The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[[FBC] ESAM]

Most characters have to strike Lylat against Metaknight, G&W, Wario, and Snake. Why do they get free passes?

 

[Tesh]

You guys are also dumb.

Almost every single MK banned FD almost every single time. (Remember, times played is multiple times per set)

Every single time somebody played an IC/Diddy/D3 main, they banned FD.

So yeah, shut up about that.

Okay so it gives the 4 ground camping characters closest to MK a decent shot, I get that, but it wasn't exactly fair to character similar to MK but worse. If its CLEARLY the worst stage for like 40% of the players, its not neutral on that ground either is it?

@ Lylat, thats hardly a big deal, its not like they have to spend strikes on RC or Brinstar, or even Delfino/Frigate. Lylat is hardly a **** MK stage if know how it works.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Tesh is a Ninja. I was gonna say they don't have several more stages in their favor on the neutrals list.

 

[Player-1]

I wasn't arguing the starter list, I was arguing FD...

 

[Tarmogoyf]

But if FD is many characters #1 CP, why should it be a starter?

We wouldn't put brinstar on there for the same reason.

 

[Player-1]

BF is many characters #1 CP

 

[Tesh]

Dang player 1, I was JUST about to say that in a sarcastic way. You ninja'd me from the other side of the argument.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Maybe everybody is CPing BF because FD gets banned so often?

(keep in mind this is more theory than anything)

 

[Player-1]

@tarm, it depends what ruleset we're talking about, I'm talking the unity ruleset. With other stages to choose from/ban like green greens, norfair, etc. some of the CPs and bans get influenced.




Reasoning behind FD and SV being the number 1 CP for most characters? How many stages have very minimal platforms/no platforms/platforms not covering the majority of the stage at all? 2, FD and SV. Most of the characters that benefit from this will be CPing one of those two stages...yes? Then characters that benefit from having platforms and such can choose from from an abundance of stages so those CPs will be split up more. If you have 2 democrats and 1 republican in an election then the republican will most likely win because the democrats votes are split up.

 

[BSP]

BPC ran through this FD thing: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=182056

All that being said, should FD be a starter? Most likely not. Will it remain one? My money is on yes.

And in regards to MLG matchslips, "counterpick" simply means played on after game 1 (correct me if I'm wrong). We can't really discern anything from the times counterpicked alone. We need to look at bans + times counterpicked to figure out how characters feel about each stage.

I.E.

smashville- #1 CP in MLG

But, Smashville was also the least banned stage. Putting those two together, it's probably safe to say no one really minds going to smashville, making it an excellent starter.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

This is an interesting point. While I believe these characters also favor BF (because it enhances their ability to camp significantly by limiting their opponents approach options)

I believe that these characters are looking for the stage that interferes with them least, making static stages most favorable.

You're right that it gets split up (bans of RC vs Brinstar?), yet it far less so for FD. It's basically everybody going after it for ground stages, whereas it's split for air ones.

 

[Tesh]

I think the important thing we FD naysayers should keep in mind is that FD is NOT as bad as Brinstar/RC. Lets say you have a range of numbers:
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15
Lets just say FD is "1" and Brinstar/RC are 14/15.

Now some folks might argue that 1,2,3,4 and 5 are the best numbers because they are all under 6.

Others, like BPC will show up and tell them that 1 is the FURTHEST thing we have available lower than 6, therefore its just as bad as the FURTHEST thing available higher than 6.

However in a situation like that, I'm saying that 1 thru 11 is a fine range of numbers to be fair to all lovers of high and low numbers.

Now I know this seems like a good bit of rambling to state a simple point, but I'm just a simple country boy in a big city.

I implore the rest of the stage rage crew to argue for something....more reasonable and less ideological.

On a site note about RC/Brinstar, if a stage is so obviously polar that you KNOW it could never be considered fair in anything other than a ditto matchup, I don't see how the stage should be legal at all. I can see alot of matchups going to alot of other stages in full stage striking, but Brinstar and RC similar to temple in a certain aspect imo. Just as ZSS might enjoy a match vs DDD on temple, she would hate it vs Falcon, and he would hate it vs Sonic/Fox. RC/Brinstar simply favor being good at one or two things to achieve victory.

