Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[-Mars-]

I think we should change Falco to neutral, Diddy to 45:55, and Marth to 35:65.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think we should change Falco to neutral, Diddy to 45:55, and Marth to 35:65.

diddy and marth should stay I think, but moving falco down to 55:45 instead of 60:40 isn't an awful idea.

 

[-Mars-]

diddy and marth should stay I think, but moving falco down to 55:45 instead of 60:40 isn't an awful idea.

I don't know, Marth is never hard for me....but then again I haven't ever played any exceptional Marths that had a complete understanding of his spacing and his punishment game.

I think we primarily put the Diddy matchup where it was based on the fact that Zelda is scary with a banana in her hands. If you look at the matchup from the perspective of the Diddy player being smart and having total control over them.........this matchup is extremely difficult. Sure Zelda kills earlier, but she's going to constantly have to deal with Diddy's extreme pressure game.

Falco is iffy, i'm of the opinion that Zelda loses to any character with a good camp game, but if all of you think we have an advantage.....then maybe i'm just wrong.

 

[Kataefi]

Right so Marth stays as he is - Falco goes down to 55:45? (I agree with this) - Diddy stays? I still think Zelda does beastly against him, have you checked out the new matches with Villi's Zelda against diddy? I think that showcases Zelda's tiny advantage well despite being under heavy fire from bananas.

What about the Ice Climbers? Are they definitely 65:35? They're one of my easiest matchups personally and I do agree that without those grabs she'd be more than a hard counter, but still one grab is one stock!

What about ZSS? Snakee is under the impression that Zelda loses out but we've got even or Zelda's slight advantage!

I'll update this all on that chart thingy and royal can probably update here as well ^^

EDIT:: what do people think about wolf still? I think it's getting easier and easier for me the more I fight him =O I believe it could be even.

 

[NinjaLink]

Zelda does lose. I kno months ago i did that matchup with him and it wa so ***** annoying. ZSS outspaces and another character u really cant get inside.

 

[Kataefi]

How much does she lose out? Is it that bad? 45:55 sound good?

 

[-Mars-]

Right so Marth stays as he is - Falco goes down to 55:45? (I agree with this) - Diddy stays? I still think Zelda does beastly against him, have you checked out the new matches with Villi's Zelda against diddy? I think that showcases Zelda's tiny advantage well despite being under heavy fire from bananas.

What about the Ice Climbers? Are they definitely 65:35? They're one of my easiest matchups personally and I do agree that without those grabs she'd be more than a hard counter, but still one grab is one stock!

What about ZSS? Snakee is under the impression that Zelda loses out but we've got even or Zelda's slight advantage!

I'll update this all on that chart thingy and royal can probably update here as well ^^

EDIT:: what do people think about wolf still? I think it's getting easier and easier for me the more I fight him =O I believe it could be even.

Oh ya I forgot ZSS. I think she has an advantage on us as well. Definitely outspaces us and wins the matchup once she's in her plasma whip range. As usual we have the KO power advantage, but ZSS racks damage very quickly. I think of ZSS as Sheik with far more range.

Icies should be 60:40, I really don't think we hard counter them or anything.

Wolf is still in his favor, bair spacing and good ol' laser camping make it very hard for Zelda to get inside. He also has dsmash for kills and outranges us on the ground with his fsmash. He punishes any mistake we make very well.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've never had trouble against ZSS, but I've never played any who are really good. so if y'all think she has the advantage then put it. though I imagine it'd have to be a small one.

 

[NinjaLink]

I'll try to play snakeee and record it if anything.

 

[Kataefi]

good stuff!

About ICs, if she can stop their desynchs completely and poke with FSmash safely, how on earth are they even going to get through? And also she destroys nana at early percents because she's so easy to get caught with uair or a lightning kick.

And their grab range is terrible in comparison to her range. I really think this could be one of her easiest matchups.

EDIT:: about plasma whip - is it's hitbox all over the wire or just at the tip? and can it be spotdodged to whatever? Zelda kills her at crazy percents and she's also tall for LKs.

 

[NinjaLink]

its at both ends of it.

