This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

[-Ran]

He who tilts first loses.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Zelda boards started talking Snake as a teammate. If you feel like it, please share your thoughts and knowledge with us, we´d really appreciate it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232505

 

[Barbeque]

Snake vs. Falco a 50/50 match? Thats ridiculous. Falco can optimal CG to dair spike to kill snake no problems at all. He practically outcamps you seeing as how he has lazers+ can just shine your grenades. He can deflect your mortars, he can out-space you with shine+other moves... I say ATLEAST 45-55 in falcos favour.

Also, i didn't realise there were so many characters that had an advantage on Snake O_O

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Snake can blow himself up with Nades and C4 to a percentage where Falco can't CG Snake.

 

[Ken Neth]

Snake vs. Falco a 50/50 match? Thats ridiculous. Falco can optimal CG to dair spike to kill snake no problems at all. He practically outcamps you seeing as how he has lazers+ can just shine your grenades. He can deflect your mortars, he can out-space you with shine+other moves... I say ATLEAST 45-55 in falcos favour.

Also, i didn't realise there were so many characters that had an advantage on Snake O_O

Don't get grabbed at low percents. camp to the max till you're above 40% and keep grenades by your feet just in case you do get grabbed. And if he does CG you to spike just c4 recover away from the edge and cypher high above him. he should never kill you from a chain grab if you know what you're doing.

just duck and he can't camp. you can crawl under his lasers.

crawling also goes under his reflector, so no problem there either.

Problems solved.

And then falco has the porblem of actually killing snake. His kill moves are really easy to see coming and to avoid. You should be living to ridiculous percents if your DI is good and you learn to avoid his kill moves.

this is slightly in Snake's favor.

 

[Barbeque]

If you crouch his lazers falco can just SHDL as he approaches you it pressures you into staying grounded(you would probably still get punished if you tried getting up), so once he gets to you he can easily upsmash/mindgame grab you. No falco is stupid enough to use the reflect after approaching you with SHDLs

IIRC a light dair knocks snake off his cypher and falcos can repeatedly do that if they are fast enough and can predict you, and overall after getting dair spiked after a chaingrab your way to easily predicted since snakes up+b is so slow and sucky. C4 won't help much either unless your at super high precents to knock you far above falco, but also makes you much closer to death.

When I play falco I pretty much have to platform camp non stop with nades and thats my only option, which only works depending on the stage. In my opinion, there isn't a more annoying matchup for snake, but that's just me.

 

[SuSa]

Falco has one of the most predictable recoveries in the game, and one is almost never used because it's easy to stage spike. Just as he can gimp us, we can gimp him.

Crouching stops his lasers, and if needed you can powershield. You can stay at the length of his IAP away, so you can powershield > ftilt punish the (small) end lag.

Every now and then grenades can be helpful, and if the Falco think's he can outcamp you - he's wrong.

Falco CAN hit a crouched snake (go watch RAIN vs 9B pl0x) but that leaves him open for Snake to bridge the gap between them. However it can force us to approach if done correctly.

Falco has real big issues killing Snake. I don't care what upsmash/mindgame stuff you think you have, you don't really have it. If you can mindgame upsmash us. We can mindgame fsmash you. (Fsmash on platform = funny hitbox. People think they are safe when they aren't....) So assuming you know the matchup at all, you shouldn't be doing until rediculous percents. (Talking 170-200% with good DI and knowing the matchup. Your death generally happens second and you die from a fresh bair or a really well spaced fsmash)

The chaingrab is relatively easy to avoid if you simply camp until safer %'s. There is less risk that way, just don't play stupid.

I used to say 55:45 Falco, then slowly went to 50:50 even. Now I'm leaning ever more towards 55:45 Snake as time goes on and I learn the matchup.

At low levels of play:

Falco has advantage

Medium levels:

Falco has a slight advantage

Higher levels:

It goes even

Pro levels:

I feel Snake has the advantage.


(You should face a good Olimar if you think Falco is an annoying matchup)

I refuse to play Olimar's with Snake after a recent incident. Only refreshened my mind of why I hate that matchup. I will use Snake against Falco's however.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Issues with an Olimar? I always thought the match was fairly do able. Annoying, but do able.

 

[IxxI]

..... abit rusty is Ken Neth!?

 

[IxxI]

With Olimar.

Camp.
Let him approach and do his laggy attacks.
Punish.
Gimp.
Win.
Sexy.

 

[SuSa]

Don't double post, edit instead.

Abit_Rusty is Ken Neth because Abit isn't around to update. (and for about a month I was abit_rusty as well)

but shh

 

[Ken Neth]

Should we rediscuss the olimar matchup then?

I know I said we'd do ZSS a couple weeks ago, but I think it should be what is more in demand. We'll see who gets more votes by late tonight, then I'll update.

 

[Nic64]

I'm going with the one I hate most

the little spaceman *******

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

We could try to do 2 pages at once. ZSS and Rediscussion on Olimar.

