Why do we NOT ban Ice Climber Chain Grabs?

[LanceStern]

I'm not here to discredit Lain or any other Ice Climber user who spaces well, desynchs and pulls off awesome tech stuff and gaming.

But the more I watch videos of IceClimber matches (I'm looking mostly at APEX M2k vs. Lain) the more I am disgusted when I see one grab from Ice Climber = an instant KO. I get more and more disgusted with each match I watch. It's not like D3's grab that terminates at the end of a stage, and Falcos CG -> spike is garbage too, but the ICs are standing in place and can instant KO anyone, it's an infinite.

I don't like the "don't get grabbed" argument or the "it's hard to grab" argument because it fails. Have you seen all the desynching -> grab setups the ICs come up with?

Why could we possibly consider banning metaknight of being broken (when most characters are figuring out the matchup) and completely ignore IC Chain Grab. Why do we ban D3's standing infinite that only works on a few characters but ICs can do it to the entire cast? Why do we ban wobbling?

Edit: Oh and I acknowledge this has probably been discussed already.




ANTI-BAN
-----------
- If it was broken ICs would be dominating tournies
- Even the strongest ICs mess up on the CG sometime
- ICs have horrible grab range and it's easy to split them up.
- Just space better and you won't get grabbed
- Learn the matchup. You can also KO and then run the timer out.


PRO-BAN
----------
- It's broken. We rack up damage, then get grabbed = we die.
- One grab = instant KO no matter the percentage
- Whether people are winning tournies or not, it's an unfair tactic.
- Just ebcause people mess up doesn't mean it isn't broken. Still leads from 0 - death or 0 - KO percentage or your crippled.
- Why ban wobbling / D3's standing infinite if the IC chain grab is legal?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Three reasons:

1) Their chaingrabs are limited when separated (which some characters can do easily)

2) The chaingrabs involved take a ton of skill to do consistently.

3) Their pitiful grab range.


Quite a few characters can get around their chaingrab quite easily. And besides, their infinites weren't banned in Melee, so why should they be banned in Brawl?

Now, if they had DDD's grab range, they'd probably be broken...l

 

[Zankoku]

Because an Ice Climbers player has yet to actually win in a national level tournament, so clearly there is a non-broken aspect at some level.

 

[feardragon64]

What Anko said.
And to your "Don't get grabbed" is not a valid argument part...

Have you seen some of the brickwalls IC's have to get through to get a grab?

 

[-LzR-]

Also, if they were banned, all reason to play IC would be ruined.

 

[2001]

IC's chaingrabs are gay but not broken. I used to think that they should be banned but you just have to go along with the gay. (Air plank, platform camp, turtle, etc.)

 

[Zeallyx]

Banning CG's completely is silly imo.

Limiting them, when nescissary, is something else, though. (Though hard to watch over so no one breaks said limitations, when nescissary.)

And yeah, the fact nana had AI doesnt help the ice climbers. (As both are needed to maximize their CG potential, which is what this thread is about.)

And also what Ankoku said. Them not winning a national level tournament (yet), also tells one something.

 

[phi1ny3]

Because there's way too many factors to tie to them to merely consider them truly gamebreaking, they have very exploitable weaknesses, including the fact that taking Nana off the map = free stock for the opponent in many aspects. Even getting them separated can potentially add sooo much damage to them and it's almost comical.
That and the fact that nobody is going to probably truly master them where they aren't affected by anything, and some characters play really gay to get away from getting grabbed.

 

[LanceStern]

I'm watching the Lain vs. M2k APEX matches...

You either have to play really cheap back (which leads to tense but boring matches) or you rush in and get grabbed. How does that advance any metagame?

I understand the reasoning though. It's just really frustrating watching such a cheap way to get a KO

 

[Melomaniacal]

I lol'd at "grab setups."

Ice Climbers have no legitimate grab setups. The only ones that may work is due to bad DI on the opponents part.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I have a bunch of sets of me vs Lain and a set of me vs Meep. (just search alphazealot + lain on youtube or alphazealot + meep). Watch em, they are probably 10X more exciting then the mew2king vs lain matches.

