The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Judo777]

ESAM while alot of what you say about RC is true as far as how it should be played you also have to understand that you play like a top 3 total mobility in the game character.

By total mobility I mean "if you need to get to anywhere on the sceen, pika could on average get there at least 3rd fastest" only getting beaten by maybe both Sonic, and theory Yoshi (theory yoshi being one who can utilize all of his Dragonic Reverse techs which gives him pretty outstanding mobility).

Like it's not easy for some of the slower characters to continually escape and get to where they need to be to combat MK appropriately on certain parts. Sheik has great ground speed and incredible vertical speed but even she has trouble getting into the right spots to give MK trouble on that stage.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He should be banned, but he isnt going to be banned. At this point the best that can be done is to specifically nerf ONLY him. BRC is off to a good start acknowledging it with a special LGL for MK.

No...just...no. Don't ever mention this again.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

you should get an award for giving the largest amount of the worst arguements.

first, "snake's utilt should be banned against jiggz if planking is restricted"

then whatever the hell else you were arguing with orion that time (im waaaayyyyy to lazy to look 4 it)

now this..... looooool

You only think my arguments are stupid because your IQ isn't high enough to comprehend legitimate comparisons.

If my argument was so awful, surely you could point out a flaw in my reasoning quite easily? Cause I've yet to see one in theory (practice is a different matter, but even then...)

 

[ADHD]

You're stupid.

No, uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

 

[Player-1]

You're ****ting me, right? ESAM, come on. >.> Did you even read what I posted? Like, the gigantic interpretation of the data that we have? Where I addressed a few very important things, like how even with MK gone, FD still has 16% of all stage bans, only 3% below Brinstar and a good bit above Frigate, Delfino, Halberd, Pictochat, and Green Greens? How 12/35 characters banning it more often than any other stage makes it more than an MK issue?

Please, please read the AiB thread.
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=182056

I go over basically everything; there is simply no excuse for having FD as a starter.

I already explained as well that the bans are getting split up. FD and Lylat, I see, are pretty much the opposite ends of the spectrum as far as starters as in Diddy, Falco, ICs, etc. (I'll refer to this as the Diddy crew) like FD and dislike lylat. MK, Wario, Marth, etc. (I'll refer to this as the MK crew) like lylat and dislike FD. The Diddy crew doesn't ban lylat because there are far better stages to ban like RC, Brinstar, Frigate, etc. The MK crew will almost always ban FD because there aren't any other better stages than FD for them, but that doesn't prove that it's completely broken for them, it just means that there's no other stage to ban. If the only legal stage list was the normal 5-starter stages then you would most likely see as many lylat bans as FD bans.

In order:

The boat transition having a Dtilt Jab wall lock makes it far stronger than a neutral for MK. The opponent has to play a stupid keep away game which puts them dangerously close to the blastzones, or on the top of the boat(aka above MK), both of which are extremely disadvantageous spots for one to be against MK, with the threat of Air SL killing you too early off the sides, or simply getting Uair combo'd from below.

On the rising and pendulum phases of the stages, MK does call the shots because he can use his fifty thousand jumps, insane recovery, etc, to make SURE he stays above/below you, wherever he wants to be, to be honest. If you go high, MK gets to shark the living hell out of you. If you go low, MK goes high. If you try to chase, MK jumps off the stage, stalls, and goes high/low.

And MK is only going to take 2 or 3 points of hoop damage on the sidescrolling phase. Hoop damage accumulates really slowly, and you have to be really far deep off the screen to even take any. In addition, MK still has his air stalling jumps, glides, Nado, etc, which can allow him to make a bracket motion from A to B, going from bottom left, to top left, to top right, to point B, in any wonky fashion he chooses.

1. Stupid keep away game...? Lol what? THat's ridiculous, you do realize that MK's jab doesn't have that much reach and also you can't dash straight into a jab right? You have PLENTY of time to recover from dtilt>jab and like i said jab only locks if you get stage smacked, dtilt>jab without that can be SDIed out of. The only parts of the stage you shouldn't be at vs MK is on the right side and right next to the wall unless you're some certain characters (Diddy with bananas, snake with grenades are fairly safe against the wall). Meaning you have MORE THAN HALF OF THE BOAT to play on and still be safe DEPENDING ON THE CHARACTER YOU CAN HAVE MORE. LMAO @ you still going on about air SL still killing you at a low percent, RC blastzones are no worse than YI and if not then it's larger, if you're getting killed by that move at low percent then you just have bad DI. It's a bad spot to be at, I agree, but Uair can't hit you unless you're right next to the edge which is a stupid thing to do anyway, you should either just wait til the boat part ends or double jump or something and get back to the main part safely FROM THE EDGE. None of MK's moveset can reach you if you are close to the edge.


2. Uhhh...what? In case you didn't know having "fifty thousand jumps" doesn't keep the blast zone from coming up on you meaning your character can wait just as long as MK if you're playing the stage right. You have to make sure you take the right path (character and situational dependent) of which platforms to utilize on this part vs MK. MK's recovery? They're all too laggy to do any damage on you except for SL which isn't that big of a problem if you're below them or out of range above them. MK has one of the worst air mobility in the game, Wario is MUCH better at calling shots than MK on this part of the stage by far. If MK gets below you then you can go too high. It's because MK has five jumps that you can out run him verical wise, his mid air jumps don't have much height to them meaning you can get away fast enough with most of the cast. If you go low then MK goes high then you can either shark him or stay low and stall that part of the stage out. If you try to chase MK and he runs away then that's good most of the time, this part of the stage is MKs best part, IDK why he would try to stall this part out unless it's in the 3rd/4th cycle of the stage and it's obv it will go to time. He can capitalize on mistakes pretty hard here so he shouldn't be trying to stall it out too early in the game and try to capitalize on the moment.