 

[BSP]

I think the important thing we FD naysayers should keep in mind is that FD is NOT as bad as Brinstar/RC. Lets say you have a range of numbers:
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15
Lets just say FD is "1" and Brinstar/RC are 14/15.

Now some folks might argue that 1,2,3,4 and 5 are the best numbers because they are all under 6.

Others, like BPC will show up and tell them that 1 is the FURTHEST thing we have available lower than 6, therefore its just as bad as the FURTHEST thing available higher than 6.

However in a situation like that, I'm saying that 1 thru 11 is a fine range of numbers to be fair to all lovers of high and low numbers.

Now I know this seems like a good bit of rambling to state a simple point, but I'm just a simple country boy in a big city.

I implore the rest of the stage rage crew to argue for something....more reasonable and less ideological.

On a site note about RC/Brinstar, if a stage is so obviously polar that you KNOW it could never be considered fair in anything other than a ditto matchup, I don't see how the stage should be legal at all. I can see alot of matchups going to alot of other stages in full stage striking, but Brinstar and RC similar to temple in a certain aspect imo. Just as ZSS might enjoy a match vs DDD on temple, she would hate it vs Falcon, and he would hate it vs Sonic/Fox. RC/Brinstar simply favor being good at one or two things to achieve victory.

I'm not really worried about FD vs. RC/Brinstar. I would agree that the latter 2 are more extreme in terms of CP'ing.

But that still doesn't really help FD's numbers in terms of being a starter. It's no HUGE deal if it stays, but we do have better options for promoting a fair game 1

 

[Tesh]

I know, I just feel both sides seem to be wrong imo. FD and RC should not be starters in a 5 stage list. FD however would sit fine in a 9 or 7 stage starter list. The trouble I am seeing here is that half the legal stages favor aerial characters, but none of those are starters. And for this I DO blame metaknight. The community is afraid of anything that could theoretically give him an edge over the ground hugging character that give him a run for his money on their best stages. That IS bias, and we should be chasing the median of bias for game 1, not extreme bias against the stronger character. If that were not the case, then why not add a formal rule stating that "the lower tiered character gets to cp twice" if that is some way of balancing things.

Imo as far as a median of bias goes, if I am seeing ICs vs Metaknight, if MK has to strike FD, ICs should have to strike at LEAST Delfino/Frigate.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Or, we could just floss and not have to worry about guessing the medium of bias without variables like player bias.

 

[Player-1]

I really don't see how a 5 stage start list is bad as far as balance. You most likely go to BF, YI, or SV depending on how you strike. Diddys/Falco/ICs/etc. strike Lylat; MK/Wario/Marth/etc. strike FD. After that it's personal preference of what stage the players like, usually it's SV. People can just as easily go to YI and usually it's still a fairly close stage choice to SV in terms of not influencing the MU, but not many people like YI that much aside from lucario, sonic, dk mains. A lot of people perceive YI as a negative/negative and SV as a positive/positive. FD would be like a positive/negative. People tend to strike to a stage that hey like and their opponent like as opposed to a stage that both them and their opponent dislike, should we base the stage list off of that? No.

 

[ADHD]

Its still pretty ground heavy, but Ps1 is a more fair neutral fighting ground than FD.

Ohhhh.. I so disagree.

The transformations make certain matchups unfavorable for periods of time, and literally, the periods that the stage is transforming. Not to mention, the stage encourages stalling.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

you guys relize fd is good for more than just top tiers right? we got TL, fox, pit, rob, link, and samus. just saying that these characters would suffer a lot from having FD removed as a starter. especially the 2 with reflectors (pit, fox) who can force the approach even on falco with enough patience. so it's not just good for top tiers, just saying. (im out)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Did you just say that FD is a good Samus stage? Lol

She needs platforms to avoid getting completely ***** by her inability to deal with pressure.

 

[Player-1]

If PS1 didn't transform at all it would be the most fair starter IMO =/.

FD is a good Samus stage...not in some MUs it isn't I agree, but I think aside from ICs/Falco/Diddy it's pretty good for her, but platform stages are still good for her as well because she has great platform control, it just depends on the MU

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd say that it is a bad Samus stage in the majority of important match-ups.

Though it is a good stage for her in low tiers.

 

[Player-1]

I still disagree, I think that BF might be preferred in a good amount of MUs, but I don't see FD being bad for her in some of those MUs (MK for instance), but that's just me theorycrafting, I really don't know much about what actual Samus users would prefer.

