Why Banning Tripping Should be Considered at Most National/Regional Brawl Tournaments

[Pyronic_Star]

You do not see top players losing their matches still over a gimmick. You do not see them whining to remove it from the game. If they can deal w/ it, so can you. GET F'N BETTER. C:

i beat ally game 1, during game 2 of our set i tripped when i had a free spike... just saying


gimr... maybe you should put up the match of that olimar vs that falco.. that the first two stocks might show an even better point

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Not going to happen.

And I just generally don't like to give up on an idea once I'm convinced to go for it. Even though it is a tall order to shoot for this kind of removal as an established standard, it's not impossible. And who's to say anyone has to remain content with the game as is?

Would it be ethical to the creator's original work? Sure.
Do I care for the creator's original work in this case (tripping)? Heeeell no.

I don't think ethics has anything to do with it. The thing is let's say you remove tripping it's not going to stop there. The hack for tripping has been around for how long? To ask for a major tournament do it is ridiculous. You maybe able to pull it off at your local tournies though.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

Then why aren't people wanting this changed?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Egx0bgALiA (ENDING)

It's random, it's anti-competitive, and it's hindering to the worst player, just like tripping.

Edit: @KBizzle, that is the most hilarious example I have ever seen. Seriously, he could have rolled, sheild, or even jump > air dodge. Besides, Logic was the better player so it is a pointless video to use.

that was a really good video... he couldn't have rolled, he was hit before he could do anything, whose to say he wasn't going to pivot f-smash me which would have beat every option i had in that position

Tripping doesn't affect everyone equally on a fundamental level, even; Ice Climbers have twice as much of a chance to trip, because every dash input makes both Ice Climbers dash (with the exception of some desynching stuff, but, eh).

That being said, Logic does the entirety of his movement via foxtrotting, it seems--It's no wonder he finds himself tripping often.

some characters fastest movement is dashing -.- sorry we all can't mindgame people with air momentum


its not fair for a character such as falco, peach, mk, and snake to have an advantage simply because running is not a major part of their gameplay, while olimar, diddy's, or fox are hindered for it falco's walk is as fast as his run speed, thus he never has a reason to run. olimar's run and horizontal air movement are slow... is it really fair to allow a random occurrence, that was placed in the game specifically to deter competitive play, affect certain characters only?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

its not fair for a character such as falco, peach, mk, and snake to have an advantage simply because running is not a major part of their gameplay, while olimar, diddy's, or fox are hindered for it falco's walk is as fast as his run speed, thus he never has a reason to run. olimar's run and horizontal air movement are slow... is it really fair to allow a random occurrence, that was placed in the game specifically to deter competitive play, affect certain characters only?

I'm pretty sure you factored all of these things in when selecting which character you would main. Why ***** about it now? All characters are different all have their flaws pros and cons. Basically your options are....pick up a new character who doesn't fit with the ones you have labeled or quit the game or continue to play as you have been doing. What next you're going to want buffs for your character? To improve his air speed and recoverY? There isn't a need to tweak the mechanics of the game.

 

[Dekar173]

I dont understand how you advocate the removal of infinites in MLG gameplay but you dont want to get rid of, you know, the random element of tripping!

It doesn't make sense.

 

[Timic83]

do we have a hack yet that just allows you to put in the sd card, smash stack and remove tripping on that wii? and if so, do we have a way of seeing that tripping is turned off, like a logo next the to time that says "no trip" or something? does this work on pal?

if so there is no reason not to turn tripping off. b+ and b- are a different can of beans.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[deepseadiva]

I enjoy the massive amounts of positive support this thread has gotten.

What's something else everyone hates? I suggest we ban it!

*Meno is then loved by everyone*

 

[Spelt]

lol. people are arguing this like meta knight...
that's worse than the brawl vs street fighter crap.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I dont understand how you advocate the removal of infinites in MLG gameplay but you dont want to get rid of, you know, the random element of tripping!

It doesn't make sense.

what does one have to do with the other ?

 

[Mota]

Lets say MLG removed random tripping without telling the participants, would anyone even notice?

