Why Banning Tripping Should be Considered at Most National/Regional Brawl Tournaments

[Crow!]

Tripping makes inputs which involve starting the initial dash animation involve a bit of an extra risk. In some sense this adds strategic interest to deciding what actions to use when.

Frankly, I'd (almost) like the system if the punishment for having tripped were a bit less severe than it generally is. As it is, though, the game is probably slightly better without it than with.


The benefit to the removal of tripping is small, and an aversion to hacking the game to modify it is common and understandable. In light of that, I don't think trip removing hacks will ever be a universal standard.

That said, TOs are, in general, encouraged to experiment with rulesets. Evolution is a good thing, and there need to be mutations for evolution to work.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Didn't dekar lose a match at pound due to tripping right before the timer ran out?

It is his fault he lose then because he should have known the risk w/ dashing. Not saying you should never dash but in that scenario I would kept running away.

People should realize that Brawl is a very defensive game. Try using Falco Dekar.

Edit: @Crow, it is true that experimentation is good, but we are better off finding out if Brawl is better with or without MK with a temporary ban. Just a thought for everyone.

 

[clowsui]

risk w/ dashing... I would kept running away.

Running away

Running

...nuff said?

 

[Kink-Link5]

...nuff said?

Very out of context and clearly not what he meant. "Running away" obviously refers to "keeping a distance."

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Denied.

Why hack your Wii just to remove tripping when you minus well play BBrawl or Brawl- (or ProjectM if your THAT scrubby)?

Because removing tripping from brawl is removing one marginal factor that only ever comes up as a random chance that is almost completely out of player control.

Why are you dashing so much near your foe?

If you really main Kirby then try out his air game.

Edit: TLMSheikant, Missed my point. It is still a modification that differentiates the game into something else.

Pivot grabs/etc.?

No don't remove tripping, I'll get less infinites!

Anyways, with those exploits where you don't need the HBC, you only need to put the SD card in once and the codes are loaded and you can take out the SD card after that, right?

Correct. All that would be necessary would be to make sure that the codes aren't anything other than no tripping/cosmetic stuff.

And the problem with this thread is, indeed, why would you stop at tripping? Why indeed, when you can add cosmetic (custom team textures for sonic!)

Useful, unobtrusive, does not affect gameplay... Texture and music hacking is fine.

and non-gameplay (unlimited-length replays!) codes.

Doesn't change gameplay at all. I support it.

And how about the Triple Jump Glitch? Nobody likes that thing...but we can fix that. Samus' pummel not being able to hit Bowser - an obvious glitch with an easy fix. Sheik's game-freezing Chain Glitch? Infinite Dimensional Cape? Nana teleporting? All gone. How about not fastfalling when pressing the c-stick down in midair? Who wouldn't like getting that control back?

Massive, game-changing glitches that remove aspects of the game you can easily plan around and are more or less constant.

I'm not going to mention changing charactes for the sake of balance, or changing mechanics for the sake of gameplay, because then you really hit the slippery slope. However, making the Mother Boys impervious to grab release shenanigans sounds nice, eh?

The whole thing is more or less slippery slope.

It is your fault for tripping into Ike's f-smash.

I'm assuming you guys are pro-ban toward cause if your not this is ********...

This post makes 0 sense... It's my fault for tripping, a completely random event. Oh, and we have to support banning metaknight to support banning tripping...

Guys, no one should have replied to that OP; it's full of nothing but strawman arguments that I've NEVER seen used in an actual tripping debate.

The only thing in that OP that wasn't a blatant attempt to set up a sh*tty argument for the sole purpose of knocking it down was the "hacking feasibility" argument, which is a legitimate argument because then we have the risk of having codes be active that are unrelated to tripping (like someone loading a 1% damage buff to Falcon code that would be hard to track, giving people advantages).

This has been gone over a thousand times... hacking Wiis is not technically legal (even though it should be) and will never be a tournament standard.

