The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[En.Ee.Oh]

John#'s going in in this discussion.

 

[WindMajor]

However, I can tell you that there is going to be an update very soon that most of you will enjoy :D

Btw I'm totally ready for this.

DON'T KEEP ME WAITING!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tesh]

They are banning frigate finally?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Sorry guys, crashboards messed up when we were gonna update, so it'll be happening soon :D

 

[Life]

Soon (tm)?

 

[Browny]

So I thought this was interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2KRTDv2mE0

Tell me, would that sort of blatant as **** sandbagging if done in brawl, warrant a yellow card?
"Intentional forfeiting, match fixing, splitting, and any other forms of bracket manipulation are not allowed and punishable by the TO."

no one cares because they didnt publically announce they were not playing 100% seriously. The difference of course being, they can play 100% seriously, but not 100% try to win the actual set. Who has the right to tell someone they did one or the other.

 

[Judo777]

So I thought this was interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2KRTDv2mE0

Tell me, would that sort of blatant as **** sandbagging if done in brawl, warrant a yellow card?
"Intentional forfeiting, match fixing, splitting, and any other forms of bracket manipulation are not allowed and punishable by the TO."

no one cares because they didnt publically announce they were not playing 100% seriously. The difference of course being, they can play 100% seriously, but not 100% try to win the actual set. Who has the right to tell someone they did one or the other.

Don't know anything about Melee whats wrong with that set?

 

[Tesh]

remember when we talked about homing attack stalling? and then we found out opponents can control where sonic moves?

Well is homing attack stalling legal on stages with walls?

 

[Judo777]

remember when we talked about homing attack stalling? and then we found out opponents can control where sonic moves?

Well is homing attack stalling legal on stages with walls?

Actually you can't control where sonic is moving, but neither can he. And I already know what your thinking and it would be under the category of putting sonic in an impossible to reach spot.

 

[Blacknight99923]

In the socal tournament scene metaknight isn't really a problem until we see ranked matches in which case theres almost always a metaknight involved.

Then I only see MK dittos when
A. havok loses as snake (well to be fair he mained MK beforehand)
B. Larry doesn't want to play gay against metaknight (he'd also go IC's now days)
C. Someone picked rainbow


seeing every set revolving around metaknight gets annoying

 

[Browny]

Don't know anything about Melee whats wrong with that set?

You dont know who scorpion master actually is?

 

[Tesh]

Actually you can't control where sonic is moving, but neither can he. And I already know what your thinking and it would be under the category of putting sonic in an impossible to reach spot.

You sure about that? Its even MORE arguably "just camping" in the situation I'm talking about. Its also a spot every single character in the game can reach, and possibly survive too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Don't know anything about Melee whats wrong with that set?

Scorpion Master (Mango) is arguably the best player in the world when he uses his mains. He was very obviously sand-bagging by picking Mario.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh, that was Mango? THAT makes sense.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Actually you can't control where sonic is moving, but neither can he. And I already know what your thinking and it would be under the category of putting sonic in an impossible to reach spot.

The radius for sonic's homing attack is like...half the length of FD (Horizontal). Somebody could move him one way or the other by standing near above him, and they would go towards him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ESAM, waiting to see this.

I don't really have a preference as to how stage legality is handled, but I'd like more consistency either way. I would also like a clear, concise statement in regards to how stage legality was decided so that when we argue about which stages should or shouldn't be legal, we're arguing over the same things.

I also want to say (even though I guess no one cares) that I think the Unity Ruleset is overall a great thing and that you guys are doing a bang-up job.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So you guys want like...how we decide things or why?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Right now, there are two arguments happening:

1. What stages qualify as good starters, and
2. What stage qualities make good starters.

These seem like the same discussion, but actually aren't. Ideology is a useful thing of course, but I'd like to know what the BBR-RC's collective ideology is so that when we talk about which stages qualify as starters we know what qualities to talk about.

What qualities make for a good starter or counter-pick, or even which qualities make for a banned stage is a different (but useful) discussion.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

ESAM, waiting to see this.

I don't really have a preference as to how stage legality is handled, but I'd like more consistency either way. I would also like a clear, concise statement in regards to how stage legality was decided so that when we argue about which stages should or shouldn't be legal, we're arguing over the same things.

I also want to say (even though I guess no one cares) that I think the Unity Ruleset is overall a great thing and that you guys are doing a bang-up job.

I was under the impression that there was no consistency because it was basically just decided via committee, with no real criteria beyond "we want it this way". Not that that's necessarily a bad thing (OK, I personally think it is, but it's a small evil tbh), but...

 

[Tesh]

So ESAM, would you say its legal to homing attack stall in the crevices under frigate on the 2nd transformation? Its not permanent.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

is there any way we can be let in on what say 2-3 stages are being considered to replace pictochat on the cp list?

