The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Player-1]

I agree with that, I don't want to see like 10 rules JUST for MK, but I think a couple are fine.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I like how you think the people complaining about MK have more than a small effect on the people in the BBR-RC that know better.

I am telling you guys now, that until some insurmountable evidence shows

We will NOT be banning Brinstar
We will NOT be banning Rainbow Cruise
We will NOT be banning Metkanight

However, I can tell you that there is going to be an update very soon that most of you will enjoy :D

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying either...Also i don't really understand your analogy, I admit I might be missing that point, but I don't see the relevance in it...? What I was saying is that there's only 2 stages that clearly stand out more than the rest for Diddy/Falco/ICs which are FD and SV. All of the bans go into FD from those characters as, while Falco/Diddy/ICs are all splitting up their bans between brinstar, rainbow cruise, delfino, frigate, green greens, norfair, etc.

...And that should be moderately telling. I also went over why this doesn't matter as much as you think it does.

Now, one argument I've been hearing a lot is, "it's not fair to compare FD to Brinstar, RC, or Norfair; after all, the three had many of the "anti-MK bans" split between them. It doesn't matter as much as you think that the stage bans are "split" between them, though. We're forgetting that different characters have different problems with different stages. Like sonic, who loves RC and Norfair but is awful on Brinstar. Or Snake and DDD, who are solid on RC, but bad on the other two. Or Wario, who loves Brinstar and Norfair but doesn't do fantastically on RC. Or Link and Ganon, who love Brinstar and Norfair, but hate RC... You get the point? You can't simplify it that easily. RC, Brinstar, and Norfair, while they do cater to MK somewhat, are all very, very different stages with different matchups and different dynamics.

But hey, we don't have to compare FD to Brinstar. After all, we're going for "not a starter" not "absolutely stupid counterpick". How about Halberd? After all, it's on a totally different line from RC/etc.; MK doesn't really like it there that much, especially against Snake, Wario, and other good vertical killers.
FD blew it out of the water in both stage bans and times counterpicked.
Green Greens, a stage that was claimed potentially broken and also kinda sucks for MK? Same deal; FD destroyed it in both categories!
Pictochat; a virtual FD 2.0 for many characters (and with a similar relationship to FD as Brinstar has to Norfair and RC)... Less than 50 bans! As if they'd rather ban FD...

And either way, that's still ignoring that the stage is virtually an auto-ban for several cast members, including G&W (the new "arguably even" with MK), Wario, Peach (borderline viable), and several others. To claim that the data is skewed that far out of proportion simply because Norfair, Brinstar, and RC had to share a stagelist is ridiculous.

Doesn't really matter as much as you think.

I think you seem to think that FD is some super amazing stage that gives Falco/ICs/Diddy some super amazing advantage where it's like Falco/ICs/Diddy to FD is the same as MK to brinstar or something. Which it isn't.

I'm not claiming that. I'm claiming that it is a serious advantage (comparable to MK on Frigate or Delfino). That said, I kinda agree with ESAM... RC is not that amazing for MK if you play it right. >.>

I'll use Diddy as an example since I know that character best. There's 2 reasons why Diddy likes FD 1. No platforms to hurt banana gameplay and 2. It's larger than any other starter. Platforms aren't even that big of a problem in the first place for Diddy it just helps with some minor things like it not taking 1 fourth of a second to jump up and z catch the banana. FD is only slightly larger than SV also. Characters can still have not that bad of a chance on winning on a stage like FD. FD isn't a "potent" CP, it's just the best one for those characters.

"Isn't a potent CP" and "the best stage for a character"... Hmm, something not quite adding up here.

Look, I get that it doesn't help them as much in most matchups as RC or Brinstar helps MK. But you really should realize that that doesn't mean quite as much as you think. The average "median of bias" for a character like diddy or falco against MK in a moderate stagelist comes out to around LC or Halberd. These are not exactly good stages for that character. By picking FD, you're still getting a very strong advantage.

FD is just SV with some minor advantages (it even has some disadvantages for those characters) and people still beat these characters on SV. Everyone always bans FD against these characters so I can't really bring any good real life examples into the argument, but seriously these characters get THAT much of an advantage from SV to FD.

SV is also known to be really, really good for diddy, ICs, and Falco. This is not news. In fact, I'm not the only one here who believes that if there was a second stage ban at MLG, SV would've gotten a similar number of stage bans to FD.

