This is dead, look for the new matchup thread. Be sure to read the rules.

[SamuraiPanda]

Everytime you hit Wolfs shield with ftilt it's a guaranteed fsmash for Wolf. Just because Omniswell doesn't do it to you (yet - I told him on AIM that it works) doesn't mean that Wolf can't beat or react to ftilt, Panda. In fact there's nothing worse Snake could do than to hit Wolfs shield with ftilt.
Besides since when is ftilt a problem for Wolf? Bair easily beats it if it's well spaced and lol @ Staco saying Wolf bair can be punished with ftilt. Nope this isn't the case.



Powershielding > Snake camping.

What's the point? Powershielding beats any kind of camping. By that logic I could say that Wolf beats snake 'cuz all he has to do is to Powershield every move. That doesn't work.
Either way, it's still Snake who has to approach and Wolf, who can punish every single move of Snake with fsmash.

Yes, Wolfs fsmash is easily punished and laggy but only bad Wolves randomly hit shields with it. If you have to approach Wolf (and Snake has to) and hit his shield he can punish many moves with fsmash without his opponent being able to shield it in return - it comes out fast and has enough reach to punish even the 2nd hit of Snake's ftilt.

Why would I hit his shield with an Ftilt? If he has time to shield then I'd rather grab him. Spaced bairs have a really predictable pattern, so you can just run in between them, dash attack him, throw a nade, mortar slide, etc. Tons of options.

Plus, you seem to be misunderstanding why powershielding works so well against Wolf. He has a large, slow projectile that he shoots out whenever you're too far to hit otherwise. It is ridiculously easy to see coming, or even powershield on reaction when you don't predict it.

And Wolf's shine is easy to get around with nades. Just lob it over him and strip it in front of him. Or you can just cook it.

Sorry, but Wolf does not go even with Snake at all.

 

[Hot_ArmS]

Shut up, Suicide already

and:

Susa is one of the oldest cities in the world.

oh haha its also the tag of the person who drew my avatar

 

[AfroQT]

Why would I hit his shield with an Ftilt? If he has time to shield then I'd rather grab him. Spaced bairs have a really predictable pattern, so you can just run in between them, dash attack him, throw a nade, mortar slide, etc. Tons of options.

Plus, you seem to be misunderstanding why powershielding works so well against Wolf. He has a large, slow projectile that he shoots out whenever you're too far to hit otherwise. It is ridiculously easy to see coming, or even powershield on reaction when you don't predict it.

And Wolf's shine is easy to get around with nades. Just lob it over him and strip it in front of him. Or you can just cook it.

Sorry, but Wolf does not go even with Snake at all.

Thisssssss

 

[Sosuke]

Toon Link's are discussing Snake stage counterpicks and bans!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209912

It'll only take like 2-3 minutes. Just post what you think is a good/ bad stage for Snake (against Toon Link) and why.
It can be like one sentence or something. Just put some amount of an explanation please. ^_^



Ftilt is lame grrrr


...


No, jk.

 

[Sandst0rm]

Why would I hit his shield with an Ftilt? If he has time to shield then I'd rather grab him. Spaced bairs have a really predictable pattern, so you can just run in between them, dash attack him, throw a nade, mortar slide, etc. Tons of options.

Plus, you seem to be misunderstanding why powershielding works so well against Wolf. He has a large, slow projectile that he shoots out whenever you're too far to hit otherwise. It is ridiculously easy to see coming, or even powershield on reaction when you don't predict it.

And Wolf's shine is easy to get around with nades. Just lob it over him and strip it in front of him. Or you can just cook it.

Sorry, but Wolf does not go even with Snake at all.

QFT.

As for stages Snake vs. Toon Link. I don't really know since I don't play good TLinks around here. But when I do, I always seem to do better in the smaller stages. It's easier to approach him. Sometimes I beat my friend's tink on bigger stages, but I find way harder to approach..and I don't like camping the entire time :<...But yeah, I'd love to hear everyone else's take on this.