 

[Kataefi]

ok and also what is perspective on the ice climbers? I honestly don't think they're much of a problem at all! Easier than fox/dedede/kirby amongst others I'd say and we have 60:40s with those characters anyway =O

It's just that grab, but if she can avoid it (which she can with FSmash or whatever) and separate them (which she can do really well), then I can only really see her getting grabbed once or twice a match if she slips up and by that time she's probably got them down to one stock remaining =O

 

[MrEh]

Battlefield is still better for Zelda than Bowser, but Yoshi's is easily our worst neutral due to recovery problems.

Battlefiled is debatable I think. Yoshi's is just annoying.

Grrr ... Yoshi's is dumb

This is true.

yes. I agree. Zelda's defensive and offensive games are both aided by battlefield's layout. lighning kicks become easier and she becomes even harder to approach. I really don't know why zelda would be approaching bowser anyway. he should have to approach her. Start camping on a platform and we'll throw din's at you until you move.

Yeah, Bowser will have to approach, but that doesn't mean he has to rush in. He can still space, and all he really has to do is get close enough to Zelda to make you wary of using Din's. And Bowser will never camp on a platform, he'll camp under it.

you might not get hit by it much, but there's no reason zelda has to move until you get close. and, once you're close, well then, you aren't camping are you? and once zelda gets under you... you really lack any good options besides running away.

Bowser's blind spot underneath him is easily exploited on Final Destination. Platforms actually hinder those sort approaches, since Bowser can just Fortress off of them or Bomb the ledge. It's a lot harder to get Bowser in the air on Battlefield.

Battlefield is one of zelda's best stages and, while bowser may like it and even take advantage of it, he's not beating out zelda as far as stage advantages go on battlefield.

I think he does win there, but only slightly. To each his own though.

stage striking wise, you say you'll strike FD and we'll strike YI. whatever the 5th random is, we'll probably strike it because none of them are all that kind to her and that leaves smashville and battlefield.

It would be far better for you to take him to Smashville. Any advantages that Zelda has on stages with platforms are outweighed by Bowser's weakness on flat stages. Take advantage of that weakness, exploit it.

 

[Kataefi]

MrEh do you think you could do the writeup on bowser summary for this thread? --> link

There's no rush for it at all so if you can do it just do if you have any spare time (not playing brawl and in tourneys xD ) Don't worry about formatting either!

Also, shall I put bowser as slight advantage for Zelda 55-45 on the chart? Is this agreeable for everyone?

And in general for all Zeldas, don't forget the dtilt trip > sweetspot thing on bowser and dk. I know it might be hard to land but it's still there for use.

 

[MrEh]

MrEh do you think you could do the writeup on bowser summary for this thread? --> link

There's no rush for it at all so if you can do it just do if you have any spare time (not playing brawl and in tourneys xD ) Don't worry about formatting either!

I can do it, no problem.

Also, shall I put bowser as slight advantage for Zelda 55-45 on the chart? Is this agreeable for everyone?

No problems here. 55-45 or 60-40 are both fine, but I'm leaning more towards the 55-45.


Oh, and going to counterpick discussion, try to take Bowser to Japes. The high ceiling and low horizontal blastlines do not favor him.

Obviously, don't take him to Norfair. No one goes even with Bowser on Norfair except for maybe Meta. XD

 

[Takumaru]

MrEh makes me wanna start playing bowser...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

with the way the stages are looking. I'm now even more solid on thinking that zelda has a solid advantage (60:40)

she exploits platforms better than bowser for the most part and bowser has bigger trouble with flat, open stages than she does. Seems like all bowser's good stages are better for zelda and all zelda's bad stages are worse for bowser with the odd exception of norfair.

bowser might make it a close match if he were allowed to play defensively, but a patient enough zelda should make that a chore for him.

I really don't see this as any less than 60:40... and that's without factoring in sheik.

 

[Kataefi]

I'm in split minds about the ratio. DarkMusician is amazing, but he's also a different zelda personality and I believe he has a different playstyle (though just as effective or better) to perhaps other zeldas (like Ninjalink, who I see as being a more aggressive Zelda for some odd reason). I think we're looking at this matchup right now solely from a MrEh vs DarkMusician perspective.

I rarely see DarkM use dtilt that much in his videos and MrEh you said yourself that DarkM has never tried to spam Dtilts on you. It's one of her faster options and one frame slower than her DSmash, which is a great punisher in general. So maybe instead of DSmashing, why not dtilt instead? That trip to sweetspot combo or whatever you want to call it is massive damage right off the bat and deadly if done near the edge. It only takes one trip to do as well, and dtilt normally trips when fresh so at say around 70% near the ledge if Bowser trips and is sweetspotted it could kill him =O

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't personally like DM's zelda. Honestly no other zelda plays like that so it's hard to base matchups off of it. He's really good, so it works for him, but I don't think that the playstyle he uses is the most effective for a lot of the matchups.