 

[Player-1]

I like how you think the people complaining about MK have more than a small effect on the people in the BBR-RC that know better.

Is that directed at me? Cuz I don't :3

However, I can tell you that there is going to be an update very soon that most of you will enjoy :D

olimar banned?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It was directed at mysterious silver.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I agree with that, I don't want to see like 10 rules JUST for MK, but I think a couple are fine.

Right now we have the LGL, Infinite Cape Glitch, and if the OP in http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304156 is to be believed, a con of Full Stage Striking is that (in this "less biased" environment, keep in mind) he would have a stronger advantage. Problems with Scrooging have been discussed, but I think it was settled that it fell under stalling anyways so it didn't matter.

I'm not proposing we ban him, I'm not proposing we let him run free. I'm just saying every time you change a rule for one member of the cast, you're stepping in a scary direction.

Edit:

I like how you think the people complaining about MK have more than a small effect on the people in the BBR-RC that know better.

I don't, really, just offering up my two cents. I should hope BBR at least takes community opinion into consideration, anyways. Irrelevant if I'm the only person complaining though, I suppose.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Posted twice, wasn't thinking.

 

[Player-1]

...And that should be moderately telling. I also went over why this doesn't matter as much as you think it does.



Doesn't really matter as much as you think.

Again, I don't really get the point to the quote? I mean I agree with some of the stuff you say in there, but I don't see how it is helping your argument

I'm not claiming that. I'm claiming that it is a serious advantage (comparable to MK on Frigate or Delfino). That said, I kinda agree with ESAM... RC is not that amazing for MK if you play it right. >.>

I think FD is pretty much the equivalent to MK on Lylat, if you want to make FD a CP then let's make Lylat one too. This argument just turns into a personal opinion on where the line is.

"Isn't a potent CP" and "the best stage for a character"... Hmm, something not quite adding up here.

po·tent1    
[poht-nt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
powerful; mighty: a potent fighting force.

A stage can be the best for a character without it being completely broken for them. I mean I agree it is a powerful CP compared to all of the other stages, but overall it's not THAT powerful.

Look, I get that it doesn't help them as much in most matchups as RC or Brinstar helps MK. But you really should realize that that doesn't mean quite as much as you think. The average "median of bias" for a character like diddy or falco against MK in a moderate stagelist comes out to around LC or Halberd. These are not exactly good stages for that character. By picking FD, you're still getting a very strong advantage.



SV is also known to be really, really good for diddy, ICs, and Falco. This is not news. In fact, I'm not the only one here who believes that if there was a second stage ban at MLG, SV would've gotten a similar number of stage bans to FD.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, SV is a good stage for those characters, but you still see those characters losing on these stages pretty often.

in read 10 chars

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...You do know that answering posts like that makes it very, very annoying to address your points, right?

 

[Player-1]

nope, but it's not my problem so I don't really care.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm telling you to reformat your post.

 

[Player-1]

no thanks.

edit: I'm a nice guy actually so I decided to help you:

...And that should be moderately telling. I also went over why this doesn't matter as much as you think it does.



Doesn't really matter as much as you think.

Again, I don't really get the point to the quote? I mean I agree with some of the stuff you say in there, but I don't see how it is helping your argument

I'm not claiming that. I'm claiming that it is a serious advantage (comparable to MK on Frigate or Delfino). That said, I kinda agree with ESAM... RC is not that amazing for MK if you play it right. >.>

I think FD is pretty much the equivalent to MK on Lylat, if you want to make FD a CP then let's make Lylat one too. This argument just turns into a personal opinion on where the line is.

"Isn't a potent CP" and "the best stage for a character"... Hmm, something not quite adding up here.

po·tent1    
[poht-nt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
powerful; mighty: a potent fighting force.

A stage can be the best for a character without it being completely broken for them. I mean I agree it is a powerful CP compared to all of the other stages, but overall it's not THAT powerful.

Look, I get that it doesn't help them as much in most matchups as RC or Brinstar helps MK. But you really should realize that that doesn't mean quite as much as you think. The average "median of bias" for a character like diddy or falco against MK in a moderate stagelist comes out to around LC or Halberd. These are not exactly good stages for that character. By picking FD, you're still getting a very strong advantage.



