The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[SaveMeJebus]

It's a legit strategy coming from a really good player. Most players have to win the first game in order to not get ****ed up by these stages in the last match of the set.

 

[Player-1]

Jebus is mad he doesn't know how to play on RC

 

[Chuee]

Rainbow is a silly stage.

 

[BSP]

I can see why people think rainbow is silly

But I don't see what's wrong with brinstar minus MK

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I can see why people think rainbow is silly

But I don't see what's wrong with brinstar minus MK

The fact that there is no minus MK

 

[NickRiddle]

Why is RC still legal???

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=107313

Wait...
Are you serious?

Really?


The BRC is not going to ban a stage because MK is too good there.
Also... isn't that how MK has always played on RC? I mean, unless you're really overconfident...
And even then, MK doesn't always have a winning MU on RC, so your argument is moot.













2 stage-bans would be nice though~

 

[WindMajor]

It's a legit strategy

Yes, yes it is.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Wait...
Are you serious?

Really?


The BRC is not going to ban a stage because MK is too good there.
Also... isn't that how MK has always played on RC? I mean, unless you're really overconfident...
And even then, MK doesn't always have a winning MU on RC, so your argument is moot.













2 stage-bans would be nice though~

Who does he lose to on that stage?

 

[Gifts]

Who does he lose to on that stage?

Wolf...

 

[Steam]

I have an Idea! We could just ban meta kni- *shot*

 

[King Funk]

[*]There is a Ledge Grab Limit of 35 for Meta Knight and 50 for all other characters.

The BRC is not going to ban a stage because MK is too good there.

So you have rules made specially against MK but you wouldn't ban a stage where he only has +2 and above matchups on.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Jebus is mad he doesn't know how to play on RC

Player-1 is mad he didn't make it out of pools at SIIS5....

49: Mr. H
49: Arbon
49: Coop
49: CREWS
49: Michael
49: Offthehzay
49: Player-1
49: Fields
57: Commander Gregorious
57: Brice
57: Auspher
57: Kaon
57: ROF
57: Sombra
57: Blitz

 

[WindMajor]

I have an Idea! We could just ban meta kni- *shot*

I agree with this ide- *shot*

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

if they camp the boat just go really high on the 2nd part...

 

[NickRiddle]

Who does he lose to on that stage?

From what people say it's arguably Pikachu, GW, and Wario.
Also, if he goes even with characters on the stage it still is not an auto-win.
Hell, if the MK cannot get a lead, his big advantage of being able to run away is negated...

 

[NickRiddle]

So you have rules made specially against MK but you wouldn't ban a stage where he only has +2 and above matchups on.

Well, the specific rule you posted makes sense.
MK's planking is statistically unbeatable, so his LGL is lower because he could, in theory, stay 100% safe during the 50 ledge-grabs whereas other characters have a chance to be hit.

So, yes.

 

[Chuee]

From what people say it's arguably Pikachu, GW, and Wario.
Also, if he goes even with characters on the stage it still is not an auto-win.
Hell, if the MK cannot get a lead, his big advantage of being able to run away is negated...

I doubt any of those 3 actually legit have an advantage against MK on cruise.

 

[NickRiddle]

I doubt any of those 3 actually legit have an advantage against MK on cruise.

Would you agree that they don't auto-lose here?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

From what people say it's arguably Pikachu, GW, and Wario.
Also, if he goes even with characters on the stage it still is not an auto-win.
Hell, if the MK cannot get a lead, his big advantage of being able to run away is negated...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9zVq5BlWls&t=5m18s

This went from a close match on Smashville to a two stock on rainbow. I don't think wario goes even with MK on that stage. The only character that might go even with MK on that stage is G&W so the only way of playing on that stage without a disadvantage is to pick up either MK or G&W (anyone with a pickachu secondary isn't going to be winning an MK on that stage).

 

[Player-1]

Player-1 is mad he didn't make it out of pools at SIIS5....