It is legal. What's wrong with it? And finally, codes like EX Brawl uses (nothing that affects gameplay) plus no tripping (removes a random aspect of the game)... Meh.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Very out of context and clearly not what he meant. "Running away" obviously refers to "keeping a distance."

^Thanks...

...but I'm sure he was joking.

Edit: @BPC: My point was that is more likely of being a problem to the metagame than tripping. It was hard to tell what I was saying, my fault.

 

[AvaricePanda]

....

Lombardi, I don't understand your logic.

Tripping is completely anti-competitive in a way that nothing else in this game is. By choosing to use a sometimes very useful move (dash), you risk a random, direct disadvantage.

It can't be well compared to infinites because infinites are preventable by character choice and avoiding your opponent's move — it takes skill on both parts to start or avoid an infinite.

It can't be well compared to moves like Peach's downB or G&W's sideB, because while they do give random rewards, the rewards are indirect; you have to either use the turnips/whatever (which your opponent can do as well), or hit your opponent with the Judgement Hammer. Judgement Hammer is also a punishable move that's just not at the top of G&W's metagame by any means.

Tripping is the only thing that gives you an immediate disadvantage. Every time you dash (this includes charging smashes with analog stick), you run the risk of an immediate disadvantage. You can't just write off dash and say, "everybody walk lol," because some people's dash attacks are very useful, like Diddy's, and sometimes you need to dash to punish an attack.

You say that people should know the risk of dashing and just not do it — that's just hindering certain characters even more. Either choose not to use a core part of some character's playstyles, or run the risk of an immediate disadvantage that could potentially cost the match?

I realize that there aren't many instances of a trip directly causing someone to lose a set (like, last stock last game high percents, someone trips and gets F-smashed sort of deal). However, I've seen on a frequent basis that tripping can cause momentum loss, prevent you from punishing something, cause you to get hit, or grabbed into a CG, or combo'd, or infinited, or killed. The former ones aren't uncommon by any means.

Really, what Jack Kieser posted is the only legitimate concern of this. People could sneak in small codeset changes, and modifying your Wii isn't legal in the first place, so it shouldn't be a tournament standard for all Wiis to have the no-tripping code.

However, I'm all for encouraging people to put that on their Wiis on their own accord. Tripping is completely anti-competitive.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It is legal. What's wrong with it? And finally, codes like EX Brawl uses (nothing that affects gameplay) plus no tripping (removes a random aspect of the game)... Meh.

Read the EULA, broseph: any unauthorized modifications to your system, which includes running homebrew with or without an install, is a breach of contract and is illegal. Nintendo, if they wanted, could seek damages for unauthorized use of system. Sad, but true. More people need to read EULAs.

 

[Eddie G]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFikduFcQYU&feature=related

0:53
Free kill for Logic. Gtfo if you think tripping should remain after seeing that. No skill was involved in that kill whatsoever, it was free, granted, given, *insert synonym here*. What was Hunger going to do in that instance, risk jumping and getting u-smashed/f-aired anyway instead of using what-would-be a safer retreat option in that case (dash)? =/

 

[MK26]

There is a thing called discretion, we are able to take a step in one direction without going all the way. To compare the inaccuracy of the all or nothing mentality to real life I will relate it to gay marriage. I once had a conversation with a particularly dim classmate, I stated that I feel that Homosexuals have a right to marriage as it is tied to a government institute and not just religion. He responded by saying if we allow men to marry men we are going to get into a trend of allowing anyone to marry anything and soon people will be getting married to trees.

Obviously we are able to make a small change without changing everything.

whoops...that was supposed to say "what, if anything, goes..."
That certainly changes the meaning

but if we can make one small change, why can't we make two? or three? should we stop at six? why should we arbitrarily stop at 1 if we can make several similar, if not equal, changes?

EDIT: i need to get ninja'd less :/

EDITEDIT: @kink-link + bpc: that argment sounded better in my head...