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

I like Delfino for fighting Toon Links. Or any stage in which Snake can control easier with claymores and C4s.

 

[SuSa]

I believe we should try to get in depth more, and more technical with how we approach matchups.


Example being using 1 Jab or the entire AAA combo in a matchup (refer to This Post)

Who we can Jab > Buffer Ftilt on.

Who has a hard/impossible time DI'ing out of our nair.

Who rolls far/fast and is therefore hard to dthrow techchase.

Who rolls slow/close and is therefore easy to dthrow techchase.

How do opponents getup? (Before and After 100%) -- I notice some characters attack AWAY from Snake first, then towards Snake. So simply taking 1 step back and standing their allows you to react in time to ALL OF THEIR OPTIONS and basically GUARANTEE a follow up below 100%.

Opponents would be classified in:

1. Attacks away (Link at below 100% if I remember...or did he attack towards?)
2. Attacks Towards (I forget who)
3. Attacks both direction (like Samus at 100% + if I remember correctly)

G&W/Olimar have pathetic rolls and are easy to regrab, while Samus/Snake have really fast/far rolls. (You have to boost grab to chain a Snake who rolls away from you.)

I've noticed some characters are much harder to hit with Grenades (Olimar) because of their height, at certain distances you just throw the grenade right over them. A (somewhat) fix to this is to have to run off the stage and throw the grenade. It'd be useful to have a list of characters too short to be hit by a grenade when its (1. weak tossed. 2. strong tossed) - AFTER BEING SHIELD DROPPED


/posts this in my metagame thread...

 

[Lemon?]

Its a shame the matchup thread in the snake boards isnt taken seriously, especially since Brawl is mostly about matchups and counterpicks. Getting all the 39 matchups done would really help all the snake players, both pros and newbies but then its also hard to contribute anything when the thread title says "Currently: Vs. Wolf" and in the opening post it says "Currently: VS. Luigi"... Which is it?

I was just checking the ike matchup guide in the ike boards because there is currently no information on the ike matchup, for example. They have 33 characters discussed and almost 200 pages, we have 11 characters and 60 pages; also the last 2 posts are 8 days apart, which is weird since there are so many snake players...

Im saying all this but ive never actually posted in this thread. I just dont know much about matchups and counterpicks, which is why I was checking the ike boards LOL But I promise Ill actually start posting what I know about certain matchups here from now on ... This was just a reminder, if we want to progress our game, we have to get our matchup guide done, I think its an important aspect of Brawl.

TL;DR - Let's step it up.

 

[Panix]

The snake boards are lazy, no one wants to do anything. and once you get the basic jive of snake its the same answer to every match up. I left because of the lack of anyone caring. I'm not somebody to contribute, but alot of top snake players just don't care, when boards like "peach" which is a less played character has people like "eddress" they get the match-up's out of the way quick. G&W boards have people like OBM who I think they are "RE-"disscussing match-ups. (correct my spelling, the person who made the character chart that yuna debated) it's lack of that one person actually cares.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Hey guys, the Peach Boards are discussing the Snake match up. Sensible and civil contribution would be greatly appreciated

Here's the link

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230745

Thanks in advance

 

[Ken Neth]

I will be back to updating this once I am done with school. College has been ****** me.

But my last final is on wednesday then I'm done

 

[sasook]

Hey Snake mains, the Links are discussing the matchup.

Here's the deal though, the Links moved from SWF to AiB a while back because.......... it's a long story. We're at AiB now, and we'd love to hear what you guys think about the matchup.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=82514

Now, we've had this problem in the past - sometimes the mains of _____ don't have AiB accounts. We're willing to comply if perhaps that were the case, could we possibly discuss it here, in the Snake forums? We're not asking for you to change your weekly discussion or anything, just create a new thread about Link vs. Snake. Hopefully this won't be a major issue.