SV is also known to be really, really good for diddy, ICs, and Falco. This is not news. In fact, I'm not the only one here who believes that if there was a second stage ban at MLG, SV would've gotten a similar number of stage bans to FD.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, SV is a good stage for those characters, but you still see those characters losing on these stages pretty often.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

"I think FD is pretty much the equivalent to MK on Lylat, if you want to make FD a CP then let's make Lylat one too. This argument just turns into a personal opinion on where the line is."

This is stupid, I'm sorry. It's not a personal opinion at all.

There are two ways to measure the relative potency of a stage as a counterpick. The first is median of bias via striking. That is, you take every stage in the stagelist for a matchup, and start striking, one stage at a time. Given ideal striking, the point where a stage is struck is a good indicator for its bias in a matchup. For example, if you compare FD to LC in the MK-Diddy matchup...
MK strikes FD
Diddy strikes Brinstar
MK strikes SV
Diddy strikes RC
MK strikes BF
Diddy strikes frigate
MK strikes YI
Diddy strikes Halberd
MK strikes PS1
Diddy strikes Delfino
MK strikes PS2
Diddy strikes Lylat Cruise

...Oh look. FD is the first strike by one of the characters, and LC is the last strike by the other. Very, very fair comparison. Now, I admit, this method can be easily skewed by a number of high-powered counterpicks for one character that do not represent the majority of the stages (think Falco vs. Marth if Mario Circuit and Eldin were legal), but at that point it really comes down to what criteria matter to you, plus you have the added element that usually, when a character has a disproportionate matchup on some high-power stages, they will often have a thoroughly "meh" matchup on most of the rest. However, these imperfections are part of why I find the second method so convincing...

The second way is via the mean potency of the stage via matchup bias. Essentially, you measure a matchup over all legal stages, find the mean average of those values, and then go for the stage closest to that mean average. This essentially requires that the BBR Matchup Chart go from 40*40 matchups to 40*40*20 matchups; it's basically data we do not have. I feel safe in saying that for the MK-Diddy matchup, however, FD is not anywhere near the mean when compared to LC. Not even close. LC would, again, be close to the actual mean. FD would probably be closer to Frigate or Delfino.

If you take issue with the methodology, please let me know...

"Yeah that's what I'm saying, SV is a good stage for those characters, but you still see those characters losing on these stages pretty often."

Maybe they aren't good characters?

 

[AlphaZealot]

You know there is a lot of arguing in circles going on, right?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...Really? I don't see it. I see new arguments based on new data cropping up, new refutations appearing, and those refutations being brutally crushed.

 

[Player-1]

Yes it is a personal opinion.

I've already went through the first thing. Just because there are a lot of better stages for MK Vs Diddy than there are good stages for Diddy Vs MK it doesn't make the stage any more potent. Depending on the ruleset we can add or take away stages and that already deviates from the actual results. So in essence it means just because we add norfair to the stage list it would skew the results, but that doesn't make lylat any more or less potent in the MU at all. But like yous aid, that method is flawed. That method just shows the general trend, it doesn't mean it's the cause. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

I really don't know what some of the stuff you're saying in the 2nd way so I can't really give an accurate analysis over it, Like I don't know the 40*40 thing you're talking about, I ave no clue what that means. But MU ratios are again opinion (which you said it's not personal opinion in the first sentence). If you don't think MU ratios aren't personal opinion then...I really just don't know what to say. I'm not sure if you have a typo or something here, but:


"I feel safe in saying that for the MK-Diddy matchup, however, FD is not anywhere near the mean when compared to FD. Not even close. LC would, again, be close to the actual mean. FD would probably be closer "

FD not compared to FD? Then you say FD isn't close to the mean then again you say FD is closer to the mean? That sounds like a typo or something, if not then IDK what you're trying to say.

If you don't think Diddy/Falco/ICs are good characters then you're just dumb. I don't know what you're trying to say that characters CPed MK to stages like RC and brinstar or beating top palyers because I don't think I ever said or implied that...? But if you want to get on the subject then I have seen people CP MKs to that stage, usually they don't win, but I've seen it.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Wait wut

Can't compare a stage to itself? I guess a typo, maybe he meant LC?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yes it is a personal opinion.