 

[san.]

BF has some gay stuff you could do, but I feel like that since everybody can do it, almost all characters like the stage.

 

[BSP]

So, any thoughts on RC/Brinstar combo still standing?

 

[san.]

What characters are affected by the RC/Brinstar combo that aren't bad on those two stages?

 

[Player-1]

Learn one stage and ban the other. I'm a Diddy main and I feel just as comfortable on RC as a neutral, I know the stage VERY well. I was actually in the middle of typing a guide up but my laptop froze and it deleted all of my work so I basically said **** it. My region has pretty much given up on CPing me to RC for the most part and instead take me to Frigate or Delfino.

@San, the main argument is that MK is just too broken with those stages so against MK with those two stages it's actually quite a few of the cast. Diddy/Falco/ICs/D3/Snake all come to mind immediately (AGAINST MK), still I feel that you can learn at least one of the stages and just ban the other then it's not that big of a problem

 

[Tesh]

Ohhhh.. I so disagree.

The transformations make certain matchups unfavorable for periods of time, and literally, the periods that the stage is transforming. Not to mention, the stage encourages stalling.

Alot of stuff "encourages stalling". You can camp the SV platform pretty fiercely and over the course of the game, waste as much time as Ps1 does. Some matchups you can camp the hell out of the top platform on BF.

I really don't see how a 5 stage start list is bad as far as balance. You most likely go to BF, YI, or SV depending on how you strike. Diddys/Falco/ICs/etc. strike Lylat; MK/Wario/Marth/etc. strike FD. After that it's personal preference of what stage the players like, usually it's SV. People can just as easily go to YI and usually it's still a fairly close stage choice to SV in terms of not influencing the MU, but not many people like YI that much aside from lucario, sonic, dk mains. A lot of people perceive YI as a negative/negative and SV as a positive/positive. FD would be like a positive/negative. People tend to strike to a stage that hey like and their opponent like as opposed to a stage that both them and their opponent dislike, should we base the stage list off of that? No.

No one is really attacking SV, its a swell stage and its usually "the best you can do" in typical stage striking. If both players want to go to a stage, obviously its going to be okay regardless of how big or small the starter list is.



I'm really disappointed in how much this revolves around keeping MK "safe". The REST of the characters could be so much more balanced together if heavy restrictions were just put directly on MK without tip-toeing around it and nerfing ALL aerial characters and forming a stagelist around pulling MK down.

 

[Player-1]

Alot of stuff "encourages stalling". You can camp the SV platform pretty fiercely and over the course of the game, waste as much time as Ps1 does. Some matchups you can camp the hell out of the top platform on BF.



No one is really attacking SV, its a swell stage and its usually "the best you can do" in typical stage striking. If both players want to go to a stage, obviously its going to be okay regardless of how big or small the starter list is.



I'm really disappointed in how much this revolves around keeping MK "safe". The REST of the characters could be so much more balanced together if heavy restrictions were just put directly on MK without tip-toeing around it and nerfing ALL aerial characters and forming a stagelist around pulling MK down.

I was just getting ready for BPC...nah Jk

I was just trying to defend the 5 starter system we have now, I didn't feel a need to mention BF as it is agreed upon mostly by both sides of the argument to be a starter and I just implied lylat was pretty much the opposite of FD so I analyzed the other 3 stages.

I kind of agree with the 2nd statement, but even without MK in this game I still think the current stage list is fine, but I agree with restrictions being put on MK and just MK such as something like "You must state if you go MK before striking for the first game and if you do the other player gets to strike first" or "the non MK player always gets to choose port priority" or something along those lines (those are just examples, IDK if they're actually good ideas or not in general). People who give "If MK is broken enough to get these restrictions on him then he should be banned in the first place" argument really annoy me. I just don't get it, why ban a character when we could just as easily put restrictions on him without harming other cast members? It doesn't hurt anybody, and it just sounds like you only want MK banned because you hate playing against him, and if you're still giving that argument anyway then you're just shooting yourself in the foot because the MK ban isn't happening, that much is obvious, just take what you can get.

 

[DeLux]

I agree with restrictions being put on MK and just MK such as something like "You must state if you go MK before striking for the first game and if you do the other player gets to strike first" or .