Again, your input is greatly appreciated.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Hey Snake mains, the Kirbys are discussing the match-up. lol, seems a lot of boards are discussing the Snake MU . The Kirbys are going to have another go at it in our new supplement MU thread here...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231516

Any input you are willing to give would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Attila_]

I believe we should try to get in depth more, and more technical with how we approach matchups.


Example being using 1 Jab or the entire AAA combo in a matchup (refer to This Post)

Who we can Jab > Buffer Ftilt on.

Who has a hard/impossible time DI'ing out of our nair.

Who rolls far/fast and is therefore hard to dthrow techchase.

Who rolls slow/close and is therefore easy to dthrow techchase.

How do opponents getup? (Before and After 100%) -- I notice some characters attack AWAY from Snake first, then towards Snake. So simply taking 1 step back and standing their allows you to react in time to ALL OF THEIR OPTIONS and basically GUARANTEE a follow up below 100%.

Opponents would be classified in:

1. Attacks away (Link at below 100% if I remember...or did he attack towards?)
2. Attacks Towards (I forget who)
3. Attacks both direction (like Samus at 100% + if I remember correctly)

G&W/Olimar have pathetic rolls and are easy to regrab, while Samus/Snake have really fast/far rolls. (You have to boost grab to chain a Snake who rolls away from you.)

I've noticed some characters are much harder to hit with Grenades (Olimar) because of their height, at certain distances you just throw the grenade right over them. A (somewhat) fix to this is to have to run off the stage and throw the grenade. It'd be useful to have a list of characters too short to be hit by a grenade when its (1. weak tossed. 2. strong tossed) - AFTER BEING SHIELD DROPPED


/posts this in my metagame thread...

this would actually be incredibly helpful. fantastic idea

Its a shame the matchup thread in the snake boards isnt taken seriously, especially since Brawl is mostly about matchups and counterpicks.

TL;DR - Let's step it up.

can quite safely say i dont really see a point to general matchup discussion. theres too much variation among characters; everyone has an individual playstyle, and muse be countered as an individual. for instance, i struggle against gw who we have an advantage on, but never against wolf or pit, despite matchups telling me that i should. its because i have an aggressive snake, used to being in their faces, which is an appropriate playstyle for campy projectile characters.

but what susa suggested would be a useful approach to a matchup thread, because frame data and the like is universal, regardless of playstyle. i just might select my attacks a little more precisely.

 

[Ken Neth]

Okay, I'm back. This thread will get done soon enough. First character named is who we'll discuss XD

 

[Hot_ArmS]

Snake!

yay dittos -.-

 

[Ken Neth]

Haha I don't know how much that is needed, cause you just know that they can do everything you can and you need to be ready to deal with that. I still think that could be helpful, but not as much as another matchup. Maybe we'll do that matchup once the others are all done.

Snake dittos are my favorite matchup by far though XD

 

[MrEh]

Bowser lol

 

[Ken Neth]

Bowser it is LOL.

Here's the new thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7273250#post7273250

I liked how we did it with wolf. Everyone try to keep your posts in there, so we can keep it all related to bowser without getting sidetracked by other matchups.

I'm updating the OP now.

 

[noahbaby94]

Bowser's easy camp nades, motar slide and u-tilt to win. Watch out for koopa claw suicide though.

 

[Ken Neth]

You obviously haven't played a good bowser.

These are not the types of posts we are looking for in matchup discussions. It helps no one, and just makes the other character sound like trash that can't do anything. Let's get some educated discussion in here please.

Plus, we're aiming to keep the discussion in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthrea...50#post7273250

 

[kigbariom]

The Luigi Boards cordially invite you to the discussion of, "How to beat Snake" in our boards.
This is not a match-up discussion, it is solely on how to beat Snake.
For more information, read the OP.

We'd love some advice and ideas so we can beat you guys.
Thanks!