 

[Tesh]

Its not about replacing stages or keeping certain number. Its about whats fit for competitive play. Just because something was removed doesn't mean something needs to be added.

 

[ErikG]

It says version 1.1 in the OP instead of 1.2

 

[Player-1]

I played a 6 minute match on frigate once where it didn't turn at all.




It was gay.

 

[Reizilla]

I played two 6 minute matches on Norfair, back to back and lava plumes didn't come out at all. They showed up on the third match.

 

[Judo777]

Man I have argued this so much lol. Sonic doesn't actually have to home in on you in order to homing attack stall. Before he moves in any direction (including if he doesn't home in at all) he moves up and can bounce off the ceiling. In fact if sonic IS required to home in on you, a well timed spotdodge/airdodge/intangible invincibilty will straight up kill him. So ESAM his homing attack radius is irrelevant because a knowledgeable player will be forcing him to do it without homing on anyone everytime.

And Tesh your referring to second phase of frigate in the little pocket under the stage right? Sheik cannot get under there and live (I have tried on many occaisions to wall cling there for fun). Neither can Mario or alot of characters with shorter recovery.

Wait I'm dumb i forgot the stage transforms lol. I could be wrong but I can't see sonic surviving the transformation from second to first phase since in order to survive a HA off stage you MUST be touching the ceiling BEFORE take off (I refer to the initial rise as sonics little rise before he moves and take off as his action of zipping one direction, keep in mind that he moves up EVEN AFTER initial rise at the beginning of take off regardless of which direction he takes off to)

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

and most of the community thinks that there are other perfectly good stages to replace picto with that should be there. im not dumb bro, i know it's about having good sound stages, i just know for a fact that are good sound stages that aren't legal that very well should be and are being discussed. i personally just want to know what 3 they are considering.

@judo,
then it's a bad MU. get secondary with wings or something

 

[T-block]

Man I have argued this so much lol. Sonic doesn't actually have to home in on you in order to homing attack stall. Before he moves in any direction (including if he doesn't home in at all) he moves up and can bounce off the ceiling. In fact if sonic IS required to home in on you, a well timed spotdodge/airdodge/intangible invincibilty will straight up kill him. So ESAM his homing attack radius is irrelevant because a knowledgeable player will be forcing him to do it without homing on anyone everytime.

And Tesh your referring to second phase of frigate in the little pocket under the stage right? Sheik cannot get under there and live (I have tried on many occaisions to wall cling there for fun). Neither can Mario or alot of characters with shorter recovery.

But the direction he bounces AFTER hitting the ceiling is determined by his opponent's relative position.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Right now, there are two arguments happening:

1. What stages qualify as good starters, and
2. What stage qualities make good starters.

These seem like the same discussion, but actually aren't. Ideology is a useful thing of course, but I'd like to know what the BBR-RC's collective ideology is so that when we talk about which stages qualify as starters we know what qualities to talk about.

What qualities make for a good starter or counter-pick, or even which qualities make for a banned stage is a different (but useful) discussion.

Honestly...there are a bunch of different opinions in the BRC. I am one that believes in a playing field that doesn't randomly give one party an advantage over the other (Such as random events) or one that has a permanent obstacle that can disrupt matches (Such as walls/slants/walk-offs). Temporaries of these things are O.K. in my book, since in most cases they can just be waited out. For example, on Castle Siege (which I believe should be starter) you can wait out the 2nd transformation if you don't like walk-offs, and you can wait out the fire/rock transformations on PS1 if you don't like walls. I don't honestly know the overall ideology of everybody. Sorry about that, we don't exactly have a thread that discusses our overall ideologies.

I was under the impression that there was no consistency because it was basically just decided via committee, with no real criteria beyond "we want it this way". Not that that's necessarily a bad thing (OK, I personally think it is, but it's a small evil tbh), but...

Well yes, we do end up voting on it, but we have a discussion period before-hand, which ranges from 3-6 weeks, but multiple discussions happen at one time, which results in the relatively frequent updates we have been doing. We are also doing things for the community's best interest, or what we believe it is, so we won't be doing things like making FD the only neutral or adding Distant Planet, Pirate Ship, Norfair, Green Greens, and Japes all in one shot, y'know? If anything, we will do changes slowly so that the community can get used to it, and then progress to the new step (EX: we now have 5 starters. The next step, if anything, would be to make it a 7 starters, even if we all preferred a 9 starter stage list, just so that the community could adjust for a while before the next change).

So ESAM, would you say its legal to homing attack stall in the crevices under frigate on the 2nd transformation? Its not permanent.

