Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[MrEh]

I never knew that!

To put it simply, most of the kills I get on Zelda is from Bowser's Fsmash. Note that this is DarkMusician's Zelda too, not some random noob.

Bowser's Fsmash is too good at screwing up Zelda's spacing.

From your experience with DM what do you honestly feel the ratio could be ^^? You seem to know the matchup quite well!

Hmm...well, I always thought that Zelda had an advantage. The problem is that DarkMusician is so good that it's hard to tell whether or not Zelda has the advantage, or if it's just because he's a very skilled player.

I would give the edge to Zelda, but how much of an advantage is debatable. Could be 55-45, could be 60-40. It's definately not higher though.

 

[sniperworm]

To put it simply, most of the kills I get on Zelda is from Bowser's Fsmash. Note that this is DarkMusician's Zelda too, not some random noob.

Here's the random noob, lol (against whom he also seems to get most of his kills with that Fsmash).

 

[MrEh]

Here's the random noob, lol (against whom he also seems to get most of his kills with that Fsmash).

Nah, your Zelda is fine. It's your Shiek that I worry about though. Thankfully, Bowser has the almighty Jab to stop her.


Really though, Bowser's Fsmash is just outrageous. The hitbox is enormous, and it's very disjointed near the tip. Zelda's main close range attack used for spacing, her Fsmash, can be outranged by Bowser's Fsmash by abusing the drawback animation. When Bowser uses his Fsmash, he draws his body backwards a considerable amount. If Zelda's Fsmash is spaced well...it will miss, and it will be punished by Bowser's humongous head.

I'll post more once I see more debating. XD

 

[JigglyZelda003]

bowsers Fsmash can stop the almighty Zelda Fsmash? *cries*

 

[B!squick]

Well I just came back from training with a couple discoveries I found interesting. Pleass note however that I'm not great with Bowser, this isn't a match up I'm very knowledgeable in, and this was done on my own so testing was hard. I do have to say that Koopa Hopping is awesome and surprisingly easy to do having used it for the first time.

On the subject grabs, I found that from a ground release I was only able to get the second swing of the jab to hit. I could regrab by dashing but it wasn't very fast and it seemed very avoidable. Though Bowser's grab game is something I need to work on. :/

Something I haven't seen mentioned, for avoiding Din from the air, I had a really easy time when I used Nair which out prioritized it. From a full jump I was even able to get Nair off without that awful ladding lag, though it's not something I would ever approach with.

Though it may be a fluke (it only happened once while fighting the CPU), I was able to hit Zelda from above with a SHed Fair when she was in the middle of a Neutral B when I was certain I was close enough to be hit by it.

Mostly though, I find it funny that probably Bowser's least used move (Nair) is a fantastic option against a long ranged Din, which was one of my bigger concerns when I first looked at the match up.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

To put it simply, most of the kills I get on Zelda is from Bowser's Fsmash. Note that this is DarkMusician's Zelda too, not some random noob.

Bowser's Fsmash is too good at screwing up Zelda's spacing.

that seems like on of the better mindgames you could apply. it's highly punishable if you mess up, but it's so strong it's probably worth the risk most of the time.

Hmm...well, I always thought that Zelda had an advantage. The problem is that DarkMusician is so good that it's hard to tell whether or not Zelda has the advantage, or if it's just because he's a very skilled player.

I would give the edge to Zelda, but how much of an advantage is debatable. Could be 55-45, could be 60-40. It's definately not higher though.

60:40 seems the most fair to me honestly. I mean it's clear to see what zelda has on bowser. I still think a lot of people underestimate him though, so I agree it's definitely not higher than that.... but I think we CAN beat bowser more thuroughly with a compitent Zelda/Sheik tandem... but I doubt you've played any good zelda/sheiks have you? it'd be nice if you had for some insight.

 

[B!squick]

No one finds Nair Din cancelling interesting? Or am I a day late and a dollar short and this was already known? Or is it just not as useful as I seem to think it is. *sad face*

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

No one finds Nair Din cancelling interesting? Or am I a day late and a dollar short and this was already known? Or is it just not as useful as I seem to think it is. *sad face*

most characters have nairs that cancel din's. we're used to it, and it's not terribly bothersome. We don't expect to connect with it through random spam anyway.