I agree with the removal of tripping, there is no need for it. :sakurai:

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Bizkit047]

Tripping is pretty lame, but I can't see it being banned as a standard. I always have no tripping on my Wii at tourneys, I've never heard anyone really complain about it. I would think only bad players that want to try to get luck wins on better opponents would be pro-tripping lmao. Either way, I don't think this will catch on due to it being a hack. Even if it's simplistic to enable on Brawl just from an SD card, it's still a hack. Unfortunately, we're stuck with tripping in Brawl. There's always the option of playing silly Brawl mods that make the game "balanced" xd.

On a related note, does anyone else always seem to trip going for a edgehog? I swear that happens to me 9/10 times or something, it's enraging to know my opponent got a free recovery instead of losing their stock lulz. Either way though, I don't mind playing on Wii's with tripping, but if I had the choice I'd definitely choose the no tripping Wii. People who think players never lose to tripping are very wrong, and it happens more than you would think.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The main argument for this is simply because people hate hax. The other piece to back it up for what people want is to say that it is foreign to gameplay by having it in.

However, why has not anyone bothered to complain about hax regarding Peach, DDD and Olimar. They all have some form of haxed move that can greatly affect game play. DDD has waddle dees/doos along with the ability to access gordo which moves faster than waddle dees/doos and can kill. How does anyone prepare for that? The fact is that they do not.

Olimar has chance with his pikmin pluck. A match could vary greatly depending upon the pikmin he picks up due to each pikmin having different attributes and functions. This is something that should be elimnated from brawl if people are going with the notion hax shouldn't be involved in the game.

Then you have peach who can get hax by picking up stitches, bom-ombs, swords and Mr. Saturn. All of these are chance pickings and can greatly affect the match or stock. So Peach should be included in this idea as well if people are backing the idea that there should be no luck in the game.

Other stages use luck as well. Take a look at FO or YI. The sides can pop out at random times and give some characters a much needed recovery. This is luck too.

All I am trying to point out is that if you someone is goint to support no hax, then you should be backing the choice to have all these other things I mentioned be altered.

 

[Red Arremer]

Tripping is not nearly as much of a problem as it is made to be.

I think that equipping Wiis with hacks is the most problematic thing. Not because it's hard to do, but because of 4 main reasons:
1.) Not everyone wants hacks on their Wii
I know I don't, and I'm a TO. While I appreciate people taking their hacked Wiis for Infinite Replay with them, I usually only tolerate graphical hacks.

2.) Noone guarantees that this hacked version doesn't have other gameplay changes
Very important. Maybe someone added some other gameplay changes to these hacks, like MK doing less damage or something. This would make investigating every SD card that is brought along with hacks necessary, unless the TO brings it.

3.) Gameplay changes should NOT be allowed
Brawl was made with Tripping, so it's part of the game. If you don't like that, play something else. If you change the game to not include tripping, then why stop there? Ganondorf's aerials should autocancel, and this was a programming error - why don't we fix that? Snake's hitboxes are too big for his hurtbox - why don't fix that either? Meta Knight's laser priority sword is ridiculous, why don't we fix that as well? WarioWare could be a great stage if we only used its neutral form without the boon-giving transformations - why don't fix that too?

4.) Hacking the game is actually illegal
Nintendo made this clear through their tries of cutting off homebrew channels and whatnot with their updates. Using hacks officially will get TOs in trouble. You players, you can talk a lot and think what you want, cause you don't have the responsibilities of a host. But the TOs can have a lot of trouble if a ruleset including (illegal) hacks is used, starting with them getting kicked out of their location, etc.

As you can see, the biggest problem is the consequences that could and/or will be made out of using hacks officially.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm pretty sure you can hack any game to your hearts content but when it comes down to big tournament play or anything of the sort typically what is required is the game untouched in it's normal state. If you dislike that then don't play brawl.

This is silly. Again, we have things like items off, stages off, etc... Why not "tripping off", which should've been an in-game option anyways?

do we have a hack yet that just allows you to put in the sd card, smash stack and remove tripping on that wii? and if so, do we have a way of seeing that tripping is turned off, like a logo next the to time that says "no trip" or something? does this work on pal?

if so there is no reason not to turn tripping off. b+ and b- are a different can of beans.

Yes. Sadly, there is no PAL version.

Tripping is not nearly as much of a problem as it is made to be.

I think that equipping Wiis with hacks is the most problematic thing. Not because it's hard to do, but because of 4 main reasons:
1.) Not everyone wants hacks on their Wii
I know I don't, and I'm a TO. While I appreciate people taking their hacked Wiis for Infinite Replay with them, I usually only tolerate graphical hacks.