I haven't ever traveled out of GA >.>

 

[T-block]

Are you upset because he gets too much of a BOOST from RC, or because he's simply too GOOD on RC?

 

[Chuee]

Would you agree that they don't auto-lose here?

Of course.
10char

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Are you upset because he gets too much of a BOOST from RC, or because he's simply too GOOD on RC?

I think both MK and this stage can't exist together. I would rather lose the stage than the character though

 

[T-block]

You totally did not answer my question.

Why can't they exist together?

Is it because you think MK gets too much of a boost on this stage?
Or is it because you think he is just too good on this stage?

 

[NickRiddle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9zVq5BlWls&t=5m18s

This went from a close match on Smashville to a two stock on rainbow. I don't think wario goes even with MK on that stage. The only character that might go even with MK on that stage is G&W so the only way of playing on that stage without a disadvantage is to pick up either MK or G&W (anyone with a pickachu secondary isn't going to be winning an MK on that stage).

*Have an argument.*
*Somebody proposes an idea contrary.*
*Pick one example of first argument being true.*
*Irrefutable proof*

I cannot argue this too much as I'm at work, but when I get home I'll go looking for matches on RC against MK where MK loses.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@T-block, I think he gets too much of a boost. He can stall on the parts of the stage where his opponents have a chance at fighting him and he completely destroys most characters on the rising part of the stage.

 

[T-block]

Then why are ICs and FD allowed to exist together? ICs get a HUGE boost on FD when compared to their average performance on other stages. It's arguably a larger boost than MK on RC.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I haven't ever traveled out of GA >.>

lol I was really shocked at first when I saw this person, then I saw him play Marth and I was like oh....

 

[Blacknight99923]

You guys are riding on jebus simply because your not inclined to agree with his opinion..

If you seriously needed video evidence for that blog he posted you clearly don't watch ANY set involving a high level metaknight on that stage.

Secondly its players like Raziek that annoy the hell out of me when they get they go "your dumb surgical changes are stupid" and then proceed to support Banning metaknight.

ISN'T THAT A SURGICAL CHANGE.

Metaknight isn't going to be banned at this rate, yet you guys seem to have this infaliable logic about why brinstar and RC should be legal despite supporting degenerate gameplay and tactics and then decide metaknight should be banned because he's so good.
WHAT

Everyone should know by now the metaknight discussion goes around in circles forever and ever, I don't see why you think banning him is actually going to happen.


Picking wario pikachu G&W?

SERIOUSLY????

Why should ANYONE invest time into those characters so they can fight metaknight? Why wouldn't the majority of people just pick metaknight who in this ruleset is going to give you a significantly GREATER advantage in general, hell with a metaknight I can cp characters TOO this stage.



Look I understand the BBRC doesn't want to just ban a stage based on some forum debate, but would it be willing to allow tournaments to test what happens when brinstar and RC aren't legal at the same time?


sigh at least BPC hasn't ever been hypocritical about stages and banning characters.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Then why are ICs and FD allowed to exist together? ICs get a HUGE boost on FD when compared to their average performance on other stages. It's arguably a larger boost than MK on RC.

There are still characters that have an advantage on that stage especially when you consider the fact that players now have a LGL of 50 that they can abuse. I think that ROB still has an advantage on this stage. No one has an advantage on MK, especially in rainbow cruise.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

look up that vid where that ike beat the MK because the donut fell on him while he was gliding after shuttle loop and ****hed him just to far down to grab a ledge. (so... much.... looooool)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Secondly its players like Raziek that annoy the hell out of me when they get they go "your dumb surgical changes are stupid" and then proceed to support Banning metaknight.

ISN'T THAT A SURGICAL CHANGE.

No, it's a broad change. Surgical is going "This character is broken, lets try to nerf him with lots of little rules targeting him". Broad changes are "This character is broken, let's ban him."

