but not her pressure. she can needle camp him until he gets close and has a frame advantage on most everything. Fortress is great on startup, but is vulerable once its attackboxes come out. and it's not too threatening against tiltlock since aerial fortress lacks a lot of knockback. fortress may break sheik's combos, but you'll normally get hit by sheik again before you recover from using it.

Bowser's horizontal recovery is amazing... what are you talking about he has bad recovery?

urk... I meant more that it was punishable on landinglike zeldas and that his vertical recovery isn't so good if he gets Dsmashed. moreso, however, if you force him to land onstage, he should get punished everytime. his recovery is normally good enough to survive, it's just not among the safest.

To you grab release comment:
And at 0% a grab is at least 15% damage, only increasing as you get higher. Bear in mind if you release while we're pummeling you're forced to ground break, from which we can guaranteed regrab. F Air puts you at a disadvantageous position off stage at reasonably low percentages too.

how is it that disadvantageous? Zelda's recovery is the hardest to intercept because she's invincible while invisible, and bowser isn't exactly fast, so he'll have to predict where we are going to reappear with farore's of he wants to capitalize on it. either way, it's nice for him, and it's certainly an advantage, but it hardly destroys her. Add that to the face that she's **** hard to grab when she's on defense and it's not really a HUGE issue in the matchup. It's likely going to come up, but it's not going to make or break the game

 

[Blistering Speed]

Why would I not mention dins? Din's will beat flame breath if he pulls it out. plain and simple. that is, if she doesn't move in for a lightning kick or nayru's instead.
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I would gladly SH Airdodge Din's all day or just shield (Bowser has a great sheild), Zelda can't camp Bowser. Bowser can firebreath just outside your range, though I will allow it's not something to be relied on because of Naryu's though you'd have to get it on reaction. Lightning Kick through Flamebreath? Lolwt?
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fortress stops sheik's combos, but not her pressure. she can needle camp him until he gets close and has a frame advantage on most everything. Fortress is great on startup, but is vulerable once its attackboxes come out. and it's not too threatening against tiltlock since aerial fortress lacks a lot of knockback. fortress may break sheik's combos, but you'll normally get hit by sheik again before you recover from using it.
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It doesn't have much knockback aerially but seeing as Shiek's going to be close when I fortress (thanks SDI) it's going to hit for ALOT (33% if all hit's hit). Bowser does have some trouble needle camping admittedly, but generally staying aerial means he's not going to take much damage (which he can with either simple jumping or Koopahopping), needle camping could easily be overstated, Bowser's not going to take much damage, which when your as heavy as Bowser makes it fairly insignificant.
Shiek'll punish the fortress, ignoring the fact it has good knockback on the ground and you can move a fair distance away whilst using the move? Fortress is like a less punishable DS.


urk... I meant more that it was punishable on landinglike zeldas and that his vertical recovery isn't so good if he gets Dsmashed. moreso, however, if you force him to land onstage, he should get punished everytime. his recovery is normally good enough to survive, it's just not among the safest.

D Smash has fairly horizontal knockback with a downward slant, which combined with Bowser's weight means he can recover easily from even a relatively high percentage D Smash. Bowser's recovery is plenty enough to get by in this matchup and it's great priority whilst recovering can't be all bad. Err, punish the landing lag? Ever heard of recovering to the ledge?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

D Smash has fairly horizontal knockback with a downward slant, which combined with Bowser's weight means he can recover easily from even a relatively high percentage D Smash. Bowser's recovery is plenty enough to get by in this matchup and it's great priority whilst recovering can't be all bad. Err, punish the landing lag? Ever heard of recovering to the ledge?

yeah. it's situational. Zelda will normally punish from above or below and fortress is pretty vulnerable both ways. I normally pursue out with zelda to the point where bowser uses Fortress early. if he can't swetspot the ledge with it, I almost always get a free punishment for it. and Dsmash puts him in a position where he's actually pretty easily edgehogged... sadly.

plus, his recovery doesn't have great vertical range meaning sheik can chainhog him situationally.

all in all, it's a solid recovery, but it's not without exploitable weaknesses. Since zelda should be choosy in where she goes for KOs, getting bowser to use his recovery in a bad place is a great opportunity. it's not one you should rely on, but I'm making the point that it's definitely something that you should try to do if you can.

 

[Blistering Speed]

And my other points? Don't debate selectively because otherwise I view it as you having no response (unless you don't, in which case state you agree).

Yes I can agree with the statement that Bowser has a solid but situationally exploitable recovery.

''I normally pursue out with zelda to the point where bowser uses Fortress early. if he can't swetspot the ledge with it, I almost always get a free punishment for it''

How do you make Bowser use Fortress early? You come close to me for the edgeguard and I Up B, my priority goes straight through you and Im the one hanging on the ledge with you forced to recover, Bowser's advantage.

 

[Brinzy]

Lol, thanks for proving my point.

For the record:
Zelda from air release: Grab release fair
Zelda from ground release: Grab release regrab, Grab release overb, Grab release ftilt, Grab release jab.

I said I only knew about ftilt in my post. No need to make it sound like it was definite.