3. MK can glide under the stage from point A to point B when the stage centers in on those 3 tetris blocks right before the semi circle slope. He'll take a good amount of hoop damage from this, especially if he chooses to stay by that wall (which will give hoop damage at that part of the stage) instead of coming back onto stage. The only thing he has done is made it so you are closer to the left blast zone than he is which can get passed by easily. He can't come back through the stage and stall because he will be trapped back up on the top part unless he takes a tetris block back down which is dumb to try to go for since it takes a good amount of time for the tetris block to fall down with the character, you can easily get him off that spot before the tetris block falls.

ESAM while alot of what you say about RC is true as far as how it should be played you also have to understand that you play like a top 3 total mobility in the game character.

By total mobility I mean "if you need to get to anywhere on the sceen, pika could on average get there at least 3rd fastest" only getting beaten by maybe both Sonic, and theory Yoshi (theory yoshi being one who can utilize all of his Dragonic Reverse techs which gives him pretty outstanding mobility).

Like it's not easy for some of the slower characters to continually escape and get to where they need to be to combat MK appropriately on certain parts. Sheik has great ground speed and incredible vertical speed but even she has trouble getting into the right spots to give MK trouble on that stage.

I play Diddy, he has one of the worst air mobility in the games and I manage fine. Bananas help a lot when dealing with stage control here, even on the rising part of the stage they help a lot. Obviously, some characters don't have the tools, recovery, or air speed to manage such as ganon, Luigi, Link, Sheik (somewhat), Bowser, etc, but most of the cast have something to combat MK in here to give them some sort of a chance or even an advantage, especially the higher tiers.

 

[Ghostbone]

He should be banned, but he isnt going to be banned. At this point the best that can be done is to specifically nerf ONLY him. BRC is off to a good start acknowledging it with a special LGL for MK. I do feel that if we can put enforceable restrictions on him, there is no need to ban him. The trouble is that there is a habit of just blanketing his nerfs across the entire cast to avoid acknowledging the problem.

Global LGLs are really annoying :/

Even with one imo characters shouldn't have a LGL against MK.

He has really devastating ledge traps and it can take a long time to get up, which accumulates a lot of grabs even when not specifically planking.

And MK really doesn't need a buff.

 

[ADHD]

P1 your posts don't ever have any tone or personality.. it's kind of weird and I noticed it.

 

[Chuee]

No, uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

you're both stupid.
the end.

 

[Player-1]

P1 your posts don't ever have any tone or personality.. it's kind of weird and I noticed it.

Mostly from school, any time I argue anything it usually doesn't have any personality or tone unless i'm trying to troll someone =p. I bet that sentence didn't have any personality to it until the smiley face...I'll just smiley face everywhere when i post =p =p =p >.> ^.^

 

[Judo777]

I already explained as well that the bans are getting split up. FD and Lylat, I see, are pretty much the opposite ends of the spectrum as far as starters as in Diddy, Falco, ICs, etc. (I'll refer to this as the Diddy crew) like FD and dislike lylat. MK, Wario, Marth, etc. (I'll refer to this as the MK crew) like lylat and dislike FD. The Diddy crew doesn't ban lylat because there are far better stages to ban like RC, Brinstar, Frigate, etc. The MK crew will almost always ban FD because there aren't any other better stages than FD for them, but that doesn't prove that it's completely broken for them, it just means that there's no other stage to ban. If the only legal stage list was the normal 5-starter stages then you would most likely see as many lylat bans as FD bans.



1. Stupid keep away game...? Lol what? THat's ridiculous, you do realize that MK's jab doesn't have that much reach and also you can't dash straight into a jab right? You have PLENTY of time to recover from dtilt>jab and like i said jab only locks if you get stage smacked, dtilt>jab without that can be SDIed out of. The only parts of the stage you shouldn't be at vs MK is on the right side and right next to the wall unless you're some certain characters (Diddy with bananas, snake with grenades are fairly safe against the wall). Meaning you have MORE THAN HALF OF THE BOAT to play on and still be safe DEPENDING ON THE CHARACTER YOU CAN HAVE MORE. LMAO @ you still going on about air SL still killing you at a low percent, RC blastzones are no worse than YI and if not then it's larger, if you're getting killed by that move at low percent then you just have bad DI. It's a bad spot to be at, I agree, but Uair can't hit you unless you're right next to the edge which is a stupid thing to do anyway, you should either just wait til the boat part ends or double jump or something and get back to the main part safely FROM THE EDGE. None of MK's moveset can reach you if you are close to the edge.


2. Uhhh...what? In case you didn't know having "fifty thousand jumps" doesn't keep the blast zone from coming up on you meaning your character can wait just as long as MK if you're playing the stage right. You have to make sure you take the right path (character and situational dependent) of which platforms to utilize on this part vs MK. MK's recovery? They're all too laggy to do any damage on you except for SL which isn't that big of a problem if you're below them or out of range above them. MK has one of the worst air mobility in the game, Wario is MUCH better at calling shots than MK on this part of the stage by far. If MK gets below you then you can go too high. It's because MK has five jumps that you can out run him verical wise, his mid air jumps don't have much height to them meaning you can get away fast enough with most of the cast. If you go low then MK goes high then you can either shark him or stay low and stall that part of the stage out. If you try to chase MK and he runs away then that's good most of the time, this part of the stage is MKs best part, IDK why he would try to stall this part out unless it's in the 3rd/4th cycle of the stage and it's obv it will go to time. He can capitalize on mistakes pretty hard here so he shouldn't be trying to stall it out too early in the game and try to capitalize on the moment.