I've already went through the first thing. Just because there are a lot of better stages for MK Vs Diddy than there are good stages for Diddy Vs MK it doesn't make the stage any more potent. Depending on the ruleset we can add or take away stages and that already deviates from the actual results. So in essence it means just because we add norfair to the stage list it would skew the results, but that doesn't make lylat any more or less potent in the MU at all. But like yous aid, that method is flawed. That method just shows the general trend, it doesn't mean it's the cause. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

It's still decent for getting a ballpark estimate. Also, that norfair comment? Completely irrelevant. With this method we are assuming that we already know what our legal (competitively viable) stages are. This method works regardless of if that pool is 3 stages or 30; it'll just provide different results each time... The way it's supposed to. After all, the median stage for Diddy-MK is very different if the legal stages are Norfair, Brinstar, Delfino, RC, and Frigate!

I really don't know what some of the stuff you're saying in the 2nd way so I can't really give an accurate analysis over it, Like I don't know the 40*40 thing you're talking about, I ave no clue what that means. But MU ratios are again opinion (which you said it's not personal opinion in the first sentence). If you don't think MU ratios aren't personal opinion then...I really just don't know what to say.

Matchup ratios are solid statistical data. At the moment, we don't really have a good way of collecting them. Doesn't make the theoretical construct less valid. Then again, I don't know what I'm arguing about anyways; if you don't understand the method, then there's no point trying to explain it further.

I'm not sure if you have a typo or something here, but:


"I feel safe in saying that for the MK-Diddy matchup, however, FD is not anywhere near the mean when compared to FD. Not even close. LC would, again, be close to the actual mean. FD would probably be closer "

FD not compared to FD? Then you say FD isn't close to the mean then again you say FD is closer to the mean? That sounds like a typo or something, if not then IDK what you're trying to say.

Yes, that was a typo.

If you don't think Diddy/Falco/ICs are good characters then you're just dumb.

They're good. They're also worse. No contradiction there. Believe it or not, a character performing not just well, but amazingly well on a stage which is otherwise completely legitimate for competition (MK on Brinstar, for example) is a positive character trait. Similarly, not having such a counterpick is a negative trait. Not a hard concept to grasp, really.

 

[Player-1]

"

There are two ways to measure the relative potency of a stage as a counterpick.

Meaning how good, how powerful of a stage as a CP is. This is dependent on characters and playstyles.

It's still decent for getting a ballpark estimate. Also, that norfair comment? Completely irrelevant. With this method we are assuming that we already know what our legal (competitively viable) stages are. This method works regardless of if that pool is 3 stages or 30; it'll just provide different results each time... The way it's supposed to. After all, the median stage for Diddy-MK is very different if the legal stages are Norfair, Brinstar, Delfino, RC, and Frigate!



Matchup ratios are solid statistical data. At the moment, we don't really have a good way of collecting them. Doesn't make the theoretical construct less valid. Then again, I don't know what I'm arguing about anyways; if you don't understand the method, then there's no point trying to explain it further.




Yes, that was a typo.



They're good. They're also worse. No contradiction there. Believe it or not, a character performing not just well, but amazingly well on a stage which is otherwise completely legitimate for competition (MK on Brinstar, for example) is a positive character trait. Similarly, not having such a counterpick is a negative trait. Not a hard concept to grasp, really.

If you add/subtract stages then it will change the results of the "potency of a stage as a couunterpick". Which shouldn't be. Just because you add/subtract stages it doesn't mean that some other stage's potency magically becomes better/worse. The median thing would just show the show the most agreeable stage between the two players, not necessarily how potent of a CP it is. So my Norfair example still stands. If I put norfair somewhere in the mix then lylat cruise and FD would grow farther away from each other, but it doesn't make lylat/fd any more potent than it already is.

MU ratios that WE create are just an opinion, there's no real way to measure exactly what the actual MU ratio is, although it does exist and it's fact. There's just no real accurate way to determine the exact MU ratio between two characters. I understand the mean thing, I just don't know what the 40*40 and 40*40*20 mean.


They're worse? Worse than what? I don't even know where you're going with this...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If you add/subtract stages then it will change the results of the "potency of a stage as a couunterpick". Which shouldn't be. Just because you add/subtract stages it doesn't mean that some other stage's potency magically becomes better/worse. The median thing would just show the show the most agreeable stage between the two players, not necessarily how potent of a CP it is. So my Norfair example still stands. If I put norfair somewhere in the mix then lylat cruise and FD would grow farther away from each other, but it doesn't make lylat/fd any more potent than it already is.