... Of course, I just tested ALL of this and got only Ftilt. Prove it.

EDIT: I checked your board and I'm willing to believe she can be chaingrabbed, but the timing is ridiculously strict so I'm still skeptical. Also, I want to know if DI was taken into consideration. You can use both the analog stick and the C-stick to DI out of grab releases, so I want to know if that stuff was tested with the proper DI.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Ok ok ^__^ I read the grab release Bowser thread a while back and it said you could only get a ftilt from ground release on Zelda

Maybe a jab on everyone too

Please back up with proofs >_>

I'll update ;3

 

[Brinzy]

The only thread I saw that mentioned what could be done to Zelda was a thread made around the same time MrEh's thread was made about what could be done to Zelda. There isn't really any "proof" in the thread or even if it's hard to do or not. He just copied it out of there, and apparently it needs to be updated.

 

[MorphedChaos]

UpB out prioritizes Zelda's Fsmash and Usmash, and clangs with Dins, and it comes out in 2 frames, thats the big thing Bowser has vs Zelda.

 

[RoyalBlood]

But it's knockback is not too..you know strong right?

So Bowser will be using Up B a lot in here?

 

[Brinzy]

Up B has invincibility frames, right? That's pretty much a universal thing, not something specific to Zelda, you know?

But... I must say, I don't see how it's significant as far as Fsmash goes. I can't imagine the attack part overlapping with the invincible part, and even if it does, it can't last that long... and even with all of this considered, Zelda should be away from Bowser when she Fsmashes. Din's is nothing.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Nah, UpB clangs with the smashes. And UpB kills zelda at 130% for the first hit. Also, Don't forget, Bowser can Approach via Koopa hopping, and thats hard to get around.

 

[Brinzy]

First off, what is Koopa hopping, for those of us who aren't down on the lingo of other characters?

Second, Zelda's smash attacks, Dsmash aside, do not clang.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Up B kills Zelda at 130% the first hit if it's not decayed but since you mentioned that Bowser will be using it quite a lot it well get decayed badly right?

Is DI accounted in that percentage?

Just asking

Koopa hopping is using the side b to avoid touching the ground right?

 

[Brinzy]

Koopa hopping is using the side b to avoid touching the ground right?

Hello, use for Din's if you're gonna try to wall with that. Otherwise, I guess that's ok... unless you get Usmashed.

 

[Kataefi]

I cannot stress the use of lightning kicks in this matchup - whether they stale or not, it will connect OoS and it will hit for massive damage =O He can consistently be hit by them from a SH.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Thats what Zelda has on Bowser, but if you miss, he'll Shield grab and CG you.

 

[Villi]

Up B kills Zelda at 130% the first hit if it's not decayed but since you mentioned that Bowser will be using it quite a lot it well get decayed badly right?

Is DI accounted in that percentage?

Just asking

Koopa hopping is using the side b to avoid touching the ground right?

Bowser's overb is the most fun to DI.

You can move Bowser while you're both in the air.

Right before you hit the ground, you can decide which type of DI is best based on your percentage and where you guys moved on the stage.

DI away from him to avoid follow ups - make sure to change gears to fight your knockback before hitstun wears off.

DI away or don't DI at all to prevent star KOs.

DI up or behind him to prevent side KOs.

 

[Brinzy]

I still want to know if that chaingrab thing was confirmed with DI, because it's very, very hard for me to get a second regrab on a free Zelda who isn't DIing. I don't know the timing of course, but I get that it's hard to do.

There's also DIing with both the C-stick and the analog stick, which throws you back a bit more. It's enough to remove the standing "infinite" that we all thought Marth had on Ness, so considering how fast Zelda breaks in the first place, I want to know if this was taken into consideration or not, because if it wasn't, then you guys may need to retest... and that would also mean Zelda's escaping a lot of that stuff.

Also, I can't jab her out of release. Am I supposed to step forward and jab? I can't reach her from where I'm standing.

 

[Kataefi]

MrEh I think confirmed that the only thing Bowser has on Zelda from a grab release is ftilt, and even that needs to be frame perfect. But this might be incorrect, though I'm 90% sure.

Regardless, I find Bowser's only truly safe moves in this matchup is his fortress and ftilt. Everything else can be punished by her if whiffed, whereas I feel she has safer options in general against him, and she can actually use lightning kicks as reliable kill moves in this matchups whilst she outprioritises him with smashes to rack up the damage.

Here's DM and MrEh's rounds in their tourney here!

I know from experience that her smashes actually suck Bowser in from a quite a range I have not yet seen from other characters.

EDIT::: I forgot to add that it's possible to space her LKs so that she can't get grabbed by bowser if she connects on his shield whilst he takes tons of shield damage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

And my other points? Don't debate selectively because otherwise I view it as you having no response (unless you don't, in which case state you agree).

Yes I can agree with the statement that Bowser has a solid but situationally exploitable recovery.

