The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[WindMajor]

ENFORCABILITY!!? Thats a HORRIBLE arguement. By that logic, the wifi ladder shouldn't have any rules at all. I've trashed people 2-0 on the ladder only to have them lie to a mod and CONVINCE them that I lost. I already KNOW that online has enforceability issues.

Thank you for acknowledging that enforceability is indeed a problem over Wi-Fi, and that the way it's dealt with is different than in offline tournaments, but if you don't like the argument of enforceability that I mentioned, then I recommend that you take a gander at the other one I mentioned before it. The one where I state that some of the Unity Ruleset's rules won't transfer correctly, if at all, to an online ruleset.

The Wi-Fi ladder can't just "adopt" the Unity Ruleset since in order for an offline ruleset to be adopted online, it has to go through many changes so that the rules can be compatible with the type of environment the tournament is taking place in. Any changes made to it that aren't made by the BRC will stop it from being "The Unity Ruleset". They can take portions of it as if they were recommendations to create their own ruleset, but in no way can they slap a "BBRRC Authorized Unity Ruleset" sticker unless the BRC specifically makes a ruleset for online play. It'll just be another variation.

If what you want is for them to adopt "those little portions" such as the stage list and what not, then the person to bug is Nealdt, not the BBRRC.

If you have no control or impact at all as far as AiB ruleset, thats fine, just say so. I assumed you guys would be able to get something done on that front as well.

I'm pretty sure they don't, but who am I to say that?

 

[Tesh]

Are you in the BBRRC? If you want to outline for me a few general concepts that can't translate to wifi (its not like we are trying to play 1.1 damage ratio special brawl or something), I'd appreciate it. As I stated before, competitive online play should mimic offline play as MUCH as POSSIBLE. Using the same stagelist is POSSIBLE.

 

[Reizilla]

All you have to do is call it the "BBR-RC Online Ruleset." That's it. You're making a big deal over nothing. All of the little rules that don't transfer well into online aren't the ones that are a problem or that really have needed much "unifying" in the first place. The biggest factors are things in the actual gameplay, which are perfectly fine being transfered over to wifi and are the biggest discrepancies between rulesets. There's no point in not having them, as long as AiB and this group have teamed up.

 

[WindMajor]

Are you in the BBRRC? If you want to outline for me a few general concepts that can't translate to wifi (its not like we are trying to play 1.1 damage ratio special brawl or something), I'd appreciate it. As I stated before, competitive online play should mimic offline play as MUCH as POSSIBLE. Using the same stagelist is POSSIBLE.

I'm not in the BBRRC, but as for things that won't transfer well as is, off the top of my head I could mention probably the majority of the Conduct Rules, and perhaps the segment on port priority, and the Yellow/Red Card rule. My point isn't that they won't transfer though, and because of that everyone is doomed. My point is that in order to accommodate for an online tournament, a lot of the rules might need to be scrapped or rewritten, and when doing that, it no longer becomes "The Unity Ruleset" unless the BRC approves of those changes.

I'm not saying that the AiB ruleset SHOULDN'T mimic the Unity Ruleset as much as possible. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I think it should, seeing as the BRC is actively seeking to unify our rulesets and all that jazz. I'm just saying that it's not going to be a BRC product unless the BRC takes some action.

All you have to do is call it the "BBR-RC Online Ruleset." That's it. You're making a big deal over nothing. All of the little rules that don't transfer well into online aren't the ones that are a problem or that really have needed much "unifying" in the first place. The biggest factors are things in the actual gameplay, which are perfectly fine being transfered over to wifi and are the biggest discrepancies between rulesets. There's no point in not having them, as long as AiB and this group have teamed up.

AiB can mimic the ruleset all they want, but they can't call it the Unity Ruleset unless the BRC and AiB team up to make an online ruleset. That's my entire point. I'm not saying that they shouldn't mimic it, or that they can't mimic it, I'm just talking about branding.

 

[Reizilla]

Well yeah, I think that's what he's trying to get at. That those here should try getting together with whoever is in charge over there and make the minor tweaks that need to be made to adopt this ruleset for wifi. Hell, they could add in "for offline tournaments" and "for online tournaments" and call them both the Unity Ruleset. I can't see it being terribly difficult to do, save encountering stubbornness on AiB's part.

Nobody's really arguing against anyone here, I think people were just confused on how much influence the people in the BRC had, since they got the whole featured tournaments thing, but AZ pointed out that it wasn't that much.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So...does anybody have specific questions that don't have to do with Wifi?