3. MK can glide under the stage from point A to point B when the stage centers in on those 3 tetris blocks right before the semi circle slope. He'll take a good amount of hoop damage from this, especially if he chooses to stay by that wall (which will give hoop damage at that part of the stage) instead of coming back onto stage. The only thing he has done is made it so you are closer to the left blast zone than he is which can get passed by easily. He can't come back through the stage and stall because he will be trapped back up on the top part unless he takes a tetris block back down which is dumb to try to go for since it takes a good amount of time for the tetris block to fall down with the character, you can easily get him off that spot before the tetris block falls.



I play Diddy, he has one of the worst air mobility in the games and I manage fine. Bananas help a lot when dealing with stage control here, even on the rising part of the stage they help a lot. Obviously, some characters don't have the tools, recovery, or air speed to manage such as ganon, Luigi, Link, Sheik (somewhat), Bowser, etc, but most of the cast have something to combat MK in here to give them some sort of a chance or even an advantage, especially the higher tiers.

While I get what you are saying, diddy also happens to be one of the best characters in the game at combating MK in the most situations. ESAM was referring to characters that don;t have as many options as say diddy (perhaps pikachu since i don't believe pika can deal with MK's crap as directly as diddy can) being able to remedy that with proper stage position. Obviously as you stated some characters (I might argue most characters) don;t always have the necessary mobility to get to those places as efficiently.

 

[Player-1]

Diddy is really only effective against MK while being able to camp MK which you can't do on the rising part of the stage. Diddy's poor aerial mobility hurts him here, but if you know the stage well enough and know when parts of the stage disappear/appear as well as which don't disappear at all and know where they are offscreen then you should be able to still at least be able to stall MK long enough until the wall starts appear after the pendulum, bananas just help diddy with his poor air mobility. Characters like Wario, Yoshi, Jiggz, etc. have great mobility and don't even need tools to avoid MK long enough.

Basically my route for the rising part with Diddy against MK is stay below MK as long as possible to avoid getting sharked and throw bananas at him from the top, I usually do this until the stage centers in on the platform next to the 3 tetris blocks. At this point I either try to combat MK for about 5 seconds until the pendulum appears (which it appears the same time that platform disappears) and then go to the platform to the left of the pendulum at the top or I go straight for that platform, it depends on the positioning of the MK. Then I usually swap positions from that platform and the tetris blocks that hold the pendulum up, MK has a hard time getting from one place to the other because of his poor aerial mobility, this last for about 5 seconds as well and then you can jump to the platform that spawns to the right which starts to appear at the the platform on the left disappears. Most of the time the MK doesn't know the stage well enough and it takes him a couple of seconds to get to that part from the pendulum since pendulum is swung to the left at this point and by the time he gets to you you can get to the wall that would spawn during that time, if the MK doesn't know the stage that well then you have to combat him for about 3 seconds before you can go down and at that point you have the stage to aid you again.

Most characters can run that route or something very similar to it, but because of their poor mobility, laggy recovery, or a very short midair jump or a combination of these they CAN still be punished because of these, it's just the more you know the stage the least punished you're going to get which makes it manageable for some characters (like sheik), but some characters you still get ****ed over pretty hard (ivysaur).

 

[Tesh]

It seems like you guys are talking about super aggressive MKs on RC. Those can be handled, but tbh you have to be ALOT better than the MK to deal with patient camping of the ever-present "good spots".

As stated already, if you want to avoid his wall shenanigans, you need stay on the platforms on the mast, or on the sides of the ship, leaving you open to some EASY kills setups like uair to shuttle loop, ftilt to shuttle loop, dthrow to shuttle loop. But even if you are playing maybe Diddy, Falco, Snake, Pika etc. and you can control the boat and keep him off of you, he can just plank the whole time (60% of the match he won't need ledge grabs to camp you anyway).

After that, you can't just STAY BELOW him if he doesn't want you to. He can easily fly around and get below you and staying WAY above him isn't a viable option really without properly reading and avoiding every shuttle loop and nado coming from below. Once again, if he is camping you, you won't catch him here.

The stage basically stays in a formation of broken up platforms that make it nearly impossible to catch and punish things like nado and shuttle loop (almost no one has the airspeed and ground speed to follow nado across 2-3 platforms).

Then you have the descent back to the boat. There are options to avoid MK here, but if he is whoring his uair at this point, it could mean and easy easy early kill for him and then its back to the boat campfest.

 

[Player-1]

Tesh...I don't feel like repeating myself so I'll just let you go back and read my post because it covers everything you just said.

edit: except the falling down part. I don't like doing anything risky here unless they try to go down a tetris block, you can try to pressure him on the block to make him miss it because it's really easy to knock him off of it, the thing is that most of the time they can still get back if you do it before the the stage starts falling and if you do it while the stage is falling then the falling down can affect projectiles and such and they may not even reach him even if he's on the closest one, it depends on the projectile. If you're playing a charcter with an Up-b that had both good vertical and horizontal movement you can use it to get back though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2NYvJJ-_Vw

the reason this works is because you can't kill yourself off the top, the game thinks you're trying to by using a recovery type move. So you can survive by pressuring your opponent with attacks then using your recovery move to get back off the of that and into the boat, but it depends on the character, Wario, ROB, and Pit work best. MK doesn't work that well because the falling fast thing shortens his up-b and he cant use his midair jumps to get high enough to up-b because mid air jumps still kill you. Uair is actually pretty ineffective because the stage is falling faster than you're going up WHILE you're in the air so you're falling faster than the MK can push you up basically.