 

[Kataefi]

OH MY GOD... I just tested something... Zelda has a true dtilt > Fair sweetspot COMBO whenever bowser trips. I've just tested and tested and tested and it works consistently whenever bowser trips, you have to jump immediately and fair into him. Works with Donkey kong also, I'm currently testing other heavies like dedede. You can also bair from a dtilt as they trip but it's harder to do though may work on smaller characters.

If you keep dtilt fresh when he hits 75% and then dtilt > fair sweetspot he will die from the centre of final d. This is with no DI. But when done near the ledge at earlier percents its very dangerous even with DI considering it's power.

EDIT:: definitely works with bair now and kills sooner

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

OH MY GOD... I just tested something... Zelda has a true dtilt > Fair sweetspot COMBO whenever bowser trips. I've just tested and tested and tested and it works consistently whenever bowser trips, you have to jump immediately and fair into him. Works with Donkey kong also, I'm currently testing other heavies like dedede. You can also bair from a dtilt as they trip but it's harder to do though may work on smaller characters.

If you keep dtilt fresh when he hits 75% and then dtilt > fair sweetspot he will die from the centre of final d. This is with no DI. But when done near the ledge at earlier percents its very dangerous even with DI considering it's power.

nice find kataefi!

 

[Kataefi]

Currently it only works for both bowser and dk and only when they trip. The fair sweetspot doesn't work for dedede but there is time to do a dtilt > SH bair whilst he is in trip animation, but the timing is super strict.

 

[B!squick]

OH MY GOD... I just tested something... Zelda has a true dtilt > Fair sweetspot COMBO whenever bowser trips. I've just tested and tested and tested and it works consistently whenever bowser trips, you have to jump immediately and fair into him. Works with Donkey kong also, I'm currently testing other heavies like dedede. You can also bair from a dtilt as they trip but it's harder to do though may work on smaller characters.

If you keep dtilt fresh when he hits 75% and then dtilt > fair sweetspot he will die from the centre of final d. This is with no DI. But when done near the ledge at earlier percents its very dangerous even with DI considering it's power.

EDIT:: definitely works with bair now and kills sooner

Booooo, bad find. You already had the advantage. T_T

 

[Bandit]

If Bowser uses fire breath and you are closer to him than the outer range of the fire when you are in it, DI towards him and it is a free sweetspotted fair. Usually, if you are closer to Bowser, you will win the trade off, but if you are further away, then you should just DI out. Zelda can move very fast through his fire if DI'd properly. You can usually do other moves as well, but none will hit more than a LK.

 

[Brinzy]

Kataefi, that's an interesting find. I know that I've done this once before on Robot, but I thought it was just fluke. I also know I've done this with popping them up, but if that's true, then I think we've got ourselves a nice tool to work with.

This will be especially helpful on DK, because if I'm not mistaken, he's the only character who doesn't really get caught in the lock.

 

[Villi]

Samus doesn't get tilt locked either. I don't believe there are any more, but I can't be bothered to test that. I'll figure it out when I see it.

 

[Kataefi]

So far it's only Bowser and DK that it works on. It can work against Dedede but not the fair, it must be the bair and the timing is soooo strict. I've only one it once out of a lot of times. I tried ROB but I couldn't do it either, but I haven't tried it with the bair yet.

EDIT:: should I get a video? It's not too hard to do though on bowser just make him trip with Dtilt and Fair sweetspot ;D

 

[DMG]

Ok. I've thought about the Wario-Zelda matchup very hard, and I've come to the conclusion that it is clearly in his advantage if you play extremely gay with Wario. I mean Camping Hardcore with any % lead possible. Zelda is forced to approach, run's slower than Wario moves in the air, and she loses. If he messes up and gets hit (shouldn't, but it is possible), he approaches her until he gets a % lead again and starts camping again.

When I say hardcore camping, I mean giving you no shot at all at hitting him. Ever.

 

[Brinzy]

^ Can't they both play like that, though? What happens when Zelda gets the lead? Bait and punish? I still feel as if this is a player's fault, not Zelda's.