Stack smash. You don't need to softmod your Wii for brawl hacks any more.

2.) Noone guarantees that this hacked version doesn't have other gameplay changes
Very important. Maybe someone added some other gameplay changes to these hacks, like MK doing less damage or something. This would make investigating every SD card that is brought along with hacks necessary, unless the TO brings it.

Well the solution is pretty simple-either the TO brings a lot of SD cards or anyone who brings an SD card gets it checked by the TO at the entrance or so.

3.) Gameplay changes should NOT be allowed
Brawl was made with Tripping, so it's part of the game. If you don't like that, play something else. If you change the game to not include tripping, then why stop there? Ganondorf's aerials should autocancel, and this was a programming error - why don't we fix that? Snake's hitboxes are too big for his hurtbox - why don't fix that either? Meta Knight's laser priority sword is ridiculous, why don't we fix that as well? WarioWare could be a great stage if we only used its neutral form without the boon-giving transformations - why don't fix that too?

Because there is literally no redeeming value to including tripping in the game. This is a difference that nobody seems to get. Ganon's aerials don't autocancel? Whoops. So ganon has a nerf. This helps anyone who doesn't play ganon. Snake's hitboxes are too big? Helps snake. Et cetera. And as for stage hacks, there's a whole new learning curve on those.

4.) Hacking the game is actually illegal
Nintendo made this clear through their tries of cutting off homebrew channels and whatnot with their updates. Using hacks officially will get TOs in trouble. You players, you can talk a lot and think what you want, cause you don't have the responsibilities of a host. But the TOs can have a lot of trouble if a ruleset including (illegal) hacks is used, starting with them getting kicked out of their location, etc.

As you can see, the biggest problem is the consequences that could and/or will be made out of using hacks officially.

All right... this is a problem. Friggin' nintendo.

 

[Kitamerby]

There is no redeeming value to allow Ganondorf to have such a blatant coding error that is so easily fixed.

 

[Conti]

Ok lombardi makes me lol... so let's not dash anymore guyz let's walk and jump around the stage all game? Right?
@joel
Anyways I know this would take a good amount of communication between a T.O. and people but what if he had a laptop with like an official hacked codeset for all tournaments... like someone posted earlier this could fix some of the minor bugs with other char's and it wud reduce the chance of someone using a cheating codeset [such as mk less damage]... (and have a folder for every1's codeset's temporarily until the tournament is over in case they have some codes they want to keep)...

Like the tournament codeset would include
-SD Replacement [txtures n ect]
-No tripping
-infinite replays
-Auto set with tournaments ruleset [3stock 7-8mins, team attack ect.]
-whatever else....

THIS COULD WORK....
Edit: So people are scared that its illegal... then remove the SD txture hack code and just use the other codes just incase u feel safer in that sense... like mlg in example I don't think would be fond of texture hacks... so if you load the codes thru the way people mentioned with the glitch fix's and no tripping and ect... I think it wud workout and noone would notice or complain (except GL) haha

 

[Crow!]

2.) Noone guarantees that this hacked version doesn't have other gameplay changes

...If you change the game to not include tripping, then why stop there? ...

4.) Hacking the game is actually illegal

Quoting for emphasis. IIRC, the Wii has actually gone through two EULAs... I'm not sure when the second one became the norm, but if you got your Wii after some date, you are legally bound not to run any unauthorized software (such as that placed in the background to modify Brawl).

Those willing to deal with the above issues can go ahead and experiment with a "no tripping" rule. But a universal standard to play that way is not going to happen because of issues like the above.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Ok.

For all of you people that have lost matches because you suck of tripping, perhaps you can alter your playstyles to dashing less and using the other options you are given. And if you play this game to win more than anything then you shouldn't even be using Oli or Diddy. Go .

I'm serious 'cause you guys want the easy way out of things when that is exactly what can make you a worst player.

 

[Judo777]

Sheik is another character that is heavily reliant on dashing. Her air speed is pretty bad compared to most of the cast while her ground speed is i think 4th best in the game. Sheik is very light and has trouble killing so You have to make the most of her mobility. I know that i happen to trip a TON in tourney matches. I have a vid on youtube of me tripping 5 times in 1 game it was ridiculous. Idk whether i think it should be banned or not but many characters are far more effected than others.