I know that requires a lot of effort from people, but we are behind anyway. Staying back another week just to rediscuss something doesn't seem very productive. Having both would be productive (if people will post in them).

 

[Ken Neth]

I have little experience in both of the match-ups so I can't really promise much on my end. But I would be more than happy to get both running at once if people are capable of getting them both done.

 

[SuSa]

Do so, I sorta know the Zamus matchup.

I've already given all my opinions on the Olimar matchup and can copy-pasta them here.

 

[nevershootme]

I have battle experience vs zss and olimar (there was some discussion in another thread) and i'll provide a million video proofs.

 

[napZzz]

needs a redo with olimar, I'm always convinced the matchup is snakes worst one easily <_<

 

[SuSa]

I can't beat Lolimars... only matchup that gives me trouble

<_< I sadly agree with you.

So uhm *goes and edits the op*

Let's start discussion.

 

[Vorguen]

Against Zamus, you can camp her quite well. Watch for her Side-B's mostly she plays good keep away with those. If she's smart, she'll retreat with Side-B too.

If you can master powershielding it you'll be leagues ahead. Careful of her edguarding game too, it's good. She can follow you offstage with side-B's and B-airs and a number of other things.

Expect to get juggled. Mix things up with momentum changing with grenades, occasional (but very very situational) B-airs, well timed air-dodges, etc.

The most important thing is to not get juggled, and downsmashed.

A down smash is a free 30-40% if she knows how to do it right and at high %'s it's an extremely easy kill because it can link to most of her kill moves (Side-B, U-air, B-air)

Grenades are your best friends here, you force her to approach and you'll find that she will probably end up using her side-B to do it.

If you can power shield that, tilt her.


Her down-B can become predictable but it will also save her from a lot. Don't try to go aggresive on it if you're below her the majority of the time you'll get punished for it. Just shield. If you're above her and she does it towards you and she's approximately at your height, you can try to space a N-air.


Another thing she tries to do at times is Up-B you when you're above her, this pulls you to the stage (and it can link to an U-tilt, if she is mid-air to an U-air).

If she does it you have to tech the stage or you will get punished. Roll away too, or you'll eat a downsmash, and that's a lot of percentage.

Her stun gun (neutral B) usually gets linked to grabs, side B is normally not fast enough and you can powershield it. Obviously, try not to get stunned.

Zamus has good setups from grabs, so don't get grabbed. lol


You can powershield the third hit of her jab, so be prepared to punish it if she finishes it off instead of cancelling it into another move.

Her F-tilt is not something I see often, but watch for her D-tilt because it props you up very nicely into her aerials which are hard to avoid and juggle you well.

Her dash attack links to her U-tilt as well.


The matchup is in my opinion 50/50.


When grounded, Snake has a good advantage on ZSS, but ZSS has so many options to prop Snake into the air for a juggle-fest and she has no problem killing either. Her B-air fresh kills very well.


Also don't roll. Her D-smash has a ******** hitbox.

 

[luke_atyeo]

so anyways guys, olimar, I had an idea (hopefully its a new one) but I havnt really played much olimar and am at work right now so maybe someone else could test it for us, but here it is, if you knock olimar off the edge and then use a nikita and circle it such a way that it is between olimar and the ledge then olimars upB would have to go through the nikita.

now would this mean that the nikita would cancel out olimar's upB thus easily gimping him, or would it just go throught the nikita?

 

[SuSa]

90% sure it would go through.

However him pulling into the stage may make him hit the nikita.

 

[Ken Neth]

Should we make the separate threads for each discussion again? I think it would really help now, especially when we're discussing two matchups at once.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Seems like a good idea to me.

 

[Ken Neth]

Thread for the Olimar Discussion

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7489449#post7489449

Thread for ZSS Discussion

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7489468#post7489468

If people would copy/paste what they've said so far in this thread into these new threads, that would be great. Also, has anyone contacted the Olimar/ZSS boards yet?

 

[Black_Heretic]

Also, has anyone contacted the Olimar/ZSS boards yet?

I got this

 

[The Milk Monster]

I have played a fairly experienced Olimar, and Olimar is quite a pain to get around.

A lot of his stuff shuts any attempt at an approach down, and due to his camping, he sort of forces you to approach in a sense, he's hard to outcamp, he can hit you fairly easily out of your up b with a lot of his moves, and at the beginning of the match, if he gets a grab off, he gets almost a free 30ish% through down throw, up smash, and up air, with the right pikmin.

Though his light weight makes for an early kill, easily gimp able, and it takes him a decent amount of time to kill you. Most of Snakes moves destroy his Pikmin, and they are easy to get off once attached. Watch out for the freaking up smashes with Yellow's though, that stuff sends you SOARING almost too quick to DI it.

I'd say it's 60:40 Olimar at absolute most.
MAYBE 55:45, but it doesn't seem high enough.

 

[Ken Neth]

Thread for the Olimar Discussion

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7489449#post7489449

Thread for ZSS Discussion

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7489468#post7489468

If people would copy/paste what they've said so far in this thread into these new threads, that would be great. Also, has anyone contacted the Olimar/ZSS boards yet?