Kataefi, maybe I'm mistaken about Robot.

 

[Villi]

Yeah, Zelda can do keep away as good as Wario. They have comparable aerial priority so nair and spaced lightning kicks work for crossing up and distancing. On the ground, she can just keep on being gay with fsmash, jab, and dtilt as they're all very difficult to punish.

Anyhoot. I play a very gay Wario and it's annoying. I really just wanna up smash the crap out of him most of the time, but the aforementioned strategy is viable albeit tedious. I'd really just use Sheik in this matchup, myself.

 

[DMG]

Yeah, Zelda can do keep away as good as Wario. They have comparable aerial priority so nair and spaced lightning kicks work for crossing up and distancing. On the ground, she can just keep on being gay with fsmash, jab, and dtilt as they're all very difficult to punish.

Anyhoot. I play a very gay Wario and it's annoying. I really just wanna up smash the crap out of him most of the time, but the aforementioned strategy is viable albeit tedious. I'd really just use Sheik in this matchup, myself.

Is it Fiction? lol. We were talking about Wario camping in his matches and how hard it is to punish it. I thought about it for a bit and he's right :0

 

[MrEh]

bowsers Fsmash can stop the almighty Zelda Fsmash? *cries*

Well, it can stop it on a lot of occasions. Not all the time though.

that seems like on of the better mindgames you could apply. it's highly punishable if you mess up, but it's so strong it's probably worth the risk most of the time.

With good spacing, Bowser's Fsmash is actually somewhat difficult to punish. It usually puts him out of the range of a sweetspotted Lightning Kick most of the time, so your only real option against a well spaced Fsmash is an Fsmash of your own.

but I doubt you've played any good zelda/sheiks have you? it'd be nice if you had for some insight.

Sniperworm uses both Zelda and Sheik, and he's good. Zelda definately does better on Bowser then Sheik does. The problem with Sheik is that it's very difficult for Sheik to kill Bowser. She can rack up damage just fine though. However, Bowser's Jabs just wreck total havoc against her. (I'm not kidding. Ask Sniperworm about it.)

OH MY GOD... I just tested something... Zelda has a true dtilt > Fair sweetspot COMBO whenever bowser trips. I've just tested and tested and tested and it works consistently whenever bowser trips, you have to jump immediately and fair into him. Works with Donkey kong also, I'm currently testing other heavies like dedede. You can also bair from a dtilt as they trip but it's harder to do though may work on smaller characters

Too bad it's very difficult to Dtilt Bowser. I'm dead serious about this. If I remember correctly, DarkMusician said something to Sniperworm when we played friendlies last week. Don't quote me on this, but I'm sure he said it.

Bowser is impossible to get inside of.

What DM meant was that Bowser is very difficult for Zelda to get close to. While she can tango with him from a distance with little problem, Bowser presents a very difficult target for Zelda to get in the range to use her Dtilt. Bowser's Jabs are the key here, if you can believe that. Coming out in 6 frames is pretty slow for a Jab, but Bowser's Jabs are simply awesome for spacing. They have good range, about the same as his Ftilt, and with a Jab range that impressive, it's simply awesome for distancing Zelda.

And if Zelda gets really close, then the Fortress deals with that. It does through her Dtilt and Dsmash no problem.

 

[Kataefi]

I see! But her dtilt is relatively easy to land than the majority of her moveset and has deceptive range. She only ever needs to get it in once to get it to start locking and take it from there until you actually trip =O Could be spotdodge > dtilt, she can buffer dtilt from her shield, nair autocancel > dtilt, or simply run up to you and shield and then pursue bowser with dtilt!

I agree that bowser is a ******* to get inside of ^^ but what if she's forcing his approach? What if she shields the fortress and pursues the ending lag with dtilt?

That's 28% percent and possibly MORE with the lock straight away! And for that to happen near the ledge at around 60-70% is actual death for bowser =O

It's started to do it's justice against the bowser's I've been fighting after I've realised this combo!

 

[MrEh]

I see! But her dtilt is relatively easy to land than the majority of her moveset and has deceptive range.