EDITEDITEDIT: @jack/avarice: with the whole 'sneaking in a code' thing, you forget that we've been having Brawl+ tournaments for a while now, and nobody's tried to pull that one yet...not to mention, the benefits are minimal (really, how many times are you gonna get to play on your own setup in a big tournament), the risks are monstrous (get caught, you'd basically be the first person to get caught CHEATING at ssb - quite an honour, no?), and there's always the possibility that the host can simply take your wii before the tournament, back up your files, and replace them with a copy of the codeset off his SD...

 

[AvaricePanda]

. . . we have the risk of having codes be active that are unrelated to tripping (like someone loading a 1% damage buff to Falcon code that would be hard to track, giving people advantages).

This has been gone over a thousand times... hacking Wiis is not technically legal (even though it should be) and will never be a tournament standard.

It's not as simple as just removing tripping, sadly.

I'd encourage getting the no tripping mod as much as you can, but I don't believe you can realistically make it a tournament rule to have the no-tripping modification on every Wii.

 

[Isatis]

I'd encourage getting the no tripping mod as much as you can, but I don't believe you can realistically make it a tournament rule to have the no-tripping modification on every Wii.

This. It's too much work to make it mandatory on every Wii in a regional/national, although I fully support the idea.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Tripping doesn't affect everyone equally on a fundamental level, even; Ice Climbers have twice as much of a chance to trip, because every dash input makes both Ice Climbers dash (with the exception of some desynching stuff, but, eh).

That being said, Logic does the entirety of his movement via foxtrotting, it seems--It's no wonder he finds himself tripping often.

 

[T-block]

I'm assuming you guys are pro-ban toward cause if your not this is ********...

Haha... this guy is hilarious lol.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

....

Lombardi, I don't understand your logic.

Tripping is completely anti-competitive in a way that nothing else in this game is. By choosing to use a sometimes very useful move (dash), you risk a random, direct disadvantage.
But it is such a minor issue that I do not believe ENOUGH will change (if anything).
It can't be well compared to infinites because infinites are preventable by character choice and avoiding your opponent's move — it takes skill on both parts to start or avoid an infinite.
It also takes skill to adapt and take advantage of having other options.
It can't be well compared to moves like Peach's downB or G&W's sideB, because while they do give random rewards, the rewards are indirect; you have to either use the turnips/whatever (which your opponent can do as well), or hit your opponent with the Judgement Hammer. Judgement Hammer is also a punishable move that's just not at the top of G&W's metagame by any means.
True
Tripping is the only thing that gives you an immediate disadvantage. Every time you dash (this includes charging smashes with analog stick), you run the risk of an immediate disadvantage. You can't just write off dash and say, "everybody walk lol," because some people's dash attacks are very useful, like Diddy's, and sometimes you need to dash to punish an attack.
Try using C-stick and Z button.
You say that people should know the risk of dashing and just not do it — that's just hindering certain characters even more. Either choose not to use a core part of some character's playstyles, or run the risk of an immediate disadvantage that could potentially cost the match?
Removing tripping would result in making characters that not of Brawl, but of "some fighting/party game".
I realize that there aren't many instances of a trip directly causing someone to lose a set (like, last stock last game high percents, someone trips and gets F-smashed sort of deal). However, I've seen on a frequent basis that tripping can cause momentum loss, prevent you from punishing something, cause you to get hit, or grabbed into a CG, or combo'd, or infinited, or killed. The former ones aren't uncommon by any means.
If you lose over something that happened in the MIDDLE of the game then it is your fault for not being good enough.
Really, what Jack Kieser posted is the only legitimate concern of this. People could sneak in small codeset changes, and modifying your Wii isn't legal in the first place, so it shouldn't be a tournament standard for all Wiis to have the no-tripping code.

However, I'm all for encouraging people to put that on their Wiis on their own accord. Tripping is completely anti-competitive.

Then why aren't people wanting this changed?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Egx0bgALiA (ENDING)

It's random, it's anti-competitive, and it's hindering to the worst player, just like tripping.