Ironically enough id just like to point out that most of the top tier characters have special features that make them not as effected by tripping. As God is my Rock said MK, Snake, Falco and Wario dont have to dash as much while playing so they arent as effected.

The other 3 character while needing to dash alot have an interesting buffer to the issue.

Diddy kong while needing to dash alot often has bananas on the ground allowing him a safe direction to roll without being punished or even if he doesnt roll the banans can often prevent ur opponent from punishing u just by being in the way.

IC's while having a need to run alot to get grabs and desynch and stuff and also are twice as affected because there are 2 they still have a sort of buffer to the problem. Number 1 there are 2 IC's so if 1 trips the other 1 can cover the other while they are vulnerable. Ie popo trips have nana throw out a blizzard while popos standing up. Nana trips charge an fsmash while nana is standing up. you can even use that to desynch. Also they get a huge reward for the opponent tripping.

Marth is probably the most effected but he does also have at least a tiny advantage over alot of others. He is very good at keeping you at a decent range from him because of his sword. because of this u have less time to punish his trips simply because u are further away.

 

[Kitamerby]

Marth's WALK is faster than more than half of the cast's full speed dashes. He doesn't need to run. <<

 

[Conti]

Ok.

For all of you people that have lost matches because you suck of tripping, perhaps you can alter your playstyles to dashing less and using the other options you are given. And if you play this game to win more than anything then you shouldn't even be using Oli or Diddy. Go .

I'm serious 'cause you guys want the easy way out of things when that is exactly what can make you a worst player.

Lol dude u are probably the most Biased and ignorant guy I've seen on smashboards... like seriously... your opinions have no reason... you attempt to put others down to show ur "cool" or something... and your telling people to quit top tier characters because if they don't like tripping then they shouldn't play as them? Like I bet if we could run a poll right now there will be AT LEAST 90% of people against tripping... it has more comedown to the actual action of making the 1st step to do something about it... just because it was put in the game doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken out... items r in the game... smashball was added.... do u see us playn with that.... it takes away the competetive edge to this game... sometimes the only option you have to punish your opponent from say a laggy fsmash is a running grab/attack... now if we r gunna play your way then I guess we have to stop and change our whole playstyle due to the small chance of tripping and in those situations instead of running up and punishing we r going to let the opprotunity go away because this game isn't about reading and punishing and some characters aren't ground based or anything....

Lots of sarcasm... seriously tho... you are being ignorant... I see why you want tripping in this game but it just isn't balanced.... and if there is something unbalanced that isn't mk that we can remove.... we should do it... (I'm not pro-ban or anti-ban... mk is just whatever)

 

[solecalibur]

The meta game would change quite a bit at larger scale tounrys as some things like dash dancing is some what viable now, Id love to get rid of tripping but the fact its mainly illegal to do this means MLG wouldn't support it but Im sure we could have an experiment some time >.>

 

[Kitamerby]

Thenagain, it's not like Nintendo ever liked us making tournaments out of their party game cash cow from the start, so meh, it may not be THAT bad...

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Lol dude u are probably the most Biased and ignorant guy I've seen on smashboards... like seriously... your opinions have no reason... you attempt to put others down to show ur "cool" or something... and your telling people to quit top tier characters because if they don't like tripping then they shouldn't play as them? Like I bet if we could run a poll right now there will be AT LEAST 90% of people against tripping... it has more comedown to the actual action of making the 1st step to do something about it... just because it was put in the game doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken out... items r in the game... smashball was added.... do u see us playn with that.... it takes away the competetive edge to this game... sometimes the only option you have to punish your opponent from say a laggy fsmash is a running grab/attack... now if we r gunna play your way then I guess we have to stop and change our whole playstyle due to the small chance of tripping and in those situations instead of running up and punishing we r going to let the opprotunity go away because this game isn't about reading and punishing and some characters aren't ground based or anything....

Lots of sarcasm... seriously tho... you are being ignorant... I see why you want tripping in this game but it just isn't balanced.... and if there is something unbalanced that isn't mk that we can remove.... we should do it... (I'm not pro-ban or anti-ban... mk is just whatever)

What made you think I was trying to act cool?