Yeah, I know the Dtilt's range. The problem is that it's outranged by Bowser's Jabs. They both come out on frame 6, so the Dtilt will lose to Jabs in a head on clash, due to the Jab's range.

She only ever needs to get it in once to get it to start locking and take it from there until you actually trip

This is true. Watch out for the Fortress though. If there's even a single frame where Bowser can react, then he's free due to the Fortress's invincibility frames and priority.

=O Could be spotdodge > dtilt

You'll never want to spot dodge in front of Bowser. It's a bad idea period, even the ROB boards agreed on that. (and you know how much ROB loves to spot dodge...) Bowser's Jabs destroy spot dodging. And once again, the range of the Jabs helps keep Bowser out of Dtilt range.

nair autocancel > dtilt

An out-of-shield Fortress stops this most of the time. Head on approaches are usually bad against Bowser. Spacing well and punishing is probably a better idea.

or simply run up to you and shield and then pursue bowser with dtilt!

Jabs. I know it's probably getting annoying after me saying it too much, but Bowser's Jabs are just too good. Any sort of head on approach is stopped by Jabs.

I agree that bowser is a ******* to get inside of ^^ but what if she's forcing his approach? What if she shields the fortress and pursues the ending lag with dtilt?

More then half the characters in the game have projectiles, so Bowser is sadly forced to approach in a lot of his matchups. Just because Bowser has to approach, that doesn't mean he cannot space. He can still use his Jabs to stay out of Zelda's Dtilt range. (Yeah, sorry about the Jabs again. ><)

That's 28% percent and possibly MORE with the lock straight away! And for that to happen near the ledge at around 60-70% is actual death for bowser =O

Dsmash near the ledge is death for Bowser. Har har.

 

[Kataefi]

Hmmmm... you are right! I see Bowser's jab as the biggest problem here for her!

But she only ever needs to get it once, and it comes out on frame 5 so it's one frame faster than his jab (I'm guessing his jab frame count lmao >.> but I assume it's frame 6? ). It still clanks though. Does it outrange? I'm not too sure, but like bowser only ever needs to grab her once to do his fancy stuff, she only ever needs to lock him once to accumulate tons of the damage.

If she can buffer dtilt from shield, can she shield his 2 jabs and then punish with it after? It's one of those things that's bound to happen sooner or later in a match =( Like bowser will get a grab release at some point despite her being a complete ***** to grab in the first place xD

I see bowser's biggest threat as the dtilt lock > fair sweetspot on trip now after I realised she can get a consistent sweetspot on him tripping. 3 dtilts in general is what she normally can get at the very minimum plus a DSmash, and that does rougly 30%+ damage, but this combo will do a whopping 40%+ right off the bat anywhere between 0 to roughly 80% which is when he starts pop up and not trip instead.

It's daaangerous! Especially if she camps with din's to lure you near the edge, because Fair will kill quick from the edge at around 60% (this is right near ledge though - later percents for anything further from the ledge =) )!!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sniperworm uses both Zelda and Sheik, and he's good. Zelda definately does better on Bowser then Sheik does. The problem with Sheik is that it's very difficult for Sheik to kill Bowser. She can rack up damage just fine though. However, Bowser's Jabs just wreck total havoc against her. (I'm not kidding. Ask Sniperworm about it.)

I'm not familiar with sniperworm's sheik. anyway. a zelda/sheik is using both, not just one or the other. I know sheik has trouble killing bowser, but sheik is better at wracking up damage and doesn't have much trouble finding time to transform.

when you play sniper, does he actually use both in the same match?

 

[Villi]

Is it Fiction? lol. We were talking about Wario camping in his matches and how hard it is to punish it. I thought about it for a bit and he's right :0

No, not Fiction. BUt I'll definitely hit him up for some friendlies if I see him on Sat.

 

[MrEh]

But she only ever needs to get it once, and it comes out on frame 5 so it's one frame faster than his jab (I'm guessing his jab frame count lmao >.> but I assume it's frame 6? ). It still clanks though. Does it outrange?