The player already must state if they are going MK prior to game one because of the order of stage striking procedure:

Pick Characters > Strike Stage > Ban > Counter Pick Stage > Pick Characters > Ban > Counter Pick Stage > Pick Characters > etc.

That being said, that "restriction" isn't a restriction at all

 

[Grim Tuesday]

P1:

Because it is a double standard to do that to MK but not to anything else.

Why don't we let Ganondorf always start on Norfair? I mean, it doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[Tesh]

He should be banned, but he isnt going to be banned. At this point the best that can be done is to specifically nerf ONLY him. BRC is off to a good start acknowledging it with a special LGL for MK. I do feel that if we can put enforceable restrictions on him, there is no need to ban him. The trouble is that there is a habit of just blanketing his nerfs across the entire cast to avoid acknowledging the problem.

I actually don't mind the MK matchup personally. I HATE OLIMAR AND YOSHI THOUGH.

 

[Player-1]

The player already must state if they are going MK prior to game one because of the order of stage striking procedure:

Pick Characters > Strike Stage > Ban > Counter Pick Stage > Pick Characters > Ban > Counter Pick Stage > Pick Characters > etc.

That being said, that "restriction" isn't a restriction at all

oh my bad, I was actually thinking just the 2nd game thing of the rule and then thought "oh well that would break the order better include that part in there too then" so that was just a useless insert, but again I said that "those are just examples, IDK if they're actually good ideas or not in general".

@grim, 1. norfair is a bad stage (subjective post, but I don't want to get into another argument while I'm in the midst of another), 2. It hurts the characters versing ganon, especially low tiers, you could argue that my idea hurts mk (well it's suppose to, I just didn't include that in there >.>), but MK needs to be hurt, he's too broken, then you can argue that ganon needs a buff because he is that bad, but again, like I said before, that most likely won't happen so take what you can get and just nerf MK, and (if you think ganon needs that kind of buff) then argue it AFTER MK gets the nerf, your argument will only get stronger at that point.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I wish MK was banned long ago. **** would've been so much easier to deal with and ******* wouldn't be complaining about RC/Brinstar combo as if it was a big deal. People honestly need to learn RC, because Brinstar is clearly a better level for MK.

Boat: Just as good as neutrals. If he is going to scrooge: You wait.

Rising part: Either stay really low or go really high. MK's mobility isn't that good and his movements are extremely predictable. If you go all the way up he won't be able to do anything. If you stay below him he also won't be able to do much to you without risking quick death.

Pendulum part: Traverse between the blocks at the top and the black platform to its left. MK doesn't have an air grab, so shields are your friend. Wait until the platforms on the right spawn, move there immediately (But not obviously, you will get SL'd for that).

Side scrolling part: **** MK. Don't be scared of him. Know the platform configuration before it loops (Like how the bottom platform is just at the edge boundary, but you can still go on it).

Blarg, people are dumb @_@

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree, Brinstar is an AMAZING Meta Knight stage in almost every match-up, RC is pretty average most of the time unless you main a character that can't deal with air camping at all.

 

[Player-1]

ESAM is right on point with that. Also, you want to stay below or way above someone on that part all the time anyway, no matter the character. Same reasoning why you don't want to be on platforms right above your opponent.

 

[John12346]

ESAM, that breakdown has MK avoiding you or you avoiding MK at least 75% of the time of the stage.

On the boat transition, MK has a spot to Dtilt > Jab wall lock you, and the short blastzones on that transition don't help when you're dealing with aerial Shuttle Loop, a move with so much base knockback, it can sometimes kill even at 0.

On the rising area and the pendulum areas, MK is at sharking city. Sure, you can outrun him in some cases, but MK is calling ALL of the shots here. I can't even legitimately see any possible offenses you can take against him on these parts.

In addition to that, MK has some spots to hide right before the sidescrolling area begins, denoted by the area around A in the picture, and if he waits for a very large amount of time, he can spend very little time on the actual sidescroll area and move to point B in the picture.

Viola, a perfect time-out stage for MK.

 

[Player-1]

Lol at dtilt jab on the wall, just don't get next to the wall..problem solved and that doesn't even work unless you get locked. I haven't ever had a problem with the blastzones either, they don't feel much different than the average blastzone? As long as you stay below MK on the rising part of the stage then you actually call the shots, it's kind of like a game of chicken where it's the first one to get above the other without dieing to the blastone can get punished, but you can still get away depending on were you are on the stage, etc. To transition from point A to point B properly without getting into conflict MK has to take hoop damage.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

P1:

Because it is a double standard to do that to MK but not to anything else.