EVERYTHING IS SUBJECTIVE.

Imagine everything this side of Delfino did not exist. That is, there was no stage more liberal than Delfino. Delfino would become the new brinstar, because relatively speaking, it's still stupidly good! I'll write a real refutation later...

 

[Reizilla]

Thread sucks.

None of you are doing yourselves any good.

I suggest "creating tournaments" with 80+ "players" and "use" the Unity Ruleset and then say you're awesome because you did so, then get admitted to the BBR-RC so you can talk down to people and act like you're a powerful person.

Alternatively, you could move to an overpopulated city and host real tournaments.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

+1 to qB .

 

[Player-1]

There definitely wouldn't be as much people complaining about Delfino than Brinstar if Delfinio was the most liberal stage lolz.

 

[John12346]

Glargh thread's moving too fast for me.

P1, let's just leave our thing at a stalemate, because everything we've been arguing with each other is completely subjective, and tbh, everything we say can be responded to quite easily with, "I think you're wrong," which is what we've been doing so far. -___ -;

If you want to revisit the "MK on RC with intent to timeout is or isn't broken" argument, start by showing some video evidence, because we can make more detailed conclusions about the legitimacy of either of our claims rather than making broad sweeping assumptions...
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And just for the record, BPC is asking you to multiquote, because when you quote someone, any and all quotes in that post gets removed, and it makes it harder and more annoying for people to respond to you, especially if you put your answers INSIDE a quote.

Basically, format your responses to other people like this:

Thread sucks.

Response.

None of you are doing yourselves any good.

Response.

I suggest "creating tournaments" with 80+ "players" and "use" the Unity Ruleset and then say you're awesome because you did so, then get admitted to the BBR-RC so you can talk down to people and act like you're a powerful person.

Response.

Alternatively, you could move to an overpopulated city and host real tournaments.

Response.

 

[DeLux]

P1, let's just leave our thing at a stalemate, because everything we've been arguing with each other is completely subjective, and tbh, everything we say can be responded to quite easily with, "I think you're wrong," which is what we've been doing so far. -___ -;

If you want to revisit the "MK on RC with intent to timeout is or isn't broken" argument, start by showing some video evidence, because we can make more detailed conclusions about the legitimacy of either of our claims rather than making broad sweeping assumptions...

I've agreed with most of what you've said so far John, but I used to play ICs so I'd obviously have bias issues on my part.

However, given the status quo of the rules inherently define MK as competitively sound for RC, the burden would be on you to bring video evidence/legitimate evidence to negate the current policy if the debate is to advance further, not the other way around :\

 

[John12346]

Well, M2k vs Brood comes to mind...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZWiDKTlIV8

More to come, I guess. Searching Youtube is a pain in the rump.

 

[Player-1]

1. Brood comes from japan where they only use like 3 stages or something, he doesn't know the stage that well.
2. I agree it's broken, but I don't agree that it's broken enough to be banned
3. You have to discuss your vids, obviously you're going to find some timeouts happening on RC.

edit: And I don't think vid really helps your case that much considering that Brood didn't know the stage well and the fact that he was olimar and M2K still barely timed him out

 

[ADHD]

Well, M2k vs Brood comes to mind...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZWiDKTlIV8

More to come, I guess. Searching Youtube is a pain in the rump.

I hate to tell you this, but mew2king has timed out everyone on practically every stage. Just yesterday he timed me out on battlefield, almost on smashville, and almost again on smashville.

The problem lies within the stupid character allowing for himself to have so much god damn air time that he almost never has to land on the stage, and can always DI to the ledge..

 

[John12346]

1. Brood comes from japan where they only use like 3 stages or something, he doesn't know the stage that well.
2. I agree it's broken, but I don't agree that it's broken enough to be banned
3. You have to discuss your vids, obviously you're going to find some timeouts happening on RC.

Woah woah woah woah

I'm not arguing to get RC banned, I'm just trying to argue that defensive MK's broken there! And now you're agreeing with me on that point!?

In that case, why are we arguing over this point...?

Also, that vid was the only one that came to mind off the top of my head. More searching would be required, but why am I bothering if you already agree with me, is the bigger question...?