 

[Ken Neth]

Okay, the Bowser matchup seems to have come to a halt. Plus, it has now been a week.

What character should we do next? Someone say a character we haven't done yet and we'll start.

Also, I'm going to try and make the OP of this thread more presentable, and maybe write some of the missing overviews till I'm sick of that.

 

[DZhou]

ZSS?
(10 plasma whip spams)

 

[Random Question]

ZSS or sonic

 

[Ken Neth]

I have a TON of sonic experience, and relatively none with ZSS. So let's discuss sonic this week and get that over with quickly, and then we will do ZSS next week.

Discuss the sonic matchup here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7325596#post7325596

 

[napZzz]

I'd just like to say, that other boards have some different opinions it seems than us. Wario boards have us listed as 6/4 in his favor, GnW boards are labeled as 65/35 our favor, etc. We should try taking what the other summaries say when we do our own, if we aren't already

 

[Ken Neth]

The wario one was a long time ago, and the writeup for that is way out of date. At that time, that was the general consensus, but now the metagame of that matchup has changed a lot. We're definitely going to need to go in and rediscuss some of these matchups once we finish with all the ones we haven't done yet.

 

[abit_rusty]

You know what? I always thought GaW had a greater advantage against us than what we've decided on. Especially now with bucket cancelling and all. I'd probably be up for helping out revisions but right now I'm still living up to my name.

 

[Lawlmahbawls]

Bucket braking doesn't help him stop the u-tilt kill %'s. <____<;

 

[xsephirot]

Can we talk about the PIT matchup? I am struggling with this matchup. It seems like they can outcamp us unless you are timing jump throwing nades perfectly. And often times their arrows hits our nades while we are attempting to throw which only harms us even more. The arrows stops our dash and powershield approaches only makes you get ***** with forward b and/or down smash.

 

[Panix]

I think we should discuss the snake on snake action.

I play alot of snakes so doing snake would be great.

 

[Kataefi]

Hi snakes! Could we invite you here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234054

Zelda's are rediscussing snake and we'd like some accurate information! Thanks!

 

[ICE27]

Snake Vs King Dedede Match-up Summary

The matchup between King Dedede and Snake is extremely annoying. D3 is slightly slowing then Snake. One good thing is he can't out camp you. But, the bad side to that is he can chain grab you very well in fact to the point where you can't break out. This is how he builds damage on you. Once in a chain grab this will put you off the ledge. Off the ledge can be very painful. This is where he will edge guard you very well with bair, fair, dair, uair and or Dededecides giving he has lost the percent lead or is up a stock. This is in fact Snake's worst match-up.

D3's not really the trickster his personality gives off. He is all about one point “Grabs” his main game is Grab> Chain grab> Edge guard. He will go for the grab 100% of the time. If you camp him, he will camp back with waddle doo/dees/Gordo's. That’s where you have to use your lobbing/throwing skills with the grenades to sneak past those fat boys and rack damage. Avoiding D3's grab is the most important thing in this match-up since you will be spending a lot of the match doing so. If you jab/F-tilt/D-tilt(he can powershield all of those into a grab) or if you time an up-tilt wrong he will grab you and proceed to chain-grabbing that’s why I said this is so annoying to fight against. Never approach if you don't have to. You will have to camp with grenades most of the time due to the fact you can't take a swing at him without getting grabbed. You literally have to catch him off guard and only take swings at him while his back is turned so you know you won't get grabbed.