I personally like what I see from Ryoko and NinjaLink more. though DM's is definitely good, I think he's probably not playing the best style for fighting a bowser. he seems to poke a lot... and that's not good against bowser really.

just my view though.

 

[Witch_]

Hiyas.

Noob question #1: What is it about Norfair that makes it a good stage for Bowser, anyway?

I've never played a match there against anyone but Diddies.

 

[Kataefi]

His style works for hawaii and he consistently places top 5 with her despite going against tough competition, which definitely says something about his playstyle.

I like his style =) And it just goes to show Zelda isn't as one-dimensional as people make her out to be. But I never see him use dtilt, he'd **** if he mastered the lock properties of it or whatever.

 

[-Mars-]

Hiyas.

Noob question #1: What is it about Norfair that makes it a good stage for Bowser, anyway?

I've never played a match there against anyone but Diddies.

I would assume it would have something to do with him being able to cancel his Bowser bomb all over the place and doing some cool stuff with his fortress.

Anything else about Norfair though Mr. Eh?

 

[MrEh]

all zelda's bad stages are worse for bowser with the odd exception of norfair.

Yoshi's Island is in Bowser's favor though. It's not that great of a stage for Zelda, and Bowser can camp pretty hard on that stage.

I'm in split minds about the ratio. DarkMusician is amazing, but he's also a different zelda personality and I believe he has a different playstyle (though just as effective or better) to perhaps other zeldas (like Ninjalink, who I see as being a more aggressive Zelda for some odd reason). I think we're looking at this matchup right now solely from a MrEh vs DarkMusician perspective.

Aggressive Zelda does not work on Bowser. Bowser is not a character that you should be overly aggressive against. Bowser is pretty much the definition of punishment, and he can do so with incredible ferocity. Fortress OoS is mentioned all the time, and for a very good reason. It works.

I rarely see DarkM use dtilt that much in his videos and MrEh you said yourself that DarkM has never tried to spam Dtilts on you. It's one of her faster options and one frame slower than her DSmash, which is a great punisher in general. So maybe instead of DSmashing, why not dtilt instead?

DarkMusician does Dtilt, but not much. The reason for that is probably because the Dtilt lock is escapable if you spam it too much. He'll usually Dtilt a couple of times, and then Dsmash. Plus, as I mentioned before, Bowser is very hard to hit with a Dtilt. If you're close enough to Bowser to use your Dtilt, then you're in a big danger zone. Any area in front of Bowser's face is bad. Very bad.

Oh, and in friendlies with DM today, I figured out that you can Fortress out of the Dtilt Lock. The invincibility frames of the Fortress cut right through it.

That trip to sweetspot combo or whatever you want to call it is massive damage right off the bat and deadly if done near the edge. It only takes one trip to do as well, and dtilt normally trips when fresh so at say around 70% near the ledge if Bowser trips and is sweetspotted it could kill him =O

Again, Bowser can just Fortress out of the lock. And like always, it's going to be very difficult to Dtilt him when he's flinging Jabs around. Jabs are just too good.

I don't personally like DM's zelda. Honestly no other zelda plays like that so it's hard to base matchups off of it. He's really good, so it works for him, but I don't think that the playstyle he uses is the most effective for a lot of the matchups.

His playstyle works well against a Bowser though.

I personally like what I see from Ryoko and NinjaLink more. though DM's is definitely good, I think he's probably not playing the best style for fighting a bowser. he seems to poke a lot... and that's not good against bowser really.

Actually....

Poking is like, the best thing you can do to a Bowser. Getting overly aggressive simply doesn't work against him. You need to play very cautiously, otherwise Bowser will just run all over you with his punishment game.

His style works for hawaii and he consistently places top 5 with her despite going against tough competition, which definitely says something about his playstyle.

His playstyle can be described in two words.

It works.

I like his style =) And it just goes to show Zelda isn't as one-dimensional as people make her out to be. But I never see him use dtilt, he'd **** if he mastered the lock properties of it or whatever.