 

[sunshade]

Boring and dull to watch and being broken to the point of banning are two very different things. I will agree that watching someone getting taken from zero-death from a single grab seems unfair however the fact of it is that before that grab happened the player had many options to avoid it. Playing more defensively, camping, learning to space, separating Nana and allowing the bad AI to play its part, are all valid tactics to removing the potency of the chain grab and if you are grabbed there is always the ability to mash out. On the flip-side if a player is skilled enough to learn how to chain-grab every single character in the game through hours of practice and precision why should we not reward them for their skill and effort?

 

[Zeallyx]

I'm watching the Lain vs. M2k APEX matches...

You either have to play really cheap back (which leads to tense but boring matches) or you rush in and get grabbed. How does that advance any metagame?

I understand the reasoning though. It's just really frustrating watching such a cheap way to get a KO

Thats brawl for ya.

 

[Baro]

Yeeeah. I really wish IC chaingrabs were banned. This is coming from an ICs player.

then again, I am silly

 

[BadAxel97]

I understand the frustration in getting instantly KO'd by one mistake (or trip, for that matter), but I feel that banning ICs CGs is not necessary yet.
Until players as a whole start easily mastering this ability and abusing it to the point that IC is consistently winning tournaments, this shouldn't be a problem...because it cant really be described as broken until...well...it breaks the system.
Which I haven't seen evidence of yet.
And sure, I completely agree with you in some aspects, I get pissed when an infinite GC comes up and gets a, essentially, indefensible kill in...but you have to understand the pressure, setup, skill, (and a little luck) that goes into it on the Ice Climbers side, and not just the opponents side.

And sometimes...all you can do is hope to not get grabbed.

 

[Baro]

There's no reason for people to not know how to do Ice Climbers chaingrabs. It can come in handy someday.

 

[Chuee]

Also, a lot of times IC players will mess up the CG and the opponent will get out.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm not for banning IC CGs. With that said, saying "because they're hard" is dumb.

 

[xDD-Master]

Because Snake exist ^^

 

[Steeler]

it's not banned because you can do even gayer stuff in this game. for example, the cgs lose out to the superior gay of running away and timing them out.

honestly, it is really silly to have a character than can infinite every character in the game with a grab.

 

[Nefarious B]

I'm not for banning IC CGs. With that said, saying "because they're hard" is dumb.

I'm glad someone finally brought this up, this is a huge flaw in the anti ban argument, and I constantly hear people saying it. If it's broke it's broke, you have to assume that if it can be done someone will do it. "Because it takes effort to learn" is just a bad way to argue, because people will put in the effort.

 

[Praxis]

I don't like the "don't get grabbed" argument or the "it's hard to grab" argument because it fails. Have you seen all the desynching -> grab setups the ICs come up with?

"because it fails"? Yet, the argument has been proven by the fact that no Ice Climber player has ever won a major regional/national. Lain wins some decent-sized stuff, but there are a number of players that will always beat the top ICs if present, without using ICs in return.

Thus, "don't get grabbed" is viable.

You only ban something when it has clear and far-reaching effects on the metagame. If the best IC mains can't win the tournaments, then the ICs clearly aren't broken enough to overwhelm the metagame. "Because it's gay" isn't a reason to ban it.

When we see multiple ICs in the top eight, THEN we need to think about this.

Why could we possibly consider banning metaknight of being broken (when most characters are figuring out the matchup) and completely ignore IC Chain Grab.

Because I've never seen a tournament with over 70 attendees and two or more Ice Climbers mains in the top eight?

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm glad someone finally brought this up, this is a huge flaw in the anti ban argument, and I constantly hear people saying it. If it's broke it's broke, you have to assume that if it can be done someone will do it. "Because it takes effort to learn" is just a bad way to argue, because people will put in the effort.

That's like 6 months ago logic.
Still, getting a grab on some characters is far easier said than done <_<;

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I think you should limit the damage you're allowed to deal per chaingrab, differing per character.
(like gaw 70 dedede 120 which is probably a bad start)

its just to much of a comeback

 

[Praxis]

I think you should limit the damage you're allowed to deal per chaingrab, differing per character.
(like gaw 70 dedede 120 which is probably a bad start)

its just to much of a comeback

And if I accidentally pass that number by 1%? What then? I get DQ'd? What if there is a dispute over it because someone didn't see the percentage they started at?

What if I grab G&W at 30%, CG him over to the ledge and spike him off at 99%, staying within the 70% limit you enforced?

This isn't enforceable at all.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

And if I accidentally pass that number by 1%? What then? I get DQ'd? What if there is a dispute over it because someone didn't see the percentage they started at?