Yeah, it's frame 6. Hmm...I always thought Zelda's Dtilt was 6 frames as well, but I guess not. Anyway, Bowser's Jabs definitely outrange Zelda's Dtilt. His Jabs have almost the same range as his Ftilt, but it comes out much faster and it has nearly no ending lag. So in a head on fight, Jabs will always beat Dtilts. Unless you're really close to Bowser, but that's really hard to do when Bowser spaces like a madman.

I'm not too sure, but like bowser only ever needs to grab her once to do his fancy stuff, she only ever needs to lock him once to accumulate tons of the damage.

It's a lot harder to lock Bowser when he's shooting Fire or Jabbing everywhere. Especially if he has the stage advantage.

If she can buffer dtilt from shield, can she shield his 2 jabs and then punish with it after? It's one of those things that's bound to happen sooner or later in a match =( Like bowser will get a grab release at some point despite her being a complete ***** to grab in the first place xD

I can't imagine a situation where you'll ever shield two of Bowser's Jabs. If his jabs are spaced well, then your Dtilt won't reach him anyway. If he's close to you, then he can actually cancel into a Fortress before the 2nd Jab comes out. Jabs into Fortresses rock, and it's great if your first Jab is shielded. Just Fortress and retreat, the invincibility frames and priority will protect him.

Zelda's Dsmash out of a shield is better then a Dtilt IMO. It comes out faster, and it's waaay annoying. ><

I see bowser's biggest threat as the dtilt lock > fair sweetspot on trip now after I realised she can get a consistent sweetspot on him tripping. 3 dtilts in general is what she normally can get at the very minimum plus a DSmash, and that does rougly 30%+ damage, but this combo will do a whopping 40%+ right off the bat anywhere between 0 to roughly 80% which is when he starts pop up and not trip instead.

Nah, it's not the Dtilt lock that I worry about. In fact, I don't worry about that in the slightest. What I worry about is Zelda's Usmash. It destroys Bowser.

when you play sniper, does he actually use both in the same match?

Yes he does. Sheik for damage, Zelda for killing.

 

[-Mars-]

Ok. I've thought about the Wario-Zelda matchup very hard, and I've come to the conclusion that it is clearly in his advantage if you play extremely gay with Wario. I mean Camping Hardcore with any % lead possible. Zelda is forced to approach, run's slower than Wario moves in the air, and she loses. If he messes up and gets hit (shouldn't, but it is possible), he approaches her until he gets a % lead again and starts camping again.

When I say hardcore camping, I mean giving you no shot at all at hitting him. Ever.

I agree that the matchup is in Wario's favor, but please don't be silly and give high level Zelda players a little credit.

Her horizontal aerial movement speed is actually pretty good, I remember a thread about it made a long time ago. If she's moving through the air, she's not even all that slow and her nair and bair are extremely quick aerials.

She has good grab range as well, any Zelda player with half a brain will be able to grab you during your landing lag. I'm aware that Wario is crazy in the air and extremely hard to predict.......but you can't just hop all over the place and expect a competent player to never be able to touch you.

 

[DMG]

I agree that the matchup is in Wario's favor, but please don't be silly and give high level Zelda players a little credit.

Her horizontal aerial movement speed is actually pretty good, I remember a thread about it made a long time ago. If she's moving through the air, she's not even all that slow and her nair and bair are extremely quick aerials.

She has good grab range as well, any Zelda player with half a brain will be able to grab you during your landing lag. I'm aware that Wario is crazy in the air and extremely hard to predict.......but you can't just hop all over the place and expect a competent player to never be able to touch you.

Actually, I do expect even very good players to have extreme difficulty hitting Wario when he camps her.

If you want to grab him, you have to be moving/facing in his direction correct? Well she runs slower than he can move in the air, and he can jump from one end of FD to probably 3/4's the entire distance of FD if he wants to go one direction. And if he needs to change directions, then Zelda can't really just turn around and catch him either. If you get close, we can airdodge and now you only have 2 frames to punish us from landing with a grab, and that is assuming you are right in front of us, which would be pretty hard to do on a Wario since he can move faster than you can run.