I would consider it stalling. Other TOs might not see it the same way. It is open to interpretation, which sucks, but that is the only feasible way we can do it.

is there any way we can be let in on what say 2-3 stages are being considered to replace pictochat on the cp list?

Its not about replacing stages or keeping certain number. Its about whats fit for competitive play. Just because something was removed doesn't mean something needs to be added.

That

 

[Judo777]

But the direction he bounces AFTER hitting the ceiling is determined by his opponent's relative position.

I have been told that this is false and tbh I don't see why it would be true. Sonic is not homing in on you he is simply bouncing as if no one were there. Also I have tested this a decent amount and there really seems to be no correlation between which way sonic goes if he homes in on you or not. (Assuming he is always doing the one where he is touching the ceiling before take off, which he has to do or he risks dying).

Not to mention its also harder to test because sonic can turnaround B his homing attack.

Also Marahaba if thats the case the same can be said about all planking and scrooging in general. Its a bad MU pick MK so you can deal with it.

 

[Tesh]

Its only broken in some matchups, just like DDD dthrow. It should be allowed.

 

[Judo777]

Its only broken in some matchups, just like DDD dthrow. It should be allowed.

But at least for the duration of the transformation it is completely unstoppable for some characters. The question would be if the fact that it only takes place on one transformation is broken. I don;t actually know where I stand on that.

 

[Tesh]

certain matchups on a certain stage during a certain phase

 

[T-block]

I have been told that this is false and tbh I don't see why it would be true. Sonic is not homing in on you he is simply bouncing as if no one were there. Also I have tested this a decent amount and there really seems to be no correlation between which way sonic goes if he homes in on you or not. (Assuming he is always doing the one where he is touching the ceiling before take off, which he has to do or he risks dying).

Not to mention its also harder to test because sonic can turnaround B his homing attack.

Also Marahaba if thats the case the same can be said about all planking and scrooging in general. Its a bad MU pick MK so you can deal with it.

I tested it myself, in response to discussion in this thread not long ago, and the results are fairly conclusive.

Turnaround doesn't matter.

Go to PS1. Put Mario on the left side of the stage, standing by the ledge. HA stall under the right side of the stage. Note that he always stays in the corner, and never bounces towards the right side. Continue until you're convinced nothing else will happen.

Move Mario to the right side of the stage, standing by the ledge. HA will bounce him towards the right.

 

[Judo777]

I tested it myself, in response to discussion in this thread not long ago, and the results are fairly conclusive.

Turnaround doesn't matter.

Go to PS1. Put Mario on the left side of the stage, standing by the ledge. HA stall under the right side of the stage. Note that he always stays in the corner, and never bounces towards the right side. Continue until you're convinced nothing else will happen.

Move Mario to the right side of the stage, standing by the ledge. HA will bounce him towards the right.

I just tested also and my results are strange. Firstly if sonic does not home in on you he seems to always go a certain direction depending on which way he is facing. So if he never homes in on you he can go back and forth by turning around his homing attack. However once you are in range for him to home in on you (or if you don't spotdodge) he seems to go in a random direction. I got all ranges of motions from both sides once i moved within range on PS1 and PS2. The issue with putting Mario on one side of the whole stage is that it is too far for sonic to home in on him so he will continue in one direction depending on which way he is facing. So I suppose I was mistaken by saying you can't control his motion. You can make his motion random by moving within range but I didn't see any specfic direction correlation.

 

[T-block]

Actually, I forgot to mention I did see weird results when the opponent was close.

The homing range is huge though. It's about the length of Smashville in diameter.

So what happens if you have Mario on the left, you are under the right side, but are facing to the right? You still end up going to the right?

 

[Judo777]

Actually, I forgot to mention I did see weird results when the opponent was close.

The homing range is huge though. It's about the length of Smashville in diameter.

So what happens if you have Mario on the left, you are under the right side, but are facing to the right? You still end up going to the right?

Within range or not? If you are not sonic can turnaround and go the other way. Also the biggest problem with this is that in order to kill sonic without going offstage you have to spotdodge or essentially make him not home on you if hes not touching the ceiling. But in doing so you give sonic control if he is touching the ceiling so its a trade off. Not to mention sonic can drift a little in between homing attacks. So mixing up spotdodges and letting him home you for a random bounce and his ability to drift seems like its relatively unstoppable.

 

[T-block]

Put yourself against a lvl 1 CPU and see if you can stall under PS1 indefinitely.

I wasn't able to do it.

 

[Tesh]

Why doesnt AiB ladder use Unity ruleS?

 

[Judo777]

Put yourself against a lvl 1 CPU and see if you can stall under PS1 indefinitely.

I wasn't able to do it.

But PS1 is shaped funny..... lol i'll try on a normal stage.

Did it for 5 minutes straight on FD then got bored lol