He does use the Dtilt, but it seems like he just doesn't rely on it. The Dtilt is good, but the lock itself is not something gamebreaking. Most of the time he uses Dtilt into a Dsmash to prevent people from just breaking out of the lock and counterattacking him. The lock itself is not that scary, it can be escaped.

Noob question #1: What is it about Norfair that makes it a good stage for Bowser, anyway?

I would assume it would have something to do with him being able to cancel his Bowser bomb all over the place and doing some cool stuff with his fortress.

Anything else about Norfair though Mr. Eh?

Bowser does not die on that stage period. With six ledges to grab, Bowser can easily use his invincibility frames to jump from one ledge to another. Plus, he can camp the bottom platform and become extremely difficult to approach due to the platform placement.

To put it simply, he can Plank anyone on that stage that isn't named Meta Knight.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

who says Ninjalink has a more agressive zelda? I don't think he does.

DM plays the same zelda against most matchups. and it's awfully pokey. Ninjalink is more agressive than DM when he's being agressive, but he also is perfectly fine with waiting for his foe to approach if he wants to be defensive. I think that's how you've gotta go against bowser.

poking may be better than blind agression against him, but it's not as good as straight defense.

and yoshi's island isn't a BAD stage for zelda.... it's just not a good stage either, so if it's good for Bowser... he gets an advantage .

 

[MrEh]

who says Ninjalink has a more agressive zelda? I don't think he does.

I never said he has an aggressive Zelda.

poking may be better than blind agression against him, but it's not as good as straight defense

A good defense can include poking. If it's safe and puts pressure on my shield, why not utilize it?

I think that's how you've gotta go against bowser.

What you really should be focusing on is how to get Bowser in the air. I'm not joking, this is serious business. Getting Bowser in the air makes this matchup much easier.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I never said he has an aggressive Zelda.



A good defense can include poking. If it's safe and puts pressure on my shield, why not utilize it?



What you really should be focusing on is how to get Bowser in the air. I'm not joking, this is serious business. Getting Bowser in the air makes this matchup much easier.

dash attack comes out lightning quick. it's terribly punishable, but if it's used to punish it pops foes up pretty well really.

Ftilt and Usmash do as well. Ftilt would be used to punish, USmash to counter approaches, sheild poke or punish dodges.

 

[Kataefi]

USmash is seriously amazing on bowser because it sucks him right and he has no move really that can outprioritise it except possibly the klaw but he'll need to time almost perfectly and come from diagonally.

 

[MrEh]

USmash is seriously amazing on bowser because it sucks him right and he has no move really that can outprioritise it except possibly the klaw but he'll need to time almost perfectly and come from diagonally.

This is true.

In the air, your Usmash beats all his aerials except for his Klaw. And that's situational.

 

[Kataefi]

MrEh - JUST IN TIME. Please can you test something for me? I want to know if Zelda can regrab MK again from a grab air release if everything is frame perfect.

I know he has enough time to execute an attack or dodge, but that's right before he lands so it will cancel immediately and the hitbox may not come out with enough range to rival her grab range.

If you can test it for me that would be grand xD

 

[MrEh]

MrEh - JUST IN TIME. Please can you test something for me? I want to know if Zelda can regrab MK again from a grab air release if everything is frame perfect.

I know he has enough time to execute an attack or dodge, but that's right before he lands so it will cancel immediately and the hitbox may not come out with enough range to rival her grab range.

If you can test it for me that would be grand xD

No testing required, since I tested a lot of this a long time ago.

Zelda can't regrab Meta, since he can jump before she can grab him. Zelda runs too slow....

 

[Kataefi]

Awe man =( I really thought I had something there.

Anyways can she catch him out of the jump? And she can reach him before he falls to the ground because of her grab range despite her slow speed, but timing is strict!

 

[MrEh]

Awe man =( I really thought I had something there.

Anyways can she catch him out of the jump? And she can reach him before he falls to the ground because of her grab range despite her slow speed, but timing is strict!

Oh sorry, I was talking about a jump release earlier. ><

If Meta Ground Releases, he can attack her before she can grab him. Or he can just dodge or roll out of the way. If Meta Jump Releases, he can use a jump before hitting the ground, so he can evade Zelda's dashing grab that way. Meta actually regains control right before hitting the ground, so most regrabs can be escaped just by jumping.