 

[Tesh]

Most of the time the MK doesn't know the stage well enough

as i stated, you have to be ALOT better than your opponent to win here vs mk. you talked about dealing with an aggressive mk and how to avoid HIM, but how exactly are you going to deal with him avoiding YOU?

 

[Player-1]

You can't deal with an MK avoiding you on the rising portion of the stage. The top part of the stage MK can't avoid you without taking a large amount of hoop damage, the boat forces MK to play again unless he planks, but there's a LGL for that.


also, you took that quote out of context without referring to anything following that which states how to deal with an MK that does know the stage.


edit: you can't deal with MK on the rising part with the majority of the cast.

edit2: On the rising part, if the MK wants to avoid you completely then he will take a small amount of hoop damage as well.

 

[John12346]

MK gets to scrooge on the boat. No rule covers excessive scrooging.

No other character can go from bottom to top/top to bottom safely and quickly like MK can on the rising transition. If you stay low to avoid MK's sharking, then he stalls you by staying on the top. If you try to go to the top, MK leaves and stalls/sharks at the bottom.

MK can easily stall the pendulum transition by waiting on the upper leftmost platform and moving to the platform that appears to the right of the pendulum.

I just went from Point A to Point B on my picture without landing or dying and took 7% of hoop damage on my FIRST TRY. 5% on the second. That's not a lot. I could also imagine one of those platforms on the sidescrolling phase assisting MK's movement even further.

Also, all of your arguments are invalid if MK has a stock lead.

 

[Player-1]

You continue to take damage though when you get to point B unless you get back onto the top part of the stage where he can't scrooge.

There's no SV floating platform that allows him to not grab the ledge, so if he's scrooging then he'll still have to grab the ledge. Also, a special LGL for RC still fixes that problem, no problem with that.

Okay I don't even know why you're arguing the rising part since I already said you can't do anything...? It's actually a good thing if MK stalls this part the first/second cycle because this is MK's best part of the stage, if he's voluntarily not playing on it then it's fine by me. And also, yes Wario can move more quickly than MK, so can Yoshi, Snake can go bottom to top faster than MK, Game and Watch, and probably a few other chracters.

Stall the transition part? Fine by me again, MK wrecks on the pendulum part, if he's going to those platforms that's even better for me.

All of my arguments aren't invalid if MK doesn't have the stock lead...? Just kill him...? It might take a while admittedly, but if he's not coming into combat with you then you're not taking any damage and MK HAS to come in contact with you at some point during RC so just kill him then, you have to wait a while for that opportunity to arise, but it doesn't matter if you're not getting any damage.


Also, all of this is stuff I've already said, can you PLEASE try READING my post THOROUGHLY before trying to make an argument? I don't like repeating myself.

 

[Tesh]

Being able to catch MK like once or twice doesn't matter if he is at low percents, and even if he is at high percents, you won't always be able to land just the right stuff to score a kill. Not to mention, he could win the confrontation, he is mk after all.

I was about to say a special LGL for RC but....how low is fair enough? And it would be MK only right? Might as well make it like 20 or 15. There is no reason MK would need more than that just to play.

 

[Player-1]

if he's at low percents and you already lost a stock then you kind of deserve to lose..

edit: I mean you could have got gimped or something, but I actually get gimped less on RC than other stages and I play Diddy, it's because I know when things respawn/disappear/reappear/know which things stay on the stage and don't disappear, etc.

 

[John12346]

If we need to instate a special LGL for RC, a stage which has only has two ledges which are available for 25% of the match, all because of Metaknight, then what do we call that...? An arbitrary nerf, perhaps...? I'm pretty sure we considered those to be, y'know, BAD.

I guess you agree rising and pendulum can be stalled by MK, so I'll leave that at that.

And I guess I didn't clarify well enough about the sidescroll phase. The entire ordeal, moving from Point A to Point B, AND waiting for the camera to get to my position, gave me 7% hoop damage total. I've already said this, but you have to remember hoop damage accumulates REALLY slowly, and you also have to be really deep offscreen for it to take effect.

I didn't even use the platforms to aid me, and yet I, as a MK with no prior practice, or even general knowledge on how to use the character correctly, was able to make it from A to B with a measly 7% damage. I'm willing to bet a more skilled MK player, using the platforms in conjunction with MK's running away tactics, would easily be able to bring that hoop damage down to 2% or 3%.

And as far as the whole MK has the lead business, I'm pretty sure we've already confirmed that MK is easily capable of dealing damage WHILE stalling, and generally moreso than what the opponent's dishing out. We've all heard and seen about the horror stories of someone attempting to fight MK's stalling tactics on Youtube and here on SWF. We've seen how hard it is to take a lead back from MK on a normal stage. What makes you think the process is going to be made any easier on a stage practically designed to make MK **** your face in?

Also, what Tesh said. MK does generally win most of the confrontations if he's been stalling and the opponent's been chasing him.

 

[Player-1]

RC has 6 edges actually...And no I don't consider nerfs for just specific things bad.

I agree that the rising part can be stalled only against some characters, not all of them. If you want to stall the pendulum part out then you have to use both the pendulum and the platforms, not just one or the other and that's still against some characters. And I don't think MK can stall the whole thing without avoiding combat against all characters. For example, Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff would have a hard time hitting MK while the stage is moving up if MK is camping the upper part, but one it got to the pendulum part then jiggz has a good opportunity to hit MK because of her good horizontal air speed and multiple jumps, while characters such as GaW is the opposite. The majority of the cast have some point during that portion to come into contact with MK.