''I normally pursue out with zelda to the point where bowser uses Fortress early. if he can't swetspot the ledge with it, I almost always get a free punishment for it''

How do you make Bowser use Fortress early? You come close to me for the edgeguard and I Up B, my priority goes straight through you and Im the one hanging on the ledge with you forced to recover, Bowser's advantage.

your other two points were within the quotes. I responded to what I saw. that is all.
in response:
-Zelda outcamps bowser. plain and simple. Din's forces the approach assuming zelda doesn't have more damage because, let's be honest, you keep dodging and the best you can hope for is not to take damage. it's not like you have anything to discourage zelda from using it. and Din's > flame breath. you pull out flame breath, I pull out din's. we trade and you take at least 2x as much damage as me plus you get popped into the air. and, yes, when you stop breathing flame, you have enough cooldown to get popped in the face with a lighting kick. if we don't get caught in your fire, you lose.

- I wasn't ingnoring the fact that you cna use fortress on the ground. you were talking about fortress in the capacity that it can be used to stop sheik from stringing together attacks by using it to break her flow with it's invincibility frames. if you're using it out of an attack, you'll be airborne. it doesn't matter what the move will do grounded because you won't be grounded when you use it to scar a string.

- forcing bowser to use it early? you don't "force" it. you bait. if he thinks zelda's gonna kill him if he doesn't hit her with it, he's probably going to use it to attack her. mixing up your edgeguarding game can get him to respond incorrectly.


Responding to morphed Chaos:
- Bowser's up+B is NOT a reliable way to get inside zelda. you're only going to be able to make use of those invincibility frames if you're already inside of her. if he uses it in the air to approach then it's REALLY easy to just usmash him out of it. and if he uses it on the ground, it's easy to sheild and, if he can't get far enough away, it's easily punishable OoS. It's a GREAT OoS maneuver for bowser, and a good quick move of his, but it's lackluster for approach.

- Koopa hopping is piunishable by din's, fsmash, usmash, ftilt, utilt, farore's and nayru's at least. I'm sure she has more options that work as well. I don't know how useful it's supposed to be, but it does not get inside zelda, so it's useless as a penetrating strategy.

- if bowser can only Ftilt out of grab release, then, no. it means just about nothing.... becuase zelda's actually easier for him to ftilt in the first place than to grab and set up for ftilt.

 

[Bowser King]

Responding to morphed Chaos:
- Bowser's up+B is NOT a reliable way to get inside zelda. you're only going to be able to make use of those invincibility frames if you're already inside of her. if he uses it in the air to approach then it's REALLY easy to just usmash him out of it. and if he uses it on the ground, it's easy to sheild and, if he can't get far enough away, it's easily punishable OoS. It's a GREAT OoS maneuver for bowser, and a good quick move of his, but it's lackluster for approach.

- Koopa hopping is piunishable by din's, fsmash, usmash, ftilt, utilt, farore's and nayru's at least. I'm sure she has more options that work as well. I don't know how useful it's supposed to be, but it does not get inside zelda, so it's useless as a penetrating strategy.

- if bowser can only Ftilt out of grab release, then, no. it means just about nothing.... becuase zelda's actually easier for him to ftilt in the first place than to grab and set up for ftilt.

1.IIRC, ^b was said to cling with dins fire. How is that now a safe way to approach?
Also, your post makes it seem as if bowser is going to ^b all the way to you. ^b to get close, then when were close we can continue from there.Also remember that ^b cancels out right away when a projectile hits.

2. Fsmash? Usmash? Utilt? Ftilt? Seriously, we don't Koopa hop into you. We hop until were close. If you din's fire while were close your going to get a shield (remember bowsers shield= huge) or a OoS to follow. Though dins fire can get annoying when going in the air for bowser.

3. If the zelda is camping then yes it does close to nothing other then being a good way to get the control in your hand (get it? In your hand? Nevermind....). It allows us to have that extra seconds but other then that it does little.

If the zelda doesn't camp (which is highly unlikely) then it allows for a CG to the edge and then a ftilt.

-Bowser King

 

[Kataefi]

It's been established in almost every matchup that din's does little. But Bowser's aerial game is limited because USmash outprioritises him and outspeeds all his aerials (it's frame 6) so SH aerial approaches can be hampered.

I reckon he'll rely a lot more on his ground game in this matchup but even then his Ftilt can be jumped over for a free lightning kick, which are more consistent than ever =O

 

[MrEh]

MrEh I think confirmed that the only thing Bowser has on Zelda from a grab release is ftilt, and even that needs to be frame perfect. But this might be incorrect, though I'm 90% sure.

Klaw works, as well as regrabs and Jabs I think.


After those tournament matches with DarkMusician, I usually do much better then how I did then. (I got ***** in those videos) I've been playing him a lot, so I've gotten much better at the Zelda matchup. I wish I had some recent videos to show you guys, but the most recent one is nearly 2 months old. ><


You wouldn't believe how useful Bowser's Fsmash is in this matchup. If Zelda is spacing with her Fsmash, Bowser's drawback animation will punish it. Sounds silly, but it works more often then you'd think.

 

[Kataefi]

I never knew that!
From your experience with DM what do you honestly feel the ratio could be ^^? You seem to know the matchup quite well!