I saw somebody ask something about how it was decided. Pretty much we had a thread that questioned 5 starters, and we ended up voting for 7 stages. After that was established, we voted on the 2 stages to be added. CS and PS1 were the large majority.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm not in the BBRRC, but as for things that won't transfer well as is, off the top of my head I could mention probably the majority of the Conduct Rules, and perhaps the segment on port priority, and the Yellow/Red Card rule. My point isn't that they won't transfer though, and because of that everyone is doomed. My point is that in order to accommodate for an online tournament, a lot of the rules might need to be scrapped or rewritten, and when doing that, it no longer becomes "The Unity Ruleset" unless the BRC approves of those changes.

I'm not saying that the AiB ruleset SHOULDN'T mimic the Unity Ruleset as much as possible. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I think it should, seeing as the BRC is actively seeking to unify our rulesets and all that jazz. I'm just saying that it's not going to be a BRC product unless the BRC takes some action.



AiB can mimic the ruleset all they want, but they can't call it the Unity Ruleset unless the BRC and AiB team up to make an online ruleset. That's my entire point. I'm not saying that they shouldn't mimic it, or that they can't mimic it, I'm just talking about branding.

Personally, I see no reason why this isn't a feasible outcome. Obviously certain aspects of the conduct section would be nearly impossible/impractical to enforce. But the basics such as the ruling on Standing Infinites, the stage list, etc are relatively easy to migrate. We are taking the correct steps to unite the two sites together as far rulesets and I expect to see a positive outcome, personally. I don't see a reason why we can't draft a online version for this Ruleset. I think it's a great idea.

Also what ESAM said. We discuss EVERYTHING in detail before we make any sort of definitive vote. This isn't something that we would just create overnight. The things worth changing often times are not.

 

[Tesh]

Tech Chase is the best.

 

[WindMajor]

Well that's certainly good to know, TC.

As for non-wifi questions, I guess I could ask this, although I'm not sure if you guys would be allowed to discuss it.

Are you guys looking at any other stages in particular other than Norfair?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Tech Chase is the best.

Well that's certainly good to know, TC.

As for non-wifi questions, I guess I could ask this, although I'm not sure if you guys would be allowed to discuss it.

Are you guys looking at any other stages in particular other than Norfair?

We can let you know what we're discussing, but we can't give you any details of what each member said about the stages and such/what the verdict is looking like. We have a pretty clear "Leaking Policy" intact.

But we are looking at Jungle Japes (pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere), as well as Green Greens. Discussions about other stages could end up being opened. With the impending attention of a few more members, we may wait on a few things.

 

[Tesh]

Oh god, not Japes please. I'll gladly give you Ps2 back if you just keep Japes out.

 

[WindMajor]

Thanks guys.

 

[Browny]

All brawl sets will now take about 2-5 minutes longer now.

Just sayin

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Also, I know I have offered this out before but if anyone ever wants to seriously discuss ruleset things with me, I am often times available via Skype and Aim. I mean as long as you aren't a troll and such. Always open to hear people out and welcome beneficial changes into the community. You can PM me for the screen names. I just want to make sure everyone has a visible connection to the Ruleset Committee is all.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Green Greens? No thanks, I'd rather have Jungle Japes and Norfair over that stage anyday.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Keep in mind, we didn't just say "Oh Green Greens looks like the next Pictochat, let's discuss it!". Just in case anyone ran down that train of thought. We're looking at pretty much everything that isn't insanely disruptive.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yay JJ and GG! :D

 

[MK26]

i like the way these guys are thinking

now all we need is for them to follow through on nf/jj/gg

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Not before Warioware but ONLY with Ashley's Song.

 

[WindMajor]

At least it's better than that one song in Distant Planet.

You know, that one... x__x

 

[Browny]

Whats wrong with ashleys song?

Ya'll just haters.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Who's that little girl living in that haunted mansion?

YOU BETTER KNOW MY NAME BECAUSE ITS MOTHER ****ING ASHELY STUPID ****ING *******

 

[Browny]

Lol censor dodge

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

^ I laughed admittedly.

No joke, I think the Ashley Song is legit.

 

[John12346]

Guys guys

Just hack it onto YI:B or SV, seriously

Here's the .brstm file. Go nuts.

Also, no love for Mona's Pizza? :(

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

wow. "don't make ggs and japes legal, they promote camping and take time" is dumb argument. just because you personally don't like them, doesn't make them any more or less competitively sound. i personally love all of those stages. but if say for some reason people just couldn't learn to live norfair's hazards (even though we except halberd) and said it was to game interfering, then so be it. but the other 2 are perfectly good stages that i doubt they will find to game breaking unless they focus on select characters (which they said they aren't going to do because of standard issues iirc)

 

[Cubone]

Is holding my breath for any discussion on PTAD just a waste of time?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

@Cubone

Probably...at least for a long while.

 

[Tin Man]

I'm just going to ask people now:

"Hey do you wanna go to Castle Siege?"

..