Metaknight isn't going to be banned at this rate, yet you guys seem to have this infaliable logic about why brinstar and RC should be legal despite supporting degenerate gameplay and tactics and then decide metaknight should be banned because he's so good.
WHAT

Everyone should know by now the metaknight discussion goes around in circles forever and ever, I don't see why you think banning him is actually going to happen.

There are actually hints going around that they may be looking at banning MK, consider that all of the "anti-ban"s claims back at Poll 4 have fallen apart now. >_>

Also: the stages aren't the common factor: MK is. MK is the one causing the tactics, not the stage. They are specific to him, not the stage (RC is air camping, Brinstar is sharking). MK can play just as gay on other stages (I'm looking at you Delfino).

The only logical way to solve the problem is to get rid of the source. The stages aren't the source.

 

[Life]

Uh, Soren, Raziek hasn't even been in this thread for some time.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Uh, Soren, Raziek hasn't even been in this thread for some time.

No its just an example of peoples MK ban sentiment and double standards, the vast majority of liberal stage supporters have been hypocritical bar BPC.

they want to ban mk are opposed to surgical changes, and are against banning RC or brinstar


and thank you for remembering my name.


my problem isn't with a 7 stage starter or a 9 stage starter or a 13 stage starter its with stages that aren't good for the metagame, which is why I have no issue with this ruleset change, logically you should start on the stage thats most fair for everyone. My current issue with doing that in the current ruleset is allowing RC and brinstar or other such stages as starters.



I would want TO's to be allowed to test a ruleset in which RC and brinstar are either

A. not legal
B. not legal at the same time

the vast majority of players in socal (i've spoken too but if someone wants to speak up )do NOT favor banning metaknight but DO have an issue with RC and brinstar legal at the same time.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It is stupid to ban a character when results show that he isn't broken on neutral stages. You take away stages that give advantages to grounded characters such as Green Greens, Jungle Japes and Pictochat,yet you leave stages that are more broken such as Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar. You guys also never showed any evidence as to why those stages even got banned.

 

[NickRiddle]

You guys are riding on jebus simply because your not inclined to agree with his opinion..

If you seriously needed video evidence for that blog he posted you clearly don't watch ANY set involving a high level metaknight on that stage.

Secondly its players like Raziek that annoy the hell out of me when they get they go "your dumb surgical changes are stupid" and then proceed to support Banning metaknight.

ISN'T THAT A SURGICAL CHANGE.
Pretty sure surgical change implies changing the game for one character instead of all of them.

Metaknight isn't going to be banned at this rate, yet you guys seem to have this infaliable logic about why brinstar and RC should be legal despite supporting degenerate gameplay and tactics and then decide metaknight should be banned because he's so good.
WHAT
Does Rainbow really offer the most (or second most if people argue Brinstar does) degenerative gameplay by MK? Wouldn't Delfino offer almost all of the advantages that RC does? I mean... there's water... but...
It's sharkable during the "main" transformations.
Most of the transformations are huge, giving MK room to run around.
The water, and lack of edges on the water parts, can help MK "gimp" characters that might normally survive getting hit off-stage.

Everyone should know by now the metaknight discussion goes around in circles forever and ever, I don't see why you think banning him is actually going to happen.


Picking wario pikachu G&W?

SERIOUSLY????

Why should ANYONE invest time into those characters so they can fight metaknight? Why wouldn't the majority of people just pick metaknight who in this ruleset is going to give you a significantly GREATER advantage in general, hell with a metaknight I can cp characters TOO this stage.
Damn, picking a character to help you CP/against your opponent CPing you? That never happens. Nobody ever changes characters when they're picked to a stage their character doesn't like.
Right?