What if I grab G&W at 30%, CG him over to the ledge and spike him off at 99%, staying within the 70% limit you enforced?

This isn't enforceable at all.

give it (insert maximum damage of fthrow/dthrow/bthrow) + or -.
so if max damage is 10 it'll be like 70-80. If you pass that it's your own fault then.

If you spike him he sucks at SDI'ing. I don't hear anyone complaining about falcos cg spike cuz it's tech-able.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol that's like the worst solution ever.

Also, the cg isn't a problem. Stop johning.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

ICs have poor grab range, the setups for them barely even matter.

ICs aren't top tier material for a reason. If you have a problem w/ the CGs, use Snake, Marth, or Zelda as a secondary.

Btw, I bet some ppl here have never been CG'd by ICs so they just say, "no".

 

[magikguy]

I'm not here to discredit Lain or any other Ice Climber user who spaces well, desynchs and pulls off awesome tech stuff and gaming.

But the more I watch videos of IceClimber matches (I'm looking mostly at APEX M2k vs. Lain) the more I am disgusted when I see one grab from Ice Climber = an instant KO. I get more and more disgusted with each match I watch. It's not like D3's grab that terminates at the end of a stage, and Falcos CG -> spike is garbage too, but the ICs are standing in place and can instant KO anyone, it's an infinite.

I don't like the "don't get grabbed" argument or the "it's hard to grab" argument because it fails. Have you seen all the desynching -> grab setups the ICs come up with?

Why could we possibly consider banning metaknight of being broken (when most characters are figuring out the matchup) and completely ignore IC Chain Grab.

Edit: Oh and I acknowledge this has probably been discussed already.

i must say i did enjoy the "OHhhh" after each grab lain landed

 

[Ussi]

Look at ICs match ups... Tell me why it's broken when IC has quite a bit of unfavorable match ups. Do you want those match ups to get worse? Why break a perfectly viable character just cause it's a "cheap" kill. Just don't play the game then cause this game is "cheap" in the end :/

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lol that's like the worst solution ever.

Also, the cg isn't a problem. Stop johning.

Lol, Tyr is too good against IC's

 

[Demp]

I'm watching the Lain vs. M2k APEX matches...

You either have to play really cheap back (which leads to tense but boring matches) or you rush in and get grabbed. How does that advance any metagame?

I understand the reasoning though. It's just really frustrating watching such a cheap way to get a KO

Ally has beaten M2K on multiple occasions. Let's ban Snake too.

 

[Praxis]

give it (insert maximum damage of fthrow/dthrow/bthrow) + or -.
so if max damage is 10 it'll be like 70-80. If you pass that it's your own fault then.

If you spike him he sucks at SDI'ing. I don't hear anyone complaining about falcos cg spike cuz it's tech-able.

Instead of dthrow > spike, Popo can hold you over the ledge while Nana spikes you. I'm fairly sure you can't SDI > tech that.

Also, how do you define ending it? What if they stop the CG and then hobble you? Also, how do you define escapable? What if you only have one or two frames free to escape? Marth could've gotten out of it with his up-B. But you failed to in that one frame window, so now he can start the 80% all over again.

No, this is stupid and unenforceable.

 

[Frolossus]

i remember reading something somewhere about how out of 22 grab attempts by lain only 11 land and only 2 are 0-deaths. if someone can find where it says that id appreciate it

 

[Ripple]

Ally has beaten M2K on multiple occasions. Let's ban Snake too.

lets just ban all of S tier since they make all but A tier unviable.


btw I'm going along with the joke

 

[Melomaniacal]

Instead of dthrow > spike, Popo can hold you over the ledge while Nana spikes you. I'm fairly sure you can't SDI > tech that.

You can.

10youcans

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I have a bunch of sets of me vs Lain and a set of me vs Meep. (just search alphazealot + lain on youtube or alphazealot + meep). Watch em, they are probably 10X more exciting then the mew2king vs lain matches.

I recommend this for people who thinks anyone vs IC is boring.

 

[ADHD]

The matchup is unwinnable against diddy if he's perfectly precise, same can be said with snake, really. I don't have to camp at all though.

It's too hard to ban because the Ice climbers need it, and you can't really put a limit on it.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

can't you just glide plank them and win?

 

[ADHD]

can't you just glide plank them and win?

Yeah, you can if you want to be a douchebag for 8 minutes long.