Why don't we let Ganondorf always start on Norfair? I mean, it doesn't hurt anyone.

you should get an award for giving the largest amount of the worst arguements.

first, "snake's utilt should be banned against jiggz if planking is restricted"

then whatever the hell else you were arguing with orion that time (im waaaayyyyy to lazy to look 4 it)

now this..... looooool



anyways, that aside, i agree that brinstar is raaaape for mk. also did anyone ever think that instead of just nerfing MK, we UN-nerf the other characters? you know, remove their lgl, give only non MKs a 2 stage strike (oh getting tricky. that there is a nerf on MK and a buff on others in one rule), open up a few more stages (*cough japes norfair GGs cough*)? im not necessarily saying use these exact examples, im just saying we gotta do something to even out this metagame for those of us who aren't MK mains

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You guys are also dumb.

Almost every single MK banned FD almost every single time. (Remember, times played is multiple times per set)

Every single time somebody played an IC/Diddy/D3 main, they banned FD.

So yeah, shut up about that.

You're ****ting me, right? ESAM, come on. >.> Did you even read what I posted? Like, the gigantic interpretation of the data that we have? Where I addressed a few very important things, like how even with MK gone, FD still has 16% of all stage bans, only 3% below Brinstar and a good bit above Frigate, Delfino, Halberd, Pictochat, and Green Greens? How 12/35 characters banning it more often than any other stage makes it more than an MK issue?

Please, please read the AiB thread.
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=182056

I go over basically everything; there is simply no excuse for having FD as a starter.

Ohhhh.. I so disagree.

The transformations make certain matchups unfavorable for periods of time, and literally, the periods that the stage is transforming. Not to mention, the stage encourages stalling.

You're stupid.

you guys relize fd is good for more than just top tiers right? we got TL, fox, pit, rob, link, and samus. just saying that these characters would suffer a lot from having FD removed as a starter. especially the 2 with reflectors (pit, fox) who can force the approach even on falco with enough patience. so it's not just good for top tiers, just saying. (im out)

You realize that FD is bad for more than just MK, right? We got Wario, G&W, Ness, ZSS, Ike... Just saying that these characters suffer a lot from having FD as a starter. Especially G&W and Ness, who absolutely lose on this stage. It's not just awful for MK, just saying.

Argument cuts both ways. In fact, get this: MK actually wrecks most of the above super hard on FD. Whodathunkit?

So, any thoughts on RC/Brinstar combo still standing?

1. Learn RC?
2. Second stage ban?

 

[John12346]

Lol at dtilt jab on the wall, just don't get next to the wall..problem solved and that doesn't even work unless you get locked. I haven't ever had a problem with the blastzones either, they don't feel much different than the average blastzone? As long as you stay below MK on the rising part of the stage then you actually call the shots, it's kind of like a game of chicken where it's the first one to get above the other without dieing to the blastone can get punished, but you can still get away depending on were you are on the stage, etc. To transition from point A to point B properly without getting into conflict MK has to take hoop damage.

In order:

The boat transition having a Dtilt Jab wall lock makes it far stronger than a neutral for MK. The opponent has to play a stupid keep away game which puts them dangerously close to the blastzones, or on the top of the boat(aka above MK), both of which are extremely disadvantageous spots for one to be against MK, with the threat of Air SL killing you too early off the sides, or simply getting Uair combo'd from below.

On the rising and pendulum phases of the stages, MK does call the shots because he can use his fifty thousand jumps, insane recovery, etc, to make SURE he stays above/below you, wherever he wants to be, to be honest. If you go high, MK gets to shark the living hell out of you. If you go low, MK goes high. If you try to chase, MK jumps off the stage, stalls, and goes high/low.

And MK is only going to take 2 or 3 points of hoop damage on the sidescrolling phase. Hoop damage accumulates really slowly, and you have to be really far deep off the screen to even take any. In addition, MK still has his air stalling jumps, glides, Nado, etc, which can allow him to make a bracket motion from A to B, going from bottom left, to top left, to top right, to point B, in any wonky fashion he chooses.