The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Nidtendofreak]

And I can strike FD, SV, and BF just to watch the other guy give me a rather puzzled look! :D

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

It'd be nice to have some sort of changelog so we can see the progression.

Finally, I can strike FD, SV, and YI:B.

^ Good suggestion San. I'll bring that up.

 

[Reizilla]

Hooray for DDD.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hooray for DDD.

Strike FD, PS1, CS.

It's not that bad.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm just going to ask people now:

"Hey do you wanna go to Castle Siege?"

..

 

[T-block]

I don't even think CS is that great for Dedede tbh.

 

[ErikG]

Hurray.
Lylat or PS1 game 1.

 

[Espy Rose]

Love the new change. Awesome.

 

[-Ran]

It'd be nice to have some sort of changelog so we can see the progression.

Finally, I can strike FD, SV, and YI:B.

I agree. Need a change log. ;d

 

[Chuee]

yay for castle seige.

 

[Eddie G]

Great update, guys. Definitely one of the more well-rounded stagelists I've seen.

 

[WindMajor]

I love that you guys picked Castle Siege! Yeeees!

And I guess my predictions were half right. I'm still counting on the next update for the other half!

 

[Life]

I'm just going to ask people now:

"Hey do you wanna go to Castle Siege?"

..

I would take you up on that.
/hope3

 

[Sinister Slush]

Hooray for DDD.

Not that hard to stay off the ground on the second Stage... Hell I even beat Syoudous's King D3 on CS by just camping and staying off the ground/away from him the whole time back from WHGU3.

 

[Reizilla]

What the hell was he doing playing DDD? x)

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I would take you up on that.
/hope3

Man I don't wanna play anymore Sonics, ITT tried to time me out last weekend..Game 2...23 seconds left on the clock. I got some dumb Up-Tilt off somehow.It totally reminded me of when we played at /HOPE2 lol

No more man!

EDIT: To get back on topic..So what shall we talk about in this lovely thread of ours?

 

[Reizilla]

Adding PS2 when you move up to 9 starters :3



How did you go about deciding this change? Did you vote for 5/7 starters and then the stages, or did you vote on where CS/PS1 should be starter/CP? I guess, which was decided first? That there should be 7 starters, or that PS1/CS were good enough stages to be starters?

 

[Life]

Man I don't wanna play anymore Sonics, ITT tried to time me out last weekend..Game 2...23 seconds left on the clock. I got some dumb Up-Tilt off somehow.It totally reminded me of when we played at /HOPE2 lol

No more man!

EDIT: To get back on topic..So what shall we talk about in this lovely thread of ours?

I didn't remotely time you out, LOL. Actually you won pretty soundly (1 stock low percent and 2 stock high percent as I recall it). I bet I could time you out decently on CS though, given that I spend a third of the stage running circles around you. (No MMs though, I'll still lose somehow)

Let's talk about Japes.

 

[Sinister Slush]

What the hell was he doing playing DDD? x)

He asked Broly for advice after I beat his MK, I guess he said D3 on CS after whatever I banned against him. (Probably RC)

EDIT: To get back on topic..So what shall we talk about in this lovely thread of ours?

Removing Brinstar and adding Jungle Japes Norfair and possibly Pirate Ship to the CP list.

 

[John12346]

Why would we remove Brinstar?

Sure, MK is a total ****** on that stage, but other than that, what's wrong with it?

Personally speaking, we should go with adding Jungle Japes, Norfair, and Pirate Ship, like you said, and raising the number of stage bans per player to 2.

 

[DeLux]

We ought to open up discussion on the specifics of the coaching rule Tech

 

[Reizilla]

^that. Personally, I prefer coaching not happen at all during sets.

 

[DeLux]

I kind of agree. The rule needs to completely allow coaching OR disallow coaching

I'm on the other end of the spectrum and would completely allow coaching for a multitude of reasons. But I can see some validity in allowing no coaching at all.

Trying to walk the line between the two is arbitrary and incoherent.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Now we can keep BPC quiet for a while...

Now, add PS2 and Delfino.

I'll be silent when BBR 3.1 is the commonly accepted ruleset.

But in all seriousness, this is a major step in the right direction and I commend the TOs involved.