Just reposting this so the links are on the last page. If you guys could copy/paste your thoughts into their respective threads and move the rest of the discussion in there as well that would be great. Thanks.

 

[Black_Heretic]

I posted the links in both of their Q&A threads

 

[Barbeque]

Falco has one of the most predictable recoveries in the game, and one is almost never used because it's easy to stage spike. Just as he can gimp us, we can gimp him.

Crouching stops his lasers, and if needed you can powershield. You can stay at the length of his IAP away, so you can powershield > ftilt punish the (small) end lag.

Every now and then grenades can be helpful, and if the Falco think's he can outcamp you - he's wrong.

Falco CAN hit a crouched snake (go watch RAIN vs 9B pl0x) but that leaves him open for Snake to bridge the gap between them. However it can force us to approach if done correctly.

Falco has real big issues killing Snake. I don't care what upsmash/mindgame stuff you think you have, you don't really have it. If you can mindgame upsmash us. We can mindgame fsmash you. (Fsmash on platform = funny hitbox. People think they are safe when they aren't....) So assuming you know the matchup at all, you shouldn't be doing until rediculous percents. (Talking 170-200% with good DI and knowing the matchup. Your death generally happens second and you die from a fresh bair or a really well spaced fsmash)

The chaingrab is relatively easy to avoid if you simply camp until safer %'s. There is less risk that way, just don't play stupid.

I used to say 55:45 Falco, then slowly went to 50:50 even. Now I'm leaning ever more towards 55:45 Snake as time goes on and I learn the matchup.

At low levels of play:

Falco has advantage

Medium levels:

Falco has a slight advantage

Higher levels:

It goes even

Pro levels:

I feel Snake has the advantage.


(You should face a good Olimar if you think Falco is an annoying matchup)

I refuse to play Olimar's with Snake after a recent incident. Only refreshened my mind of why I hate that matchup. I will use Snake against Falco's however.

Yeah I also think Olimar is somewhat annoying with Snake but whatevs(I haven't played Olimars in a long time anyways, I played falcos alot more often), you can't argue over opinion. Thanks for your feedback, maybe i'll think otherwise the next time I play a good falco again.

 

[DanGR]

Snake, eh? All I gotta do as Oli is camp him from the middle of the stage, spamming grabs/fsmashes/pivotgrabs correctly when he approaches. If When I get a grab at a really low percent, I'll just get the guaranteed dthrow->upsmash->upair, get to the ground quickly, and camp more- thereby leaving no room for guessing games, baiting, or anything that could possibly be punished if I guess or do anything incorrectly. It shouldn't really matter what you ban or counterpick. Oli is good on pretty much every legal stage Snake is good on. That's it, really.

 

[Panix]

Snake, eh? All I gotta do as Oli is camp him from the middle of the stage, spamming grabs/fsmashes/pivotgrabs correctly when he approaches. If When I get a grab at a really low percent, I'll just get the guaranteed dthrow->upsmash->upair, get to the ground quickly, and camp more- thereby leaving no room for guessing games, baiting, or anything that could possibly be punished if I guess or do anything incorrectly. It shouldn't really matter what you ban or counterpick. Oli is good on pretty much every legal stage Snake is good on. That's it, really.

Thats when we Counter pick MARTH!

 

[DanGR]

Thats when we Counter pick MARTH!

Eeeewwww... >_<

 

[xDD-Master]

Hey what about ROB ? Is it even ? Or in who has the adventage ? I'm asking because I myself have some trouble with "spammy" Robs and I think a top spamming ROB > Snake.

It's not that I dont win, it's like 50/50 me vs. spammy ROBs, but maybe the ROBs I faced doesn't spam THAT hard because until now I only fought them in friendlies, so idk. You know that the spam increases with the relevance of the match

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Last number I remember for ROB was 60-40 his advantage. Rob's laser is just a lot more spammable than our grenade (1 laser = 1 second; grenade = 3 second), include the gimps with 2nd jump and UpB when combined with Fair and RoB can kill early while we have to wait till the proper percents. And fighting rob on luigi's mansion is a pain.

 

[Jman77]

I think snake and ROB might be 50-50. He can gimp us but hes very easy to tech chase. His roll is slow and his get up attack is slow. Plus hes not THAT heavy so we can kill him decently early maybe 110-150 ish. In my opinion the only thing thats a pain on stage is hig laser. Other then that snake win's the ground game.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm not entirely sure to begin with. Things with the match-up thread have been outdated for a long time now, and I believe someone was going to rewrite everything here soon.

 

[Black_Heretic]

Rob is 50-50 or possibly 55-45 Rob, any advantage is stage dependent and we have an advantage on Halberd and possibly Pokemon Stadium

at least that's what I think XD

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Ok, it's at least 60-40 on luigi's mansion then xD

 

[Black_Heretic]

mansion is banned in Norcal so I don't even know =]