Edit: @KBizzle, that is the most hilarious example I have ever seen. Seriously, he could have rolled, sheild, or even jump > air dodge. Besides, Logic was the better player so it is a pointless video to use.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Tripping is a terrible mechanic that should not exist, it should never have been implemented and it's easily the single worst part about this game.



With that said, disabling it on a tournament level just isn't practical, even with the SD card loader. You can't guarantee that every single Wii stays booted, and it will lose the codes if it is rebooted. Furthermore, even if it is as "easy" as loading through the stage builder, you are still going to alienate new players who are going to be very skeptical about a required code entry just to play the game.

I really hate tripping and I wish it didn't exist. There is no reason for it to have even been implemented... but there also just is not a good / consistent way to remove it from the game without some form of hacking-- even if the stage loader hack is "more convenient".



Being from it's birthplace in STL / Missouri, I've heard this argument for Balanced Brawl and how it could "easily replace Brawl because of how you don't need any hacks / anything but an SD card to play it".

Despite the perceived "convenience" of implementing the mod, obviously this suggestion is not rational. Furthermore, every time I have seen it suggested, the new players were scarcely anymore willing to adapt / have their Wii's tampered with for the actual tournament play than they would have been if you said they actually had to hack the thing.

Obviously that's a more drastic modification, but the same principle applies to the suggested tripping removal method.





Again, I really wish that tripping didn't exist, but trying to remove it on a tournament-wide level is likely going to alienate / discourage new players by over-complicating the perceived steps needed to "get into the scene".




In the end, I think it's much more practical for a TO to be given the option to say that the finals / semi-finals must be played with a no tripping mod, as that can be easily monitored / controlled.

It also wouldn't require a ruling in the official ruleset, but rather a recommendation, which is more in-line with how we have always "suggested" game settings that TO's use rather than required them.

 

[Chuee]

I remember once in a wifi friendly I tripped into a fully charged DK punch =/

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I remember once in a wifi friendly I tripped into a fully charged DK punch =/

Can we be friends, cause I'm not fond of our history...

As long as the wifi match was not super cereal then it does really matter.

Edit: @Tura (below) when did that ever happen in a serious tournament?

 

[Turazrok]

I know you are, but interestingly I was hesistant in mentioning it... Maybe everyone ELSE could just adapt?

Seriously, tripping is such a minor thing. Again, you (a better player) aren't consistently losing matches because of it. Removing tripping could potentially make the average player worse than I assume they would be w/ it in cause you are staying aware of less and are prepared to deal w/ less.

Edit: Thank you, Jack

I'd be really mad if money was on the line and I go to pivot grab for a kill throw and I trip and eat MK's dsmash and get gimped. Wouldn't you?

 

[Jack Kieser]

BRAWL IS FULL OF RANDOM. IT ALWAYS WILL BE. STUPID SH*T WILL WIN PEOPLE MATCHES. THIS CANNOT BE HELPED. STOP. B*TCHING.

Jesus Christ. Play the game; if you don't like it, play a different game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'd be really mad if money was on the line and I go to pivot grab for a kill throw and I trip and eat MK's dsmash and get gimped. Wouldn't you?

Given the "rules" of the game, it's still your fault--Despite the fact that you know you have a small chance to trip, you dashed and pivot grabbed, which gave you two chances to trip.

It's unfortunate, but it's something you have to think about.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Given the "rules" of the game, it's still your fault--Despite the fact that you know you have a small chance to trip, you dashed and pivot grabbed, which gave you two chances to trip.

It's unfortunate, but it's something you have to think about.

this is why i prefer simply turning around and grabbing over being flashy and trying to pivot grab.

very easy to do, and pretty trip free

 

[PieDisliker]

I do believe it's actually very possible to get no tripping on every system at the tourney.

With proper managing of setups, the people that are free to remove all of their custom stages from their wii will bring them. I mean... already with such high-level managing and TOing, this shouldn't be a problem. And it doesn't have to be one sd card to change the system either. Multiple co-TOs can bring their sd cards too. It's really that simple. Refuse to remove or move custom stages to an sd card, setup isn't on the list.