Oh, and have you guys ever wondered what happens when a Bowser player and a Zelda player team up? A lot of stupidity happens.

DarkMusician and Mr. Eh?: the most ******** team ever 1
DarkMusician and Mr. Eh?: the most ******** team ever 2
DarkMusician and Mr. Eh?: the most ******** team ever 3

And yes, this is clearly a joke.

 

[GreyFox86]

ROFL DKC2 is a good game and you just owned that level in less the 1 minute. Go you.

 

[NinjaLink]

Yes i am an aggressive zelda but only against chars i can be aggressive against. Bowser U have to be psuedo-aggresive. Like u have to weave in and out. Bowser has up-b.....u cant pressure him in the same fashion as other chars. U can condition the bowser player and make him up-b prematurely and punish him for it. Theres no bowsers here i can really like show this matchup with so i can just explain it being i play both chars and can see it from both sides.

 

[MrEh]

Yes i am an aggressive zelda but only against chars i can be aggressive against. Bowser U have to be psuedo-aggresive. Like u have to weave in and out. Bowser has up-b.....u cant pressure him in the same fashion as other chars. U can condition the bowser player and make him up-b prematurely and punish him for it. Theres no bowsers here i can really like show this matchup with so i can just explain it being i play both chars and can see it from both sides.

This man speaks the truth.

 

[GreyFox86]

This man speaks the truth.

That's because NinjaLink is the man of everything that is Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I spent the extended weekend ith my BFF pyrogamer and I played my zelda against all of his chacrters.

His mains are wario and DDD and, for the life of him, he couldn't beat me with either of them. I'd normally say he's just as good as me at the game, but my zelda beats his wario and hard. I'm really not sure how the matchup could possibly be anything but zelda's advantage. DDD wasn't as easy as wario and he was still easy for zelda.

in fact it wasn't until he pulled out his olimar that he really managed to beat zelda a reliable amount at all, and even olimar went about even with sheik.

 

[-Mars-]

Hey Sonic, have Pyro jump around trying to avoid you with Wario like DMG was saying and see if it really is "impossible" to land a hit on him.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Hey Sonic, have Pyro jump around trying to avoid you with Wario like DMG was saying and see if it really is "impossible" to land a hit on him.

I told him and he tried.

he said it's bull ****. if he's less that perfect with one airdodge, the lingering hitboxes of nair, fsmash or Usmash would catch and punish him every time. and then when he tried to approach he got outprioritized by zelda at least 2/3 of the time.

chomp punished my sheil or dodge, but lost out to virtually every attack.

bike proved about wortless... I DTILTED HIM OFF THE BIKE for goodness' sake. and I mangaed to get him off with a smash or Din's far more often.

caught him in Dtilt locks/set ups. punished mistimed airdodges with din's. it was ugly. he tried to approach with Ftilt some, but that was punishable with zelda's range.

he said he can't possibly imagine how it could be a bad matchup for zelda since it seemed like every move I threw out hit him.

his cooldown got punished by power aerials too. all he had on me was that he could live to higher percentages than I could, but unless I got royally screwed by the stage, he said he couldn't peirce my sparkly wall and, while wario is weavy, he couldn't run a away forever. all it did was delay things, it didn't actually help him.


Actually, come to think of it, Zelda's nair was amazing. it kept outprioritizing everything and actually led into follow ups. plus it did nice enough damage since it landed so much to give me the ticket to camp with a damage advantage.

 

[DMG]

Hey Sonic, have Pyro jump around trying to avoid you with Wario like DMG was saying and see if it really is "impossible" to land a hit on him.

Did you see Fiction camping Leepuff, DSF, DEHF, etc? If he can camp G&W, what makes you think he can't do it to Zelda? G&W approaches a lot better than Zelda can hope for, and I've even pointed out things like Wario moves faster in the air than Zelda can run.

Some of you have disregarded my input and labeled it as "theory craft" while we have vids of Wario doing this to characters that approach better than Zelda.

But of course, I wouldn't know ANYTHING about Wario's matchups. It's not like I'm "good" or anything *Checks sig and see's Azen's shoutout*

If someone has a counter argument, it better not be something like "Zelda has a perfect wall of priority or if she is good enough she shouldn't get hit period." THAT would be theory craft compared to my statements lol.

Sorry to go off topic some, but honestly I think we have enough proof to validate that Wario has the advantage for this matchup.