The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[[FBC] ESAM]

I honestly don't think that there are enough stages in our list right now to have 2 stage bans, even though technically there are.

 

[NickRiddle]

It is stupid to ban a character when results show that he isn't broken on neutral stages. You take away stages that give advantages to grounded characters such as Green Greens, Jungle Japes and Pictochat,yet you leave stages that are more broken such as Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar. You guys also never showed any evidence as to why those stages even got banned.

Green Greens:
The blocks fall randomly, and they randomly have bombs.
That's the argument.

Japes:
I don't know any real reasons to ban Japes, but the stage is also amazing for MK so it goes against your argument.

Picto:
The biggest argument, IIRC, was the diagonal line deciding it was time for you to have no ledge, even before it showed any signs that the line was going to show up...
And sometimes every other recovery option will get you killed, so don't bring up not going for the ledge.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Green Greens:
The blocks fall randomly, and they randomly have bombs.
That's the argument.

Japes:
I don't know any real reasons to ban Japes, but the stage is also amazing for MK so it goes against your argument.

Picto:
The biggest argument, IIRC, was the diagonal line deciding it was time for you to have no ledge, even before it showed any signs that the line was going to show up...
And sometimes every other recovery option will get you killed, so don't bring up not going for the ledge.

I guess the current stage list doesn't have any stages with random elements so I'll give you those.

MK might be good in japes, but a lot of people would agree that Falco has the advantage on that stage against him. Diddy Kong does good against him on that stage and so does DK.


@ BPC, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXw3j524JHE

How do you explain this? RC doesn't seem like a bad stage for DK against any character that would go even with him on any other stage.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AN8DNOcnjU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkKJDA0yn_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEPflcblTW4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbnCcHhoQ6U#t=5m8s (Not only did G&W win, but he CP'd RC against a MK)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bml1qzf8uBk



Pikachu, Marth, Snake, G&W, Diddy are all beating MK on RC. Not only just MK, but some of the best MKs, including Anti, M2K, Seibrik, and Tyrant. MK is broken on this stage, right?

 

[Blacknight99923]

Nick I'm taking time to multiquote this its really not hard you quote the post and you hit the quotation box around the text you want to quote. Please do not respond with "answers in red" now that you have been told how to quote correctly

oes Rainbow really offer the most (or second most if people argue Brinstar does) degenerative gameplay by MK? Wouldn't Delfino offer almost all of the advantages that RC does? I mean... there's water... but...
It's sharkable during the "main" transformations.
Most of the transformations are huge, giving MK room to run around.
The water, and lack of edges on the water parts, can help MK "gimp" characters that might normally survive getting hit off-stage.

delphino does create degenerate play, but I'm not going to say "ban delphino", I have better things to do with my time. I don't see mk dittos everytime someone picks delphino. I only see timeouts on delphino, I don't always see metaknights actually WINNING those timeouts though (referencing tyrant)

Does Rainbow really offer the most (or second most if people argue Brinstar does) degenerative gameplay by MK? Wouldn't Delfino offer almost all of the advantages that RC does? I mean... there's water... but...
It's sharkable during the "main" transformations.
Most of the transformations are huge, giving MK room to run around.
The water, and lack of edges on the water parts, can help MK "gimp" characters that might normally survive getting hit off-stage.

Yes this is correct. But I'm not going to bother petitioning for delphino to be banned LOL.

Think about this for a minute.
The MK has to win either game 1 or 3 if they "auto-win" on Brinstar/RC, right?
What if that just... happened on another neutral level...
Wouldn't that mean that the MK wouldn't need Brinstar/RC to win, and that it just happened to be easier there?
I mean... if you win game one, you can obviously go to a similar level on game 3 and win again.
Still not sure why MK having an "auto-win" is such a terrible thing anyway. Don't ICs/Diddy/Falco have an "auto-win" on SV/FD? Guess we're banning FD too.

I don't understand what your trying to say? that they can win game 1 or 3 so they don't need their counterpicks they can just outplay their opponent anyway?

I don't understand this statement.

the second part about diddy ic's falco would probably make more sense if you explained it since I highly doubt that's what you ACTUALLY think.



and what is the exact definition of surgical?

inb4peoplepostdoublestandards

@ Esam

then why is metaknight taking almost half of the money now days? Surely the high level players (who place in the money, its not randoms winning money with metaknight) wouldn't need to go metaknight now days if those weren't isolated incidents.

edit sorry 40% of the money on the last update iirc. abiet players may only go metaknight for a small portion of the tournament, that being said I wonder where their going metaknight?

 

[Player-1]

Lol at Diddy doing good against MK on japes...

 

[NickRiddle]

Nick I'm taking time to multiquote this its really not hard you quote the post and you hit the quotation box around the text you want to quote. Please do not respond with "answers in red" now that you have been told how to quote correctly

I was at work, and it was easier. You'll get over it.

delphino does create degenerate play, but I'm not going to say "ban delphino", I have better things to do with my time. I don't see mk dittos everytime someone picks delphino. I only see timeouts on delphino, I don't always see metaknights actually WINNING those timeouts though (referencing tyrant)

I don't see MK dittos everytime somebody picks RC either. Maybe it's just FL, but we've gotten pretty good at that stage. I use my main, ESAM uses his main, Shaky uses his main, MVD uses his main, Poltergust uses his main, etc.