And I can strike FD, SV, and BF just to watch the other guy give me a rather puzzled look! :D

YESZ. SO TOTALLY THISZ.

Hooray for DDD.

Eh, it ain't that bad. FD, PS1 and LC... So he gets... SV? That's not that bad.


Also, I think that one thing that should be brought up (again) is an additional stage ban. Lots of people *****ing about RC-Brinstar.

 

[WindMajor]

Although I prefer no coaching at all, seeing as Brawl singles is an individual e-sport and because of this, the individual player should be responsible for his decisions and his knowledge (and/or lack of knowledge) in all situations.

However, I understand that it's very difficult to enforce a ban on all forms of coaching entirely, since having a dedicated coach tell you what to do between rounds can be very similar or almost identical to having members of a crowd yell advice to you between rounds.

 

[AuraStUrm]

Hooray for moar starters!

Now we just need moar couterpicks. Great update, though.

 

[BSP]

I wouldn't like mid match coaching because if my opponent can't see their own patterns or what is and isn't working, they shouldn't have someone there to bail them out mid game.

I'm fine with it between games.

 

[WindMajor]

I wouldn't like mid match coaching because if my opponent can't see their own patterns or what is and isn't working, they shouldn't have someone there to bail them out mid game.

I'm fine with it between games.

In both cases, the player is getting outsider help that can potentially modify the outcome of a game in a set. The effect is the same, the only difference would be the timing.

 

[Reizilla]

I've won 2 or 3 sets, pretty much because of between-game coaching. Even small stuff can be enough to tip the balance of the entire set.

Thing is, it should be player v player, not player and his smartest buddy vs. player and his smartest buddy, etc. I think this is particularly a problem on mid-level because if someone can get one of the top players to help them out, that top player is most likely going to tell them how to win that set. But even at top level, like Apex 2, where it was (at least, according to the stream) everyone trying to coach M2K against Brood. Far-traveling players rarely have crowds cheering for them, and then just top that off with all the knowledge of the region's best players or whatever just isn't right in my opinion.

 

[WindMajor]

Like I said, it's kind of like turning an individual sport into a team sport, only not to that great of an extent.

 

[BSP]

In both cases, the player is getting outsider help that can potentially modify the outcome of a game in a set. The effect is the same, the only difference would be the timing.

Well, if only between matches is allowed, at best, my opponent gets help on what I did last match. I can still switch up my tactics and such for remaining games.

I haven't been coached mid game so IDK exactly how helpful it is. I'd rather it removed completely if possible, but like I said, IDK exactly how much of an influence it has. And telling someone, "you can't get any advice from your friends, sorry" sounds wrong imo

 

[AlphaZealot]

We are currently voting and looking at Norfair. It is not looking good for that stage though, don't hold your breath.

For me, personally, I love the stage, had in included in MLG 2010 ruleset, and I voted against it. I can't speak for other people. The reason is that it received far to much heat for the potential benefits it adds.

 

[BSP]

MK benefits or just lava shenanigans in general?

 

[Ussi]

Lava plumes can really get out of hand

 

[Reizilla]

We are currently voting and looking at Norfair. It is not looking good for that stage though, don't hold your breath.

For me, personally, I love the stage, had in included in MLG 2010 ruleset, and I voted against it. I can't speak for other people. The reason is that it received far to much heat for the potential benefits it adds.

Oh, you!

I still don't see how that can have anything to do with it being a competitively sound stage... :/

 

[Tesh]

Yeah, I agree with Tesh.

I don't know why AZ is being so rude about it.

If a player is coming from online to offline to play in a tournament, should they have to learn the game all over again? If the "Unity Ruleset" isn't enforced in a "Unified" manner in the smash community - what is the point of having it?

I know that Anti, ADHD, Ally, and myself have all started on wifi. It's sorta of a shock if you go to an offline tournament only to find that all the rules have been changed. Which would decrease attendants in tournaments.

Unify it on AllIsBrawl. Just because you may not respect wifi at your current standpoint AZ, doesn't mean you should just disregard it altogether.

It helps mold and shape players to become what they are today.

I don't think he was being rude, perhaps a little presumptuous and condescending, but I should expect it.