Wait, you're using the platforms to to stall out the upper part? Can you explain what you're doing exactly? I think we might be on two different levels here.

MK isn't capable of dealing damage while stalling if the other player is keeping their distance until they can come in contact. The only way I see where stalling can equal damage is sharking which is still avoidable.

Don't chase something you can't hit. You need to position yourself so that you can punish a mistake/human error, but not close enough to put yourself in ways of damage. If MK is winning the mutual conformations then what makes you think he'll lose them if he wasn't stalling prior. I don't want that part misunderstood so I'll break it down a bit. If you're chasing a stalling opponent then you're a the disadvantage which doesn't equal mutual, when I say mutual I mean the MK is no longer stalling and has come into contact with the opponent who was already waiting and prepared for this contact (the contact is predictable since the stage is predictable).

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

http://www.mcleodgaming.com/viewflash.php?id=6&type=game

everyone should just drop brawl for this. this is my actual favorite smash game, but i play brawl for the people and because honestly i dig pit due to being an ex kid icarus freak. but seriously this is the best smash game and it's 2 player on one keyboard.

there you all go, enjoy it. all this serious broken MK talk needs some fun randomly thrown in

 

[John12346]

6 edges? I recounted, and only found 4. :x

But let's get to the main point. There are, like, way too many people who are at the ready to talk about why surgical rules, against MK, no less, are one of the stupidest things to do. Obviously I'm not going to recite their entire argument but the tl;dr is that if we really need to limit a character on a stage that much, then it's broken, and something needs to be "removed" from the equation; either the nerf, the character, or the stage.

With that in mind, can I just assume you agree MK can avoid most contact with his opponents via scrooging strategies on the boat phase in the case of 35 LGLs?

As far as the rising transition of RC, we need to remember that MK need only stay as low as the blastzone, or as high as the already spawned carpets and donut blocks to avoid conflict. Approaching MK from above in a platform-filled stage is a suicidal move, obviously, as you're setting yourself up for a lot of bull****. Chasing MK to the top will cause MK to float around even higher with his jumps, or to randomly jump off the stage to the right, and fast fall with that ridiculous speed to the bottom of the stage, which refurbishes the problem.

On the pendulum phase, it's really not as hard as you're making it out to be to stall there. In addition to the platforms on the top left and top right, there's also a pseudo "circle" of donut blocks above the pendulum, which aids MK in his stalling strategies even further. I know it's possible to stand on the blocks to force them to fall down, but by the time you've done that, the next phase of the stage will have spawned already...

As far as the platforming phase, I said:
- I'm an inexperienced MK player and did not use the platforms. I took 7% hoop damage.
Of which, I inferred:
- An experienced MK player USING the platforms would likely only take 2% or 3% of hoop damage.

Also, please don't bring human error into these shenanigans. You have an equal opportunity to mess up as your opponent does. While it's possible MK will make a mistake at some point during the stage, it's equally as possible that you're going to make a mistake, and MK will be there to capitalize on it.

 

[Player-1]

There's 2 edges at the boat, 2 edges on the stage that the boat crashes on, 1 ledge on the semi circle part of the top part of the stage where you have to let a tetris block fall in order to grab, and then 1 ledge on the wall right before it drops to the boat it again is covered by a tetris block.

I know the main argument for surgical rules, if something is that broken then it should be removed in the first place, but it's entirely stupid that we ban a character or a stage when we can easily put in a rule that doesn't affect any other character except for that one.


Against most characters I can agree with that.

And wtf are you talking about? the top of the stage are the tetris blocks that hold the pendulum up, what do you mean drop all the way to the bottom? That's just the pendulum, everything else has disappeared or is disappearing at that time. Ridiculous speed? Are you serous? MK is a floaty even while FFing it's not that fast of a fall compared to some other characters.

Actually, it is as hard to stall that part of the pendulum as I'm making it out to be, which i'm not making it out to be super hard in the first place, I'm just saying with certain characters they can still have a good chance of punishing it such as jiggz and wario.

Wow you really don't know how to read do you? You are making me repeat myself so much. I never said anything about the top part of the stage except HOW ARE YOU DOING IT, BECAUSE I THINK WE HAVE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS IN MIND, IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO ****ING CONCENTRATE FOR 3 ****ING SECONDS TO READ SOMETHING RIGHT.

What the **** are you talking about with human error? Right, there's human error in just standing there right? I mean that's a pretty hard thing to do, to just stand in a spot, it took me weeks to master just standing there, but then I realized that I could just put my controller down and not do anything, you know maybe play a game of Call of Duty or have a picnic with a cup of tea while I have some free hands, that really helped me a lot to learn how to stand still.

And again, you aren't reading right. I am NOT NOT NOT, N-O-T, NOT saying that you should just HOPE that the MK player just messes up and you suddenly give him 50% damage, I am saying that you are PREPARED in some human error takes place. But excuse me for bringing that in , because obviously you shouldn't ever be prepared for something to happen, I mean that is just a terrible idea now that I go back and look it.

m saying if MK is planking on the boat with Uairs and let's just say that I'm diddy for example since I can work with that character since I know him best. I am standing outside Diddy's uair range with a banana in my hand. Is there any harm in standing there? No. I'm not getting hit by the Uairs. But what if I'm standing at the opposite end of the boat. Am I going to get hit there by the Uairs? No. But which option is obviously better? Right, the one just outside the uair range, because you're AT LEAST set up for the punish JUST IN CASE he messes up, anything wrong with that? No, okay now moving on.