And really, I think this whole no tripping thing is a no-brainer. It gives us one less problem to worry about. And I have never felt as bad for an Oli mains when I saw what happened to Logic. This whole arguement is stupid, no tripping should be the best we can get.

I really believe all setups should contain Infinate Replays, Tags in Replays, and No Tripping. It is very possible, and this should be the standard at how our game is run.

 

[Zwarm]

I didn't get out of pools last month because I tripped going for an edgeguard and got punished for it.

Long story short, I support this. =)

 

[gamesuxcard]

It is his fault he lose then because he should have known the risk w/ dashing. Not saying you should never dash but in that scenario I would kept running away.

People should realize that Brawl is a very defensive game. Try using Falco Dekar.

Edit: @Crow, it is true that experimentation is good, but we are better off finding out if Brawl is better with or without MK with a temporary ban. Just a thought for everyone.

If he would have walked over he wouldn't have made it in time and the time out would have still happened. Seems unfair, still. And lul at you promiting even more running away.

 

[T-block]

this is why i prefer simply turning around and grabbing over being flashy and trying to pivot grab.

very easy to do, and pretty trip free

except pivot grabs actually have different properties than normal grabs

In any case, saying "don't dash" is pretty silly, but that doesn't mean "dash without thought". It comes down to basic risk vs. reward. On some level, most of us already weigh the risks of dashing with the rewards and decide that dashing is still worth it because the chance of tripping is small and the rewards for dashing are great. If the chances of tripping were increased to 70%, we would be dashing very rarely.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

**** YOU BAD GATEWAY!

Given the "rules" of the game, it's still your fault--Despite the fact that you know you have a small chance to trip, you dashed and pivot grabbed, which gave you two chances to trip.

It's unfortunate, but it's something you have to think about.

^This.

this is why i prefer simply turning around and grabbing over being flashy and trying to pivot grab.

very easy to do, and pretty trip free

^This too.

Trust me, in the end, you will be a better player if tripping stays.

 

[Chuee]

Can we be friends, cause I'm not fond of our history...

As long as the wifi match was not super cereal then it does really matter.

Edit: @Tura (below) when did that ever happen in a serious tournament?

That could of been the grand finals of MLG Orlando, and I could've lost all that money because Sakurai is a dumb***.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Na I don't think tripping should be banned it's a game mechanic. You don't like the mechanic then don't play the game.

 

[Spaztic Monkey]

This is a very true thread. Characters with poor air games have to use slow approaches in order to reach opponents and this as we all know, sucks.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

It comes down to basic risk vs. reward.

pretty much this what you said here. However in some situations i still prefer using a turn-a round grab versus dashing to pivot-- mostly for situations where someone lands behind me. In some situations, like when i can predict my opponent will chase behind me, i might risk the pivot over normal if i find a opening for the same reasons you already mentioned.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Trust me, in the end, you will be a better player if tripping stays.

Oh wow, if a random mechanic stays, we'll all be better players...I cant believe what Im seeing...

 

[Eddie G]

Na I don't think tripping should be banned it's a game mechanic. You don't like the mechanic then don't play the game.

You know, I would totally agree with you buuuut I don't know; we kind of have the ability to remove undesired parts of the game at our fingertips. So the "just leave it alone" mentality is kind of outdated at this point.

 

[Kewkky]

Trust me, in the end, you will be a better player if tripping stays.

No you won't. What in the world makes you think that? Just because you're looking out for one more danger during a match, doesn't make you a better player. Well, I guess we should start playing out Sudden Deaths to see who gets through all of the dangers and wins, huh? That's sure to make some awesome players! If it's not the random bob-ombs, it's the ledge-camping opponent that will get you!