The thing is that the Unity Ruleset is tailored for offline tournament gameplay, not online. AiB can't just quickly adopt the Unity Ruleset in its purity because there are a lot of rules that don't transfer correctly, and are hard to enforce over a wifi ladder. For one, the yellow/red card system doesn't correctly blend in with the wifi ladder, even though AiB has a very similar system.

I have no idea if there is a ledge grab limit in the wifi ladder, but if there is, how would one reliably enforce it? Same with Metaknight's IDC and any other thing that would require either a photograph or a replay to prove. It's too easy to forge, and it's not reliable, so rules to work with enforceability would have to be added/changed in order to suit the wifi ladder.

Point is that if AiB were to adopt Unity, they wouldn't really be adopting the Unity ruleset, they would only be using a framework of it to create an entirely new ruleset that adjusts for online play. It's not the BRC's area of expertise to create online rulesets, since none of them are online tournament organizers. If you want the ladder to adopt the Unity Ruleset, the BRC aren't the guys you should be badgering to get it on, since they have little to no relation to online play. Like they have been saying, get nealdt from AiB to make the changes, or to at least work with the BRC to get them to help out with the ruleset.

ENFORCABILITY!!? Thats a HORRIBLE arguement. By that logic, the wifi ladder shouldn't have any rules at all. I've trashed people 2-0 on the ladder only to have them lie to a mod and CONVINCE them that I lost. I already KNOW that online has enforceability issues.

To be honest, I thought the BBRRC had partnered up with AiB in an effort for this. As Illmatic already pointed out, wifi doesn't only churn out pot fillers like me. Imagine we have a talented player thats never been to an offline tournament. He practices on wifi and is REALLY good. However, his favorite counterpick is Jungle Japes and he has NEVER played on Ps2 before. Online play (to some extent) is designed to mimic offline play. And I feel if they have a competitive ladder on AiB AND AiB happens to be on board with Unity, the ladder should have a Unity ruleset to match as close as POSSIBLE.

As for yellow card/ red card system, the internet has had something WAY better and WAY more effective since the beginning of time. If you get way too out of hand on website, you can get banned and the ladder has its own system for dealing with cheaters as well.

If you have no control or impact at all as far as AiB ruleset, thats fine, just say so. I assumed you guys would be able to get something done on that front as well.

Twinkie hit the nail on the head. It would be impossible for them to adopt the entire ruleset (which I think I already mentioned).

Also, the ruleset has been updated to 1.3, we are switching to a 7 stage starter list, with Castle Siege and Pokemon Stadium 1 being added to the starter list from Counter Pick list.

Starters | Counterpicks
Battlefield|Battleship Halberd
Castle Siege|Brinstar
Final Destination|Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise|Pokémon Stadium 2
Pokemon Stadium 1|Rainbow Cruise
Smashville|Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)|

Strike order is: 2-3-1

Again, there will be no further updates until after Genesis II occurs.

When the BBRRC first emerged talking about blocking coverage and stickies for TOs that don't do things their way I thought "what a bunch of tyrants!". But now that I see you guys are willing to listen and evolve I'm thinking "these are my kind of tyrants!!"

I'm a little sad not to see Delfino or Halberd in there though. And ofcourse we all know why it wouldn't be fair to have an aerial stage on the starter list. I suppose its a matter of perception though. To be fair to as many characters as possible, it would be nice if the starter list wasn't consistent of the 6 or 7 most ground based stages in the game. I hope once MK is banned or nerfed some more, you will reconsider being fair to aerial based characters that aren't broken.

 

[AlphaZealot]

There was a point in time where I believed in only looking at what is "purely" competitive, using largely Sirlin's definitive of what is "broken". Almost no one in the Smash community would agree with using that, which is when I realized popular opinion/common acceptance/ease of use plays a part in determining what a ruleset should be.

 

[Tesh]

If popular opinion is so important, then why isn't Metaknight banned yet?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Scatz]

Yeah, that's a double standard by what you're stating.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Oh goodness...MK...

He is a sticky subject. From the point of a TO, personally (again can't speak for any other TO) I would prefer the status quo with MK than trying something controversial.

MK is a stupid character though. Sigh...such scrubby terminology.