You don't have an equal opportunity to mess up as your opponent does. Guess who is going to make less mistakes? Yeah, the better player most likely. In a completely mutual setting then you have just as much as a chance of making a mistake, but we're not talking about that.

Please...I know it might be kind of hard, but try to actually READ MY POST THOROUGHLY, you are putting words in my mouth that I am not saying, otherwise your post are no better than "tl;dr". I mean I've only said this at least 3 times, so maybe I should give you some leeway, but I think repeating myself 3 times might be good enough. I REALLY hope I spelled this post out enough for you to catch on to what I'm saying because maybe if you don't catch it the first time, then maybe the more broken down version will help you read.

 

[T-block]

How the hellll is that a tetris block

 

[Player-1]

lolz, IDK, that's just what I've always referred to them. I don't like falling blocks because I've found that term misleading and confusing at times, and I heard donut block after I started saying tetris block.

edit: 3:20 where I am so I'm going to bed this will also give you, John, a good 6-8 hours to read over the post to make sure you actually got everything this time.

 

[John12346]

I know the main argument for surgical rules, if something is that broken then it should be removed in the first place, but it's entirely stupid that we ban a character or a stage when we can easily put in a rule that doesn't affect any other character except for that one.

Against most characters I can agree with that.

Then argue with them, because it's generally agreed that we don't turn to surgical nerfs unless we actually NEED to.

And wtf are you talking about? the top of the stage are the tetris blocks that hold the pendulum up, what do you mean drop all the way to the bottom? That's just the pendulum, everything else has disappeared or is disappearing at that time. Ridiculous speed? Are you serous? MK is a floaty even while FFing it's not that fast of a fall compared to some other characters.

You got mixed up here. At this point I was talking about the rising transition, not the pendulum transition.

Also it's not that MK's FF speed is so great, it's that other characters' fast fall speeds aren't greater enough than MK's to catch up with him if he goes first.

Actually, it is as hard to stall that part of the pendulum as I'm making it out to be, which i'm not making it out to be super hard in the first place, I'm just saying with certain characters they can still have a good chance of punishing it such as jiggz and wario.

MK's not restricted to staying on those platforms or using the "circle" above the pendulum. He can use his many jumps, which go much higher than anything Wario or Jiggly can attain in the same amount of time.

The strategies change from character to character. It's my position that MK has at least one for each character.

What the **** are you talking about with human error? Right, there's human error in just standing there right? I mean that's a pretty hard thing to do, to just stand in a spot, it took me weeks to master just standing there, but then I realized that I could just put my controller down and not do anything, you know maybe play a game of Call of Duty or have a picnic with a cup of tea while I have some free hands, that really helped me a lot to learn how to stand still.

And again, you aren't reading right. I am NOT NOT NOT, N-O-T, NOT saying that you should just HOPE that the MK player just messes up and you suddenly give him 50% damage, I am saying that you are PREPARED in some human error takes place. But excuse me for bringing that in , because obviously you shouldn't ever be prepared for something to happen, I mean that is just a terrible idea now that I go back and look it.

Now you're the one not listening.

You can be prepared for MK to screw up, but MK can also be prepared for you to screw up. In a theoretical even tradeoff of damage output for each mistake, and we assume both opponents screw up at an equal rate, the non-MK isn't going to be able to bridge the gap for the lead that MK set already.

m saying if MK is planking on the boat with Uairs and let's just say that I'm diddy for example since I can work with that character since I know him best. I am standing outside Diddy's uair range with a banana in my hand. Is there any harm in standing there? No. I'm not getting hit by the Uairs. But what if I'm standing at the opposite end of the boat. Am I going to get hit there by the Uairs? No. But which option is obviously better? Right, the one just outside the uair range, because you're AT LEAST set up for the punish JUST IN CASE he messes up, anything wrong with that? No, okay now moving on.

In that scenario, MK is also set up to punish any mistake you might make, too, and in that case, non-MK won't be able to regain the lead in that case, if we assume equivalent damage outputs.

You don't have an equal opportunity to mess up as your opponent does. Guess who is going to make less mistakes? Yeah, the better player most likely. In a completely mutual setting then you have just as much as a chance of making a mistake, but we're not talking about that.

Uh, we always assume equal skill levels when we theorycraft like this. Ask anyone.

@ Everyone else: I don't want this to turn into another John12346 vs ToMMY. Please speak up for whichever side you feel is more accurate.

 

[Orion*]

People honestly need to learn RC, because Brinstar is clearly a better level for MK.

It really depends on the MU man...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I already explained as well that the bans are getting split up. FD and Lylat, I see, are pretty much the opposite ends of the spectrum as far as starters as in Diddy, Falco, ICs, etc. (I'll refer to this as the Diddy crew) like FD and dislike lylat. MK, Wario, Marth, etc. (I'll refer to this as the MK crew) like lylat and dislike FD. The Diddy crew doesn't ban lylat because there are far better stages to ban like RC, Brinstar, Frigate, etc. The MK crew will almost always ban FD because there aren't any other better stages than FD for them, but that doesn't prove that it's completely broken for them, it just means that there's no other stage to ban. If the only legal stage list was the normal 5-starter stages then you would most likely see as many lylat bans as FD bans.

You know, somehow I think you're completely missing my point. Lemme analogize your post for ya...