Eventually the grenades will were down on him and make him want to get in closer. You can always drop grenade to mortar slide to keep up your camping game if he gets to close to you. The grenades will cover your back or you can pick them up just in case he gets a grab on you. Also this is where you will want to use your grabs. Tech chasing D3 is one of the best damage builders in the match-up because the options from the D-throw are very limited. Since you can pretty much re-grab him just stand and shield the get up attack. The rolls are easy to read as well, just dash forward to grab or turn around and grab. If he lays there, a simple Jab>Dashgrab will put you back into the game. You can kill him with most of your moveset at around 110%. Well timed nairs/dairs will do the trick. The third hit of the jab kills as well. Up-tilt and F-tilt can kill since they more than likely will be fresh. When off the ledge proceed to edgeguard him (oh yes! You can edge guard him just as well as he edge guards you but in a different way). You can be risky and use your aerials or you can play it safe and spam mortars with well timed quick ledge grabs. (note: his bair and nair neutralize up smash but if your spamming he won't dair try it *see what I did there? dair/dare I'm just joking. When he finally goes for that big leap into the sky that leaves him wide open use your freshest aerial to whack him with it feels great getting a free hit like that on D3.

These are discreet details in the match-up that I will mention as they might tip the game in your favor. You can smash DI his uair and dair and throw out a quick bair or uair of your own while airborne. B-sticking grenades in the air will help you avoid getting grabbed when you land. Watch out for chaingrab>to ledge>D-tilt as the tilt will send you horizontal and put you in a position to be easily edgeguarded since you can't get above him faster then he can position himself above you. Other situations he might try to grab release you at the edge where it tends to make u drop or make you jump out and away from the stage. His suck can be neutralized with a grenade which will put on damage and set him up for a quick move such as a F-tilt(21% fresh) or an aerial preferable a dair/nair(Both 28% fresh). Some D3's might try to D-throw>F-smash if they noticed you spamming B trying to break the chaingrab the D-throw makes for perfect tipper range on the F-smash. On some stages with platforms while camping the platforms if you notice him going for a fair or bair utilize your exploding shield technique for free damage. When two waddles are out try blowing them both up this pops them up making it so D3 can't throw more at you and makes it easier to throw grenades at him (very situational). Your U-tilt out ranges his grab use it wisely. He can grab you in between F-tilts. In conclusion camping is your best option here so set up your tent and make like a boy scout because you going to have plenty of time out camping the King.

Counterpick Stages

Battefield: Multiple platforms to jump around/camp on making it easy to avoid grabs. Can plant c4 on the platforms and make for good traps that he can't avoid while recovering with upB.

Yoshi's Island (Brawl): Middle platform can be camped as well with the guarantee of not getting chain grabbed as much since you can stay there a majority of the match. Be careful of side slopes as they tend to make you slide when landing on them.

Halberd: The platform in the middle and the slopes on the sides make for camping and grenade throws that cover the stage. When the stage goes big camping the platform can be done but not necessary since you have so much free space in between you and your opponent.

Bans

Final Destination: No platforms to camp on. You have to run the entire game on this map.

Picto Chat: The big brother of FD since the ground platform is so much longer. Plus, walls pop up on this map from time to time.

 

[Nic64]

I think we should discuss the snake on snake action.

I play alot of snakes so doing snake would be great.

I agree because I'm pretty awful at this matchup lol

 

[SuSa]

I think we should discuss the snake on snake action.

I play alot of snakes so doing snake would be great.

Snake is quite possibly the only character that needs a matchup for his own ditto.

Because there's 3 ways to play this matchup.

Offensive
Camping
Punishing

(Punishing and Camping are different)

 

[Ken Neth]

K Snake it is.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234290

I'm actually leaving for hawaii for a week in like three minutes so I have to make this fast. Someone make sure this discussion moves along. See ya guys in a week.

Go discuss in the thread linked above.

 

[abit_rusty]

I only had time to change the title. I have to leave like RIGHT now. I'll update the OP when I get back.

Link to the discussion again:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234290

Take care guys.

~Ken Neth

 

[napZzz]

Just leave this at out smarting the other snake and having the advantage of port 4 maybeh.

 

[ICE27]

Yeah this is just a better at camping really. If you can camp better you win. And better up close game like being able to tech read too. But, other then that not much esle to mention I would say.