This is the only thing I faw that I needed to reply to... On topic: I hate the concept of tripping in this game, and I hate tripping during any match. But oh well, I'm already used to expecting the worst.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You know, I would totally agree with you buuuut I don't know; we kind of have the ability to remove undesired parts of the game at our fingertips. So the "just leave it alone" mentality is kind of outdated at this point.

It's not outdated cause not leaving it alone makes this game other than what it really is, duh.

No you won't. What in the world makes you think that? Just because you're looking out for one more danger during a match, doesn't make you a better player. Well, I guess we should start playing out Sudden Deaths to see who gets through all of the dangers and wins, huh? That's sure to make some awesome players! If it's not the random bob-ombs, it's the ledge-camping opponent that will get you!


This is the only thing I faw that I needed to reply to... On topic: I hate the concept of tripping in this game, and I hate tripping during any match. But oh well, I'm already used to expecting the worst.

I believe some people will be better off w/ tripping in because being aware of one more danger SHOULD help you think about other options. Yeah, Diddy's dash is a good component in his game but there's more to him than nanas, dash, dsmash, and upb.

Edit: And you people have failed to read my comment on the last page w/ the Anther vs Boss match. Good night!

 

[Eddie G]

That's the purist mindset I pointed out earlier, which I also added was annoying and potentially a hindrance to progress. Open mind bro, open mind.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You know, I would totally agree with you buuuut I don't know; we kind of have the ability to remove undesired parts of the game at our fingertips. So the "just leave it alone" mentality is kind of outdated at this point.

I'm pretty sure you can hack any game to your hearts content but when it comes down to big tournament play or anything of the sort typically what is required is the game untouched in it's normal state. If you dislike that then don't play brawl.

 

[Eddie G]

Not going to happen.

And I just generally don't like to give up on an idea once I'm convinced to go for it. Even though it is a tall order to shoot for this kind of removal as an established standard, it's not impossible. And who's to say anyone has to remain content with the game as is?

Would it be ethical to the creator's original work? Sure.
Do I care for the creator's original work in this case (tripping)? Heeeell no.

 

[Dekar173]

@Lombardi-

Boss inputted sideB, with the intention of getting the regular sideB (which is to be expected) or the misfire sideB (which is preferred,) his intention was to use an offensive move (sideB) and he got what he wanted.

I fail to see where you can believe tripping and random effect moves such as misfire or judgment are on the same level.



Players use the offensive moves in that category with the INTENTION of doing the random effect (Judgment 1HKO! combo into misfire! Pluck a beam sword and ****! Gordo!) but NO ONE dashes with the intention of tripping.

You can avoid being punished by any of those VERY GOOD moves, but you can't avoid being punished after you trip.

 

[mdmfromdaridge]

What I do not see in any person, is a single logical reason why tripping should be kept, as apposed to why tripping doesn't need to be removed. What i mean by that is as follows.

Person saying something should stay: "This should stay in the game for reasons A, B, and C. If it were eliminated it would be negative for reasons A, B, and C."

Person saying it doesn't need to go: "Yeah but it doesn't happen so often, and whatever it would be hard to do."

There is NO, ZERO, reasons why tripping needs to remain in the game. It causes unnessasary deaths, it ruins momentum, and it is 100% completely uncontrollable by the players. Not to mention the points in the OP about some character needing their dash to compete on any competative level.

The only people I can imagine supporting that tripping stays are either

1. Incredibly lazy. It takes almost zero effort at this point to hack a wii and remove tripping.
2. Ridiculously lucky. I bet some of you people are the ones that get the opportunity to capitalize on trips a lot? Play a lot of marths? How about diddys?
3. Skeptics. Yeah sure, it might be difficult to enforce this, but honestly, how difficult could it be? SD cards are inexpensive as it is, so anybody that has an extra 20 bucks sitting around can easily go grab an SD card and remove tripping from their system. Anyone who can't afford it, can most likely be supplied one from the tournament host.


GET RID OF TRIPPING! It's a tremendously ridiculous addition to the game that brings absolutely nothing to the table but takes away from the players all to frequently.