I'm sure that 90% of the community would want tripping gone, but then 70% of those people are the same people that complain about Brawl nonstop when they should just quit or get better. Common sense would tell you that items and smashball offer a MUCH greater luck factor and a MUCH greater advantage to some characters than others.

Maybe you should punish better like waiting for the END LAG and not the startup lag of certain moves. Maybe you don't need to punish anyway if you are ahead, EVADE them until you could punish w/o dashing. Have you ever though about this? You know the risks, but you fail to actually stay aware of them.

 

[The_Altrox]

No matter how you argue it, removing tripping (outside of trip moves like bananas and stuff) is just a minor improvement that can be made easily. altercations to charcaters is a whole 'nother level of hacking. Besides TRIPPING IS A CONSPIRACY

Oh Sakurai...

 

[HelpR]

.... lol homebrew is illegal?

it may void your warranty if you get caught with it (which IS in fact, in the most recent EULAs) but no, it's not illegal, at least gecko isnt illegal.

Your Wii Console and the Wii Network Service are not designed for use with unauthorized software, services, or devices or non-licensed accessories, and you may not use any of these with your Wii Console or the Wii Network Service. Such use may be illegal, voids any warranty, and is a breach of this agreement.

the EULA suggests that the software may be illegal. and guess what, some is, particularly backup loader and wad manager can be used illegally, but gecko does NOT Fall under this category.

Homebrew is NOT illegal, the EULA gives nintendo the right to delete it from your wii, and even allows them to brick your wii, but there's a reason they havent done that yet, and that's because of the massive ****storm they'd be asking for if they did brick wiis for having homebrew on them.

homebrew channel is basically a hammer, and you can do alot of things with it, some illegal, some perfectly legal. the only time nintendo ever attacks homebrew is when a new update is made, and often, the hackers in the world have it cracked within a week. you can play brawl +, Bbrawl, and Brawl with codes on perfectly fine online, and no one has been banned due to it. there are even codes that let you play as giga bowser default on wifi, and it works, and no one has been banned over it

 

[AlphaZealot]

Logic Drove all of the way from Maryland to Illinois to go to this tournament. He made it to losers semi-finals and basically lost the set because of a trip. He had just split Nana from Popo and was making a come back when...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM5INAx5daY#t=3m55s

In this video Logic trips...but Lain trips a bunch in the whole match.

You make a common fallacy here that is often made in other sports as well. For example, in basketball, you will see people become belligerent at a bad call/non-call late in a close game with 1 minute left. However, the reality is a non-call/bad call has the same statistical effect on the outcome of the game if it happens in the first minute or 5 minutes. The human pyche just likes to give more weight to an event happening near the close of a game then the beginning, even if both events have the same impact. Lain's IC's tripped far more then Logic did, if anything Logic BENEFITED more from tripping then Lain did. You just don't notice this because of when the tripping happened.

I've never won or lost a match because of tripping.

And you can never blame an entire set loss on a single trip.

 

[Kitamerby]

You can if you're Lucario.

 

[HelpR]

alpha: you're right, but what you have to remember about smash is that brawl is less like basketball and more like soccer.

a bad call in soccer easily makes an entire game, but it can have significantly less of an impact depending on when it happened, same for brawl.

If you trip at 30%, ok fine, you got punished for like 20%, but if you trip at 125%? bye bye stock.

Most people dislike tripping because it causes things like this to happen, you can play as safely as possible, but once you trip all bets are off, not to mention the fact that it can cut a stock short if you manage to trip when it would hurt you most

in basketball, one bad call is a drop in the bucket, as the worst that could come around is 2 or 3 points for the one who the bad call was in favor of, in brawl, losing a stock early because of a trip means any amount of time up to a 3rd of the match can be cut off because you tripped.

Granted, this is really a worst case situation deal, but honestly, if two players trip the same amount of times, I'd be willing to bet you that the times that the players trip has a deep impact on the result, and unless one of the players suffers an infinite from his/her opponent, it should not have as deep an impact as later on in a stock

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

alpha: you're right, but what you have to remember about smash is that brawl is less like basketball and more like soccer.

a bad call in soccer easily makes an entire game, but it can have significantly less of an impact depending on when it happened, same for brawl.

If you trip at 30%, ok fine, you got punished for like 20%, but if you trip at 125%? bye bye stock.