Look I understand the BBRC doesn't want to just ban a stage based on some forum debate, but would it be willing to allow tournaments to test what happens when brinstar and RC aren't legal at the same time?
Think about this for a minute.
The MK has to win either game 1 or 3 if they "auto-win" on Brinstar/RC, right?
What if that just... happened on another neutral level...
Wouldn't that mean that the MK wouldn't need Brinstar/RC to win, and that it just happened to be easier there?
I mean... if you win game one, you can obviously go to a similar level on game 3 and win again.
Still not sure why MK having an "auto-win" is such a terrible thing anyway. Don't ICs/Diddy/Falco have an "auto-win" on SV/FD? Guess we're banning FD too.


sigh at least BPC hasn't ever been hypocritical about stages and banning characters.

Responses in red.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

2 Stage bans doesn't solve anything.
RC and Brinstar are broken with MK.
You are NEVER EVER allowed to counterpick Brinstar (RC is less extreme I think) because you could encounter a pocket MK and gets *****.
Thats the problem.
I LOVE Brinstar, I really like playing there, but I'm never ever allowed to counterpick it because my opponent could just go MK.
Thats so stupid :/

'i love playing on final d but i think my opponent has a pocket ics, so cping there is probably a bad idea'

and 2 stage bans does solve the rc/brinstar dilemma, actually. Two near-instant-win stages, two bans. Wheres the problem?

Bingo. ^_^

If I think my opponent has a pocket ICs, Diddy, Falco, whatever, I will ban FD. Your issue is already present in the german ruleset with pocket ICs; see also my set against Gale at S@S1 where I beat him game one, and then he CP'd me to FD with his Ice Climbers. Stupid argument. NEXT!

Get on Skype, I will NOT explain here with BPC around. He knows my opinion on it and has no legitimate counter-argument which is why he tries to discredit me constantly. And I don't really want to have the same debate all over again but I can tell you in private easily.

My memory is shoddy... I do remember the "logic does not matter it's all subjective" argument very well, though...

You guys are riding on jebus simply because your not inclined to agree with his opinion..

If you seriously needed video evidence for that blog he posted you clearly don't watch ANY set involving a high level metaknight on that stage.

Then help us out. Provide a match on the stage of a pro MK abusing this strategy against a character who does not inherently suck *** on RC (for example Olimar or Falco; no, I am not counting M2K vs Brood when it was ****ing close and RC is without a doubt Olimar's absolute worst stage). I mean, it's so easy... I don't doubt you'll have no trouble at all.

Secondly its players like Raziek that annoy the hell out of me when they get they go "your dumb surgical changes are stupid" and then proceed to support Banning metaknight.

ISN'T THAT A SURGICAL CHANGE.

Uh... No? Get your definitions straight; flat-out banning a character/stage/whatever is not surgical.

Metaknight isn't going to be banned at this rate, yet you guys seem to have this infaliable logic about why brinstar and RC should be legal despite supporting degenerate gameplay and tactics and then decide metaknight should be banned because he's so good.

Keyword: supporting. Also, only debatably degenerate.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It is stupid to ban a character when results show that he isn't broken on neutral stages. You take away stages that give advantages to grounded characters such as Green Greens, Jungle Japes and Pictochat,yet you leave stages that are more broken such as Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar. You guys also never showed any evidence as to why those stages even got banned.

*Sigh*

So right but for exactly the wrong reasons...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I say we ban them all. ALL OF THEM

 

[B.A.M.]

I know Gdubs does just fine on Rainbow. I dont see much of it now, but I remember my friends Snake bringing jason to last stock high % on RC back in the day. Of course the latter statement comes from my own experience of a singular event, so its not the greatest of evidence. I however do believe RC isnt as bad as people make it out to be; people simply dont understand how to play the stage.

You have to take a different approach to it. I never play Brinstar and think it sucks for my character; however the rest of my community says otherwise. If you dont put time into these stages then of course ull get ***** by MK; his approach to the stage is very basic. I think for other characters, you have to be more observant of the parts of the stage in order to compete.

Is it easier for MK? Yes. Is it an auto win vs every character? No.

Jebus; lets smash.