 

[Player-1]

IDK I guess we disagree on some the stuff that make him broken. My whole arugment that I was making is that MK is a lot easier if you know the stage and definitely beatable on the stage.

 

[John12346]

Well, I agree it's a lot easier if you know how to fight MK and if you know the stage, but I guess we disagree on the output of skill required to actually do it... I think it's more while you think it's less. W/e.

And also seriously, l2multiquote someone's argument, it's a huge convenience for them when you do so.

 

[Player-1]

MK is a broken character in the first place, I'm not going to try to argue that RC suddenly makes him not broken.

 

[John12346]

So the disagreement is how much more broken we feel MK becomes on RC. You think it's a little, while I think it's a lot.

Or, to make a better comparison... you think MK on RC is analogous to MK on Delfino, while I think MK on RC is closer to MK on Brinstar.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Gonna say what Orion said here: it's MU dependent.

I'd rather have Delphino against Marth (as opposed to RC). (just an example)

 

[Player-1]

Well as a Diddy main I actually like Delfino so the closer stage would be Frigate, but yes that's the basic point

 

[Tesh]

Alot of the super gay stuff MK can do, can also be done by Pit. Though when you catch pit......he is Pit...

Pit can avoid combat pretty dang hard though on RC/Frigate.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, but Pit can be beaten. Pit also has some trouble killing.

Pit is one of two characters who needs to time characters out in several MUs to win, and it's still bad in them. (The other is Jigglypuff).

Metaknight doesn't need to time out to win his MUs, but it sure as hell makes them even easier.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

.... the only characters we "need" to time out are wario and..... um..... actually just wario. i mean ill ask the other pits what they think but honestly wario is the only character we literally NEED to time out that i can think of. using time out strategy is always a good thing for pit to do, but it is by no means absolutely necessary.

 

[Judo777]

No the big issue with trying to stop a camping pit as opposed to trying to stop a camping MK is a VERY important difference. Trying to stop a camping pit is the more basic catch up to pit and try to hit him while he is evading you and trying to do without getting hit too hard. Catching a running MK is more difficult because you have to catch the MK without actually going offstage (a place you are not allowed to be in that MU). And if MK himself is offstage I just have to say its VERY VERY hard to catch someone that you cannot be in the place as........

MK is offstage and you aren't allowed to go there so you have to try and get him when he eventually has to come back onstage (or risk dying stupid early). Pit you have to catch but you are actually allowed to be offstage versus pit because pit's gimping game isn't near as dangerous (mostly due to pit not having aerials that are both low startup AND cooldown and the general more upward trajectory they hit you).

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

No the big issue with trying to stop a camping pit as opposed to trying to stop a camping MK is a VERY important difference. Trying to stop a camping pit is the more basic catch up to pit and try to hit him while he is evading you and trying to do without getting hit too hard. Catching a running MK is more difficult because you have to catch the MK without actually going offstage (a place you are not allowed to be in that MU). And if MK himself is offstage I just have to say its VERY VERY hard to catch someone that you cannot be in the place as........

MK is offstage and you aren't allowed to go there so you have to try and get him when he eventually has to come back onstage (or risk dying stupid early). Pit you have to catch but you are actually allowed to be offstage versus pit because pit's gimping game isn't near as dangerous (mostly due to pit not having aerials that are both low startup AND cooldown and the general more upward trajectory they hit you).

this is a really good way to put it. honestly judo you summed up the differance between MK and Pit gimp wise really well. although being offstage against pit (with the exception of a few MUs) is still pretty dangerous gimp wise.

the only thing most people don't take into account (since it isn't really well known) on stages like RC and stuff where we are doing our wing refresh shenanigans to fight aerially is that we can footstool out of WOI and then do another WOI (we call it a wind spike). but yeah it is a little harder to gimp people compared to MK for the reasons judo listed, but nowadays we have been implementing a lot of footstool stuff both normally and out of WOI.

of course anyone can footstool for kills, it's just more of a threat with pit's recovery and jumps and the WOI wind effect. like seriously since pit doesn't have a actual spike, we have been really working footstool since that is the closest to a spike we are gonna get (bar conditional dtilt spike). yet what is funny is that..... mk is even more of a footstool threat since he has more jumps, they just don't abuse it as much since the have..... you know.... dair nair and shuttle loop.