Most people dislike tripping because it causes things like this to happen, you can play as safely as possible, but once you trip all bets are off, not to mention the fact that it can cut a stock short if you manage to trip when it would hurt you most

in basketball, one bad call is a drop in the bucket, as the worst that could come around is 2 or 3 points for the one who the bad call was in favor of, in brawl, losing a stock early because of a trip means any amount of time up to a 3rd of the match can be cut off because you tripped.

Granted, this is really a worst case situation deal, but honestly, if two players trip the same amount of times, I'd be willing to bet you that the times that the players trip has a deep impact on the result, and unless one of the players suffers an infinite from his/her opponent, it should not have as deep an impact as later on in a stock

Thank you, AZ.

HelpR, I'm gonna just put it out here that you SHOULD know better than to dash a lot at over 90 damage. You SHOULD know the risks, and if you don't, then you aren't the better player and do not deserve to win.

 

[Eddie G]

Hmm...what if you trip at 0% and get grabbed by the ICs because of it? I can only run away in the air for so long before I eventually have to bypass their sharking and deal some damage to make any progress. That's the only time my Peach will touch the ground in the match other than for brief moments far away to restore her jumps/float. If I end up getting grabbed by them and their ****ty grab range, I'd rather have it be by their own skill/mindgame/grab setup than by a random granted momentary advantage.

Despite when the trips occur in a match and how much they actually affect the match and how the players'/spectators' psyche perceives everything, the fact remains that trips still produce random, undesired, and unnecessarily game changing effects that take away control from one or sometimes both players in a given situation. Where is the skill in that? How does that promote any sort of competition?

I Know the steep possibility of no tripping actually being standardized on a wide scale, but that is the only possible argument I see that makes sense on why it wouldn't be done. Everything else is either a conservative or purist argument, hesitant and/or afraid of change. Only, in this case...it is a slight tweak that hurts no one and helps everyone who competes in the game. What exactly is the problem with that?

 

[Chuee]

Ok Gunmaster, we should never run in this game at all because we have a chance of tripping.

 

[Allied]

Everyones bad

I'm the best

Tripping rules obviously

 

[GimR]

Better players are smarter.

They know better. They know the risks of things. They never force themselves into a position where they HAVE to dash, giving a chance of tripping. I even use Sonic a lot and I don't get screwed into tripping unless it was some random decision when I wasn't even in a tournament match.

I have a question for you, if tripping could happen every time you walked and dashed would you be for it being banned? OR would you just say, "it's your own fault you need to stay in the air more"(even if your characters aerial momentum sucks). Dashing is an important form of movement in Brawl. It's just plain stupid to say that you need to put yourself in situations where you don't need to dash. The best characters in the game are the only ones who don't really need to dash. That's why you don't see top players losing off of a trip.

My 2 cents.

Tripping really does happen very rarely. The effects it has on a game are extremely low. Yes, some random moments come out of it, but often times they are minimal. Heck, sometimes you can even be saved when in a CG. People would love it when Falco trips when he is CGing you.

Logic Drove all of the way from Maryland to Illinois to go to this tournament. He made it to losers semi-finals and basically lost the set because of a trip. He had just split Nana from Popo and was making a come back when...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM5INAx5daY#t=3m55s


Also:

If you were tricked into getting grabbed or put into a position where you had to get grabbed that's because of your own lack of skill or because your opponent has skill. he or she shouldn't be punished by random chance when they were smart enough to pull off the grab on you in the first place


Second, the likely hood of getting grabbed after a trip is higher then your opponent tripping while chain grabbing you.

.For example, let's just say I'm an IceClimbers player and I grab you. I only need to do the chain grab 6 to 10 times before you're in killing range. the likely hood of me tripping during that time frame is minimal.

.You, on the other hand are a marth player and your running around and spacing near the edge and you trip. BECAUSE of your lack of invincibility frames after a trip, I, the Iceclimbers player, have about a 75% change of reading you and grabbing you out of the trip.

So in essence your own argument destroys itself because tripping makes the Ice Climbers(+DeDeDE and Falco) more likely to get the grab in the first place, resulting in more chain grabbing for him or her. Trust me, I'm an ice climbers player. I don't know how many times I've gotten a grab off of someone's trip, but it's been a lot. I won a money match earlier this week because of that. At the same time, I don't think my Nana tripped once during any of the chain grabs I pulled off on my opponent.