I already explained as well that the bans are getting split up. RC and Delfino, I see, are pretty much the opposite ends of the spectrum as far as starters as in Diddy, Falco, ICs, etc. (I'll refer to this as the Diddy crew) like Delfino and dislike RC. MK, Wario, Marth, etc. (I'll refer to this as the MK crew) like RC and dislike Delfino. The MK crew doesn't ban Delfino because there are far better stages to ban like FD, SV, BF, etc. The diddy crew will almost always ban RC because there aren't any other worse stages than RC for them, but that doesn't prove that it's completely broken for them, it just means that there's no other stage to ban. If the only legal stage list was the normal 5-starter stages then you would most likely see as many Delfino bans as RC bans.

Do you get the point? It is completely irrelevant that there's no "worse" stage than FD in the same way that it's completely irrelevant that there's no worse stage than RC, or Brinstar if they were starters. The fact is, you have a hardcore counterpick, a stage which is on the absolute edge of the spectrum, as a starter stage. Ideally, this would not be the case. Ideally, you wouldn't consider a starter stage an autoban in so many matchups. Like, imagine this starter list:

SV
BF
YI
LC
PS2

In this case, you aren't taking all of the hardcore counterpicks of a certain character in the starter list. You're taking the stages that no archetype of character (and really no character) would find as a hardcore counterpick. There's room on both sides! And this is kind of what we're going for here. I hope I've made myself clear on this. There is no good reason for a stage which is such a potent counterpick to be a starter. None.

 

[ADHD]

you're both stupid.
the end.

but u main lucas and u are random stupid.

i win ggz.

Mostly from school, any time I argue anything it usually doesn't have any personality or tone unless i'm trying to troll someone =p. I bet that sentence didn't have any personality to it until the smiley face...I'll just smiley face everywhere when i post =p =p =p >.> ^.^

I also don't know why people argue with BPC anymore. It's either his way completely unaltered, or none at all. He's been repeating the same stuff over for a year.

 

[Orion*]

There is no good reason for a stage which is such a potent counterpick to be a starter. None.

I still haven't seen FD be "potent".

If you want to show like... Diddy/Falco/ICs ****** characters they ALREADY BEAT SOLIDLY on like BF/SV/FD then okay, go for it? But for the most part MUs across tournament viable characters Usually aren't very drastic imo.

Falco/Diddy/ICs vs. MK, Marth, Wario, Snake, TL, ect. and even vs themselves (obv not ditto MUs) aren't to favored in either characters advantage.
The only character I see getting boned that hard is like.... DDD but tbh no matter where you CP it's bound to be **** because he's so linear as a character.

RC/Brins/Delfino ect change matchups MUCH more drastically than FD ever could. If I really have to explain why for that then my response would be to play the game more, because it's really clear you haven't enough if you can't see that.

 

[Judo777]

Although the topic has moved on P1 one thing I meant by diddy being able to combat MK in more situations is that diddy is one of the few characters in the game that can actually make MK airdodge lol (the other 2 being Marth and Ike). Diddy with a banana in his hand being in the air is a lot harder for MK to tackle than almost every other character lol.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Orion: I was talking in general, not every MU. I don't know every MU

I think it was John: No **** this becomes a time-out stage. I timed out Red Halberd in a MM because I played that way. It isn't hard to ****ing hit MK and get a lead: You guys are acting like MK will always get the first hit always 100% of the time.

And no, I'm NOT just talking with Pikachu. I have played RC as ICs and played the same ****ing way and had slightly less success than Pikachu (Because Pika is better against MK) against Metaknights. ICs don't have very good aerial momentum, and their squall has a **** ton of lag, which obviously means, by what everybody else is so wrapped up into believing, that MK WILL SHUTTLE LOOP ME AT 0 AND I'LL DIE BECAUSE THE BLASTZONES ARE TINY!!!

*sigh*

 

[Orion*]

No **** this becomes a time-out stage.

That's my problem with it. Its revolved to one tactic or you're at a huge disadvantage. Trying to actually "fight" MK and I don't mean LOL RUSH IN but... you know just play the game lol then you're going to lose unless you massively outskill the other player.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Well...then you deserve to lose if you don't know how to play against him on this level.

 

[Orion*]

Well...then you deserve to lose if you don't know how to play against him on this level.

You play against him... by not playing against him. Yeah **** that LOL. I'll do what I need to in tournament to win, but we should not promote or setup our rules for matches like that.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Damn...so 1 character promotes camping on this stage. Falco does that on 3 of the neutrals, as does olimar. I guess we should ban those as well?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I still haven't seen FD be "potent".

If you want to show like... Diddy/Falco/ICs ****** characters they ALREADY BEAT SOLIDLY on like BF/SV/FD then okay, go for it? But for the most part MUs across tournament viable characters Usually aren't very drastic imo.

Let's not conflate FD with SV and BF, eh? There are several major differences between them, both in degree and nature. The biggest one is probably the lack of any platforms on FD, but then there's also that FD is simply the most extreme case of bias towards grounded characters.

Falco/Diddy/ICs vs. MK, Marth, Wario, Snake, TL, ect. and even vs themselves (obv not ditto MUs) aren't to favored in either characters advantage.
The only character I see getting boned that hard is like.... DDD but tbh no matter where you CP it's bound to be **** because he's so linear as a character.

RC/Brins/Delfino ect change matchups MUCH more drastically than FD ever could. If I really have to explain why for that then my response would be to play the game more, because it's really clear you haven't enough if you can't see that.

Related to? All other stages? Perhaps you can claim that about RC and Brinstar... Delfino? Not necessarily so much.