She is ok in the air, but she changes directions pretty slow compared to Wario. That and Wario ***** Zelda in the air, and you might get hit for trying that while he runs after wards anyways.

 

[-Mars-]

Actually, I do expect even very good players to have extreme difficulty hitting Wario when he camps her.

If you want to grab him, you have to be moving/facing in his direction correct? Well she runs slower than he can move in the air, and he can jump from one end of FD to probably 3/4's the entire distance of FD if he wants to go one direction. And if he needs to change directions, then Zelda can't really just turn around and catch him either. If you get close, we can airdodge and now you only have 2 frames to punish us from landing with a grab, and that is assuming you are right in front of us, which would be pretty hard to do on a Wario since he can move faster than you can run.

She is ok in the air, but she changes directions pretty slow compared to Wario. That and Wario ***** Zelda in the air, and you might get hit for trying that while he runs after wards anyways.

Ok, so I ban FD. The other large stages have platforms on them. Zelda can use Farores and teleport cancel all over the stage with no lag whatsoever. I'm assuming you have seen this before......teleport cancelling makes her far quicker than Wario. Granted, no Zelda player has completely mastered this technique yet.....but Zelda isn't helpless against a Wario camping.

God I wish teleport cancelling didn't require so much precision.....it is too good.

 

[NinjaLink]

DID SOMEONE SAY TELEPORT CANCELLING

lmao

did i master TC?hmm............................................................................

funny hes right. Bowser could spam fsmash and zelda is gonna have a hard time punishing it. Zelda dtilt is frame 5. Just checked yesterday for myself.

 

[DMG]

Ok, so I ban FD. The other large stages have platforms on them. Zelda can use Farores and teleport cancel all over the stage with no lag whatsoever. I'm assuming you have seen this before......teleport cancelling makes her far quicker than Wario. Granted, no Zelda player has completely mastered this technique yet.....but Zelda isn't helpless against a Wario camping.

God I wish teleport cancelling didn't require so much precision.....it is too good.

Platform canceling does not make her catch Wario any better, platforms make it a lot easier to run around. Even on cramped stages he can run away from her very well.

And yeah I thought Dtilt was frame 5, was surprised people kept saying it was frame 6. Maybe they thought it meant 5 frames to come out and hits on the 6th?

 

[-Mars-]

Platform canceling does not make her catch Wario any better, platforms make it a lot easier to run around. Even on cramped stages he can run away from her very well.

And yeah I thought Dtilt was frame 5, was surprised people kept saying it was frame 6. Maybe they thought it meant 5 frames to come out and hits on the 6th?

It allows for more mindgaming purposes and things of that nature and it makes Wario react instead of the other way around. Zelda is not some slow behemoth, I really don't see why people can't understand this. Even using Farores on stage allows for multiple places where I can reappear and force Wario to reset his spacing.

Dtilt only comes out on frame 5 on the earliest possible frame. Since it's a dtilt.....you have to crouch and tilt. Unless you buffer it, it's not coming out on frame 5 in most cases.....especially not OoS.

edit: oh and if a Bowser was spamming fsmash against me, Dins would actually become semi-useful.

 

[Villi]

I don't know if crouching takes any frames. A crouch + a dtilt is 5 frames. I got one odd reading of a dtilt coming out on frame 3 while I was crouching, but it could have just been me misinterpreting. I haven't been able to retest anything since I'm Wiiless, but a 5 frame dtilt isn't outta the question.

If someone wants to test for me if dtilt comes out in 3 frames from a crouch, go into versus mode, have Zelda crouch in front of Ike and pause the game. Then hold the A button with both characters and unpause it. Zelda and ke should both dtilt and jab respectively as soon as the game unpauses. If dtilt comes out frame three, they should clank if Ike doesn't just end up jabbing her head or getting kicked in the shin. >.>; Lemme know, I'm curious. lol

 

[DMG]

It allows for more mindgaming purposes and things of that nature and it makes Wario react instead of the other way around. Zelda is not some slow behemoth, I really don't see why people can't understand this. Even using Farores on stage allows for multiple places where I can reappear and force Wario to reset his spacing.