If you are going to such lengths to ban a chance moment, then you might as well ban Peach's ability to get bom-ombs, swords or saturns. Or even DDD's ability to get gordos. Peach getting a bom-omb that can kill at 60% against anyone is way more hax than a trip that requires someone to be close enough to take advantage of it to it's fullest ability.

This is a bad argument. First, all of these moves have start up lag so you can see it coming and prepare for the random misfire, nine, gordo, or bo-bomb

second they don't put your character in an indefensible state where you could be hurt.

It would make more sense if you'd say, "what if every time you dashed there was a 1/100 chance that you misfire, 9, or pulled a bo-bomb depending on your character." Of course you would be against this because it is out of a dash and makes no sense for a character to shoot out a random move during a dash. I feel the same way that it makes no sense for you to randomly be put in an indefinsible state out of a dash

Guys, no one should have replied to that OP; it's full of nothing but strawman arguments that I've NEVER seen used in an actual tripping debate.

A straw man argument is an argument that doesn't directly address the original argument in any way shape or form. How do any of my counter arguments not address the original arguments at all?

The only thing in that OP that wasn't a blatant attempt to set up a sh*tty argument for the sole purpose of knocking it down was the "hacking feasibility" argument, which is a legitimate argument because then we have the risk of having codes be active that are unrelated to tripping (like someone loading a 1% damage buff to Falcon code that would be hard to track, giving people advantages).

This has been gone over a thousand times... hacking Wiis is not technically legal (even though it should be) and will never be a tournament standard.

If the tourney host provides all of the SD cards then there is no chance that small codes like that will be added to any of the wiis.

Tripping doesn't affect everyone equally on a fundamental level, even; Ice Climbers have twice as much of a chance to trip, because every dash input makes both Ice Climbers dash (with the exception of some desynching stuff, but, eh).

That being said, Logic does the entirety of his movement via foxtrotting, it seems--It's no wonder he finds himself tripping often.

But as an Olimar he NEEDS to fox trot a lot in order to play and space his best, He NEEDS to pivot grab a lot, He NEEDS to dash in Up smash a lot, and he NEEDS to dash in and up-air a lot in order to win matches. IF he stops dashing that makes his character unusable at a high level of play.

I actually trip a LOT, especially when I'm about to edgeguard someone (I trip right at the edge lol). But I still don't think it should be removed

The basic argument for removing tripping is that (from the OP) "We as players have discovered what's the most balanced way to play this game despite what the developers wanted.

I had many other arguments also

You can't know what the developers were thinking either. Maybe they created all of Brawl and then were like "let's add tripping on top of everything else." Or maybe the whole game and character design was based around tripping. Or maybe they deemed Sonic too broken or wanted the game to focus more on walking or they wanted to assign a certain risk to pivot grabs since they're generally unpunishable.

Sakurai said he did not want this game to be played competitively; it was a party game. We can assume from that that tripping was put in because he didn't care about how it would affect the Competitive gamers because he really only cared about casual ones.

As an analogy, consider phantom hits in Melee. I'm pretty sure it was thought at one point earlier in Melee's life that phantom hits were completely random and a bug in the game. People thought they knew how this thing worked and thought they they knew that it was a programming bug unintended by the developers and not part of the "true game." However, people later realized that they were specifically programmed into the game to happen when you graze your opponent's hurtbox with a hitbox. If there had hypothetically been a hack that disabled them that became widespread earlier in Melee's life then I think everyone can agree today that that would have been a bad idea.

Brawl has had hackers from the get go. We have delved into the game and know exactly how tripping works, thus we were able to make the no tripping code. Melee didn't have hackers thus it took them a long time to figure out exactly how phantom hitting works. It's a bad analogy

There's no such thing as better players or worse players, just winners and losers

what? The winners are usually better

In this video Logic trips...but Lain trips a bunch in the whole match.

You make a common fallacy here that is often made in other sports as well. For example, in basketball, you will see people become belligerent at a bad call/non-call late in a close game with 1 minute left. However, the reality is a non-call/bad call has the same statistical effect on the outcome of the game if it happens in the first minute or 5 minutes. The human pyche just likes to give more weight to an event happening near the close of a game then the beginning, even if both events have the same impact. Lain's IC's tripped far more then Logic did, if anything Logic BENEFITED more from tripping then Lain did. You just don't notice this because of when the tripping happened.