FD does not have a single platform. Think about that for a moment. That is a massive and incredibly uncommon change in gameplay for smash!

But why does this matter? Even if it changes gameplay less than Delfino, RC, and Brinstar, relative to all other legal stages, it's still a strong counterpick for many top tiers, and against various characters. Hell, what does it have to compare unfavorably to be disqualified as a starter? Halberd? Frigate? Battlefield?

 

[Player-1]

Then argue with them, because it's generally agreed that we don't turn to surgical nerfs unless we actually NEED to.

I have been...?

You got mixed up here. At this point I was talking about the rising transition, not the pendulum transition.

If MK really wants to time someone out then he'd probably go for the tetris blocks that hold the pendulum, they are constant throughout the stage , meaning they never disappear. The only things that disappear on RC are most of the platforms on the rising part and pendulum part, the pendulum, and the platforms by the wall and the wall itself right after the pendulum, everything else is constant. You can even hit the pendulum tetris blocks and the set of 3 tetris blocks next to the wall from the boat if you get hit there. Anyway, I'm pretty sure MK falls pretty slow compared to the rest of the cast, but I don't have a problem with MK trying to stall this portion of the stage out since this is his best part.

Also it's not that MK's FF speed is so great, it's that other characters' fast fall speeds aren't greater enough than MK's to catch up with him if he goes first.

^^^^

MK's not restricted to staying on those platforms or using the "circle" above the pendulum. He can use his many jumps, which go much higher than anything Wario or Jiggly can attain in the same amount of time.

If he's really trying to stall by jumping high then you can just go up to that portion and wait for him to fall down...he has terrible aerial mobility and with no jumps he's kind of screwed.

The strategies change from character to character. It's my position that MK has at least one for each character.

and each character has a strategy vs MK

Now you're the one not listening.

You can be prepared for MK to screw up, but MK can also be prepared for you to screw up. In a theoretical even tradeoff of damage output for each mistake, and we assume both opponents screw up at an equal rate, the non-MK isn't going to be able to bridge the gap for the lead that MK set already.

Actually...you're still not interpreting what I am saying right. You are standing completely still against MK while he's planking, in other words you're doing absolutely nothing, no button inputs. You CAN'T mess that up. The main point I am making it is that you can get in a spot just in case he messes up. That's it, nothing more.

In that scenario, MK is also set up to punish any mistake you might make, too, and in that case, non-MK won't be able to regain the lead in that case, if we assume equivalent damage outputs.

There can't be a mistake if I'm standing completely still doing no button inputs. The only thing I can make a mistake on is punishing a mistake which puts you back at a mutual setting.

Uh, we always assume equal skill levels when we theorycraft like this. Ask anyone.

You were using an absolute, which I hate those, so I was just pointing it out. I also forgot to mention we can assume whoever is doing the more difficult work will be more prone to human error. Who is most likely to mess up a planking MK who is pressing a series of inputs, or me staying still not inputting anything? Right, the MK will be more prone to it.

@ Everyone else: I don't want this to turn into another John12346 vs ToMMY. Please speak up for whichever side you feel is more accurate.

You know, somehow I think you're completely missing my point. Lemme analogize your post for ya...



Do you get the point? It is completely irrelevant that there's no "worse" stage than FD in the same way that it's completely irrelevant that there's no worse stage than RC, or Brinstar if they were starters. The fact is, you have a hardcore counterpick, a stage which is on the absolute edge of the spectrum, as a starter stage. Ideally, this would not be the case. Ideally, you wouldn't consider a starter stage an autoban in so many matchups. Like, imagine this starter list:

SV
BF
YI
LC
PS2

In this case, you aren't taking all of the hardcore counterpicks of a certain character in the starter list. You're taking the stages that no archetype of character (and really no character) would find as a hardcore counterpick. There's room on both sides! And this is kind of what we're going for here. I hope I've made myself clear on this. There is no good reason for a stage which is such a potent counterpick to be a starter. None.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying either...Also i don't really understand your analogy, I admit I might be missing that point, but I don't see the relevance in it...? What I was saying is that there's only 2 stages that clearly stand out more than the rest for Diddy/Falco/ICs which are FD and SV. All of the bans go into FD from those characters as, while Falco/Diddy/ICs are all splitting up their bans between brinstar, rainbow cruise, delfino, frigate, green greens, norfair, etc.

I think you seem to think that FD is some super amazing stage that gives Falco/ICs/Diddy some super amazing advantage where it's like Falco/ICs/Diddy to FD is the same as MK to brinstar or something. Which it isn't. I'll use Diddy as an example since I know that character best. There's 2 reasons why Diddy likes FD 1. No platforms to hurt banana gameplay and 2. It's larger than any other starter. Platforms aren't even that big of a problem in the first place for Diddy it just helps with some minor things like it not taking 1 fourth of a second to jump up and z catch the banana. FD is only slightly larger than SV also. Characters can still have not that bad of a chance on winning on a stage like FD. FD isn't a "potent" CP, it's just the best one for those characters. FD is just SV with some minor advantages (it even has some disadvantages for those characters) and people still beat these characters on SV. Everyone always bans FD against these characters so I can't really bring any good real life examples into the argument, but seriously these characters get THAT much of an advantage from SV to FD.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I was going to make some kind of post complaining about the number of rules specifically made for MK, but it seems like that kind of discussion is already happening.

He's got a specific lgl, people were talking about banning stages just so he doesn't get a counterpick in the first few pages of this thread...

I don't like the ruleset becoming "Ways to make MK less ridiculous."