Farores has quite a bit of start up though, it's not something instant that has only a bit ok cool down lag, it takes awhile to get started, always is the same duration, and has cooldown with a explosion that tells you where she is. She won't catch Wario, she's not a slow behemoth but she is slow, and her approaching is subpar. He can Boost Smash away, jump in the air and get away, use his bike to get super high and come back down, etc. She cannot reasonably catch him if he decides to run around all day.

 

[-Mars-]

Farores has quite a bit of start up though, it's not something instant that has only a bit ok cool down lag, it takes awhile to get started, always is the same duration, and has cooldown with a explosion that tells you where she is. She won't catch Wario, she's not a slow behemoth but she is slow, and her approaching is subpar. He can Boost Smash away, jump in the air and get away, use his bike to get super high and come back down, etc. She cannot reasonably catch him if he decides to run around all day.

If this was honestly the case......then this matchup would be bordering along the lines of a hard counter...like a 7-3 or a 8-2 <_<.

 

[Villi]

Someone's gotta get hit sometime. To put another spin on it ... Wario is just as vulnerable approaching Zelda as Zelda is approaching him. I'd like to see Wario try to approach a Zelda who adamantly will not approach without taking a lot of damage in the process. If Wario is running around trying not to get hit, it just takes one correct guess with an up air or lightning kick to give Zelda some momentum. Heck, nair actually has useable priority in this matchup.

 

[DMG]

If this was honestly the case......then this matchup would be bordering along the lines of a hard counter...like a 7-3 or a 8-2 <_<.

It is... Actually to be honest a lot of Wario's matchups are like that for him because he can do that and they can't catch him. Take a Snake for example to Brinstar, RC, CS, or any stage with some room and you can seriously win by just hoping around all day. You can even do it on flat stages that are relatively small and he can win. You can do this to Dedede, who we used to think hard countered us, until we realized we don't have to approach him and we win. Same for just about every hard counter Wario had, they are now in his favor when you force them to approach.

At the very top level, once Wario starts to play gay, he is really hard for any character to beat once he gets a lead. When most people talk about his matchups, they ask how he will approach. What they should ask instead is "How can I catch him once he gets a lead?"

Edit:

Someone's gotta get hit sometime. To put another spin on it ... Wario is just as vulnerable approaching Zelda as Zelda is approaching him. I'd like to see Wario try to approach a Zelda who adamantly will not approach without taking a lot of damage in the process. If Wario is running around trying not to get hit, it just takes one correct guess with an up air or lightning kick to give Zelda some momentum. Heck, nair actually has useable priority in this matchup.

I don't get hit when I do this. If Zelda is slower than me on the ground and in the air, then how do you expect for her to catch me? If she goes in the air, I can try to jump above her, retreat, go through her with an airdodge or fast fall an airdodge, I can do a lot of stuff.

She cannot reasonably expect to Catch Wario while he is running around. Zelda is quite easy to approach compared to Wario, he can actually catch her, work his way inside, super armor a move, etc. If he loses his lead, all he has to do is go hit you and get it back, where as Zelda is struggling to hit him period and when she does she can't run away from him all day.

 

[Villi]

I don't get hit when I do this. If Zelda is slower than me on the ground and in the air, then how do you expect for her to catch me? If she goes in the air, I can try to jump above her, retreat, go through her with an airdodge or fast fall an airdodge, I can do a lot of stuff.

She cannot reasonably expect to Catch Wario while he is running around. Zelda is quite easy to approach compared to Wario, he can actually catch her, work his way inside, super armor a move, etc. If he loses his lead, all he has to do is go hit you and get it back, where as Zelda is struggling to hit him period and when she does she can't run away from him all day.

You're going to have to go through Zelda at some point.

Edit: Sorry for the short response, but playing brawl in my head is just not as fun as doing it with a controller in my hand. Especially when I'm fighting Wario Man.

 

[-Mars-]

So I guess I am agreed with DMG. MK, DDD, Wario, Jiggs, and Kirby are all unhittable by us. It's a sad day for Zelda's metagame......we might as well change all of these matchups to 20-80's.

If you want to go by that logic, a lot of Zelda's matchups would be impossible.