I've never won or lost a match because of tripping.

And you can never blame an entire set loss on a single trip.

yeah but logic did lose a match because of the tripping which might've lost him the set. Just because you haven't lost a match because of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Just because one person trips more during a match doesn't mean that the other player benefits more from it.

Lain playsice climbers. The likely hood of both ice climbers tripping at the same time is slim to none. Thus he can protect him self when he trips.

Logic plays Olimar, Olimar has a super slow roll so after he trips he is even more vulnerable. Also, he doesn't have another character protect him when he trips.

The most Logic can do when his opponent trips is U-smash or do a little combo. Lain can Zero to death Logic if he grabs him out of a trip.

So an Ice climbers tripping once isn't as dangerous as an Olimar player tripping once (in that match up)


I also agree that when some people trip and die from it they get angry and play worse. Don't you think they have the right to get angry though? I mean they just lost a stock due to no fault of their own.

 

[Masmasher@]

Why the **** is this even debatable.
wow... what the **** does being a better player have to do with tripping.
stupidest **** ive ever heard.
thats the equivalent to saying im better at batting. that has no effect on whether a bird is gonna take a **** on you during the game.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Hmm...what if you trip at 0% and get grabbed by the ICs because of it? I can only run away in the air for so long before I eventually have to bypass their sharking and deal some damage to make any progress. That's the only time my Peach will touch the ground in the match other than for brief moments far away to restore her jumps/float. If I end up getting grabbed by them and their ****ty grab range, I'd rather have it be by their own skill/mindgame/grab setup than by a random granted momentary advantage.

Despite when the trips occur in a match and how much they actually affect the match and how the players'/spectators' psyche perceives everything, the fact remains that trips still produce random, undesired, and unnecessarily game changing effects that take away control from one or sometimes both players in a given situation. Where is the skill in that? How does that promote any sort of competition?

I Know the steep possibility of no tripping actually being standardized on a wide scale, but that is the only possible argument I see that makes sense on why it wouldn't be done. Everything else is either a conservative or purist argument, hesitant and/or afraid of change. Only, in this case...it is a slight tweak that hurts no one and helps everyone who competes in the game. What exactly is the problem with that?

And yet I have answered this but you aren't actually reading my posts.

@GIMR, Diddy, a characrer used by many top players, says hi. Get up to date w/ the metagame cause I won't listen to you until then.

You know, if Oli honestly NEEDS to take risks the whole game then maybe he isn't that good of a character, period. C:

 

[Eddie G]

And yet I have answered this but you aren't actually reading my posts.

@GIMR, Diddy, a characrer used by many top players, says hi. Get up to date w/ the metagame cause I won't listen to you until then.

You know, if Oli honestly NEEDS to take risks the whole game then maybe he isn't that good of a character, period. C:

I'm sorry, but you're a fool if you consider players to be bad just because they're sick of putting up with a ******** risk that comes with a staple part of anyone's general game. It's...asinine to have to consider it as a legitimate threat to one's momentum/stock, especially in what can potentially be an important match/set. I ask you, how does being wary of a silly mechanic like this factor into player skill? All it does is set a ridiculous limitation on players, and not only to those who play characters that dash a lot, but everyone. Even characters that don't dash a lot can potentially find themselves in a tight spot if they trip and the opponent can capitalize on an advantage that they themselves did not force on account of their own skill. I realize that the opponent's skill does not always create advantages either since the other player can still make mistakes and land themselves in trouble; but that's just it...the mistake is cause by their own bad judgement/incorrect button input/etc! and not supplied by an obviously trollish game mechanic.

Sorry dude...but just because tripping came with the game, it doesn't mean that it's mandatory to accept it. And please stop with this subject of "X is a better player than y" with regards to acknowledgment of tripping in a match. It is the stupidest possible relation you can make between two things associated with this game.

 

[Masmasher@]

Again...cause the fact that this is debated is so incredibly stupid.

Why the **** is this even debatable.
wow... what the **** does being a better player have to do with tripping.
stupidest **** ive ever heard.
thats the equivalent to saying im better at batting. that has no effect on whether a bird is gonna take a **** on you during the game.