I'll take you up on that deal. if you CP Siege vs me, I'll <3 you forever

We can let you know what we're discussing, but we can't give you any details of what each member said about the stages and such/what the verdict is looking like. We have a pretty clear "Leaking Policy" intact.

But we are looking at Jungle Japes (pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere), as well as Green Greens. Discussions about other stages could end up being opened. With the impending attention of a few more members, we may wait on a few things.

Green Greens? No thanks, I'd rather have Jungle Japes and Norfair over that stage anyday.

boo


lol just in this post guys (good to be an Olimar main )

 

[T-block]

Also, no love for Mona's Pizza? :(

John#'s with the win. I would actually put that song on my MP3 player.

Ai no Uta is legit as well though, Twinkie >=(

Throwing my support behind PTAD discussion as well.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Also throwing my support behind PTAD.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't support PTAD.

As for questions, does the BBR-RC think they can reach out to Europe and other out of the country areas?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Imo they can reach at least Germany if they finally get rid of the last remaining broken stages in their list - namely Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise. Other than that our stage lists are identical and a lot of people are open for 7 starter stages as well. I also approve of CS as the 7th choice and I can see Germany eventually adapting to the unity ruleset completely once said stages are finally banned. It's just a question of time until at least one of them is banned imo.

I'm personally not a supporter of how the LGL situation is handled. I realize that the LGL is probably the most viable and acceptable compromise solution to the problem that this ruleset's flawed timeout clause evokes but I'd differentiate it a bit more:

- Characters whose planking only serves for stalling purposes. They can not attack a character from far away so the "better position" argument holds no truth [since when is being closer to the death zone the superior position?] and they can't hope to achieve anything by planking other than to abuse their invincibility to stay not attackable. They should have a limit of 30 LGs [MK, DK, Bowser, Marth, GW]
- Characters who can attack from the ledge, while remaining largely unattackable. A point can be made that being on the ledge for them has other purposes than only stalling as they can attack opponents from a larger range with their projectiles. Limiting their LG's to 30 would limit those characters' viability unlike the former mentioned characters who can only use planking to stall [and thus purposefully abuse a gray area of the stalling rule]. They should have a limit of only 60 LG's [Pit, Samus, Yoshi, ROB, Pikachu].
- Every character who falls into neither category should have no LGL at all.

Finally, I'd like to make the request that the committée starts discussing the advantages of a 10 minute timer and takes it into serious consideration as an option for the future. People who agree with this movement should echo this request!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Gheb, there is no more reason for a non-MK character to have a ledge-grab limit than there is for Snake to have a grenade limit. Don't try and balance the game yourself with surgical rules where it isn't necessary.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't berate me on things you don't have the capacity to understand, Mr. Nobody.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Don't berate me on things you don't have the capacity to understand

I hope you feel better about yourself now. Your post accomplished nothing other than to be condescending.

I can see you in your chair right now "Gah, I can't believe this nobody has the nerve to disagree with me"

As you were thinking that, your monocle popped out and landed in your cup of tea.

Mr. Nobody.

Argumentum ad hominem. My notoriety and ability to play the game have nothing to do with my ability to bring up a good point. Not sure why you even brought it up, considering you aren't really that special yourself.

 

[Flayl]

Bowser doesn't have invincibility on aerial UpB because Sakurai is a ****

The hitbox is prety good though

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lol I honestly don't give a crap about you. I'm just sick of hearing the same old textbook counter non-arguments of "surgical rules" and "balancing the game oneself". Do you even use your brain when you post that? Do you understand what you're saying at all? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING? You've literally ignored every point I made in regards to planking being a general stalling tactic just to make a completely shallow point that every ****** and his mom could've seen coming from a hundred miles away because it's been made so often. I think the ad-hominem was quite fitting here for that failure of a post you made.

Edit @Flayl: I was just giving examples. If Bowser doesn't actually fall into that category it shouldn't be a problem to not give him a LGL anyway. I was mainly trying to describe the differences of planking that a lot of people just seem to overlook. Some characters can't do anything other than stalling by planking. Why should we accept this abuse of a gray zone within the ruleset? That's not an MK specific problem and it's not arbitrary either.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I was actually referring to the second dot point which had nothing to do with stalling.

But your first point is pretty lolzy anyway, "closer to the death zone, so it isn't a better position?" xD That's just dumb. Position isn't just where you are on the stage, it also factors in who you are, who your opponent is and what you are doing. It's position as in "status" rather than position as in "location".

 

[Gifts]

Don't berate me on things you don't have the capacity to understand, Mr. Nobody.

Who are you again?

In all seriousness i am happy to the BB-RC are taking small steps forward. 7 stage strike system is the way to go because it seemed like all games would end up either going to bf or sv.

Congrats to the BB-RC on these new changes. I'm looking forward to more changes like this in the future.