Yes this is correct. But I'm not going to bother petitioning for delphino to be banned LOL.

Why not? It seems fairly auto-win to me. Look at all those features!

I don't understand what your trying to say? that they can win game 1 or 3 so they don't need their counterpicks they can just outplay their opponent anyway?

I'm trying to say that Mk doesn't auto-win sets because of these stages, and your suggestion implied just that. If TOs host Brinstar/RC banned tournaments... the results shouldn't change much.

the second part about diddy ic's falco would probably make more sense if you explained it since I highly doubt that's what you ACTUALLY think.

I obviously don't think that. I also don't think MK has an auto-win on RC/Brinstar. I was just trying to make a comparison.

and what is the exact definition of surgical?

inb4peoplepostdoublestandards

That one I don't know. I just wanted to argue.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AN8DNOcnjU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkKJDA0yn_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEPflcblTW4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbnCcHhoQ6U#t=5m8s (Not only did G&W win, but he CP'd RC against a MK)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bml1qzf8uBk



Pikachu, Marth, Snake, G&W, Diddy are all beating MK on RC. Not only just MK, but some of the best MKs, including Anti, M2K, Seibrik, and Tyrant. MK is broken on this stage, right?

1. Didn't you two stock Tyrant first game? It seems to me like Tyrant didn't know the MU. Do You have a similar video where you do good against someone who actually knows the MU (Like Seibrik)?

2. Same as the first video. A video where he does this to a WC MK would be great

3. Controller Johns/ The fact that they had already split

4. I agreed that MK goes even with G&W here

5. The only video I can truly give you credit for.

 

[John12346]

Also, the first and second videos had MU dependent shenanigans going on, resulting in really low percent kills on MK, and they could've easily happened on any other stage...

Also, ESAM, does this truly eclipse the staggering amount of videos on YT showing MK winning on RC?

 

[Player-1]

I don't see how the match vs vinnie is irrelevant. You agree that Mk goes even with G&W here, but isn't that what we're discussing? MK beating all chars here? Well I guess not if G&W is going even here. You can't really use the "oh he doesn't know the MU, doesn't count" when you're talking about top players.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

My turn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFYD2guRoo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y8RKRthLsw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXgp8J1PMno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXZZGEoN-1U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNkaVep6KmM&feature=related

 

[NickRiddle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqO1X7QMyKQ4:55

 

[ErikG]

We all know RC is a good stage for MK, ESAM is arguing that it isn't an autowin and showed matches of top players on RC in which the MK loses. Everyone knows that most of the time, MK will win on RC. Just like Ice Climbers on Final Destination.

 

[Player-1]

My turn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVFYD2guRoo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y8RKRthLsw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXgp8J1PMno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXZZGEoN-1U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNkaVep6KmM&feature=related

*clicks vid, looks at time*
*notices how none of them go past 6 minutes*
*closes tab*

Timeouts SURE are a problem on this stage /sarcasm.


Yeah, no one is saying MK doesn't get an advantage on this stage. Obviously, other characters are still beating MKs here =/= autowin.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

*clicks vid, looks at time*
*notices how none of them go past 6 minutes*
*closes tab*

Timeouts SURE are a problem on this stage /sarcasm.


Yeah, no one is saying MK doesn't get an advantage on this stage. Obviously, other characters are still beating MKs here =/= autowin.

You guys didn't show me a match where the MK timed himself out.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I was at work, and it was easier. You'll get over it.

I forgive you....*puts hand on heart

I don't see MK dittos everytime somebody picks RC either. Maybe it's just FL, but we've gotten pretty good at that stage. I use my main, ESAM uses his main, Shaky uses his main, MVD uses his main, Poltergust uses his main, etc.

I'm more inclined to believe its an FL thing, top 7 on the PR all uses metaknight and we see metaknights dittos almsot everytime someone picks it.

Why not? It seems fairly auto-win to me. Look at all those features!

paper=/= match....but I think you just want to argue

I'm trying to say that Mk doesn't auto-win sets because of these stages, and your suggestion implied just that. If TOs host Brinstar/RC banned tournaments... the results shouldn't change much.

I don't think they'd change much initially, i just think we'd see less mks next to peoples names since there isn't as much reason to pick metaknight

I obviously don't think that. I also don't think MK has an auto-win on RC/Brinstar. I was just trying to make a comparison.

No its probably not autowin. To be quite honest those stages probably aren't as bad as I or most people make them sound, a large part of the mk problem is this discussion on forums and videos.

People see metaknight dittos, they'd rather ditto, the majority of sets now days you see on YT (that are important) almost always have a metaknight involved. When coupled with these counterpicks that do give him quite an advantage it only reinforces itself even at top level play and we start seeing more next to peoples names in results threads.

I mean think of the SiiS5 stream? I can't speak for day 1 but Day 2 had mk dittos in I think every set but 3 of them.

That one I don't know. I just wanted to argue.

Your a ZSS main, of course you'd want to be annoying

 

[Player-1]

You guys didn't show me a match where the MK timed himself out.

okay
1. Why would an MK be stupid enough to time himself out? That's him basically forfeiting the match.
2. What does having other chars time MK out have to do with anything?

 

[BSP]

I've got it.

If you CP brin or RC, you can't pick MK. How's that?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

okay
1. Why would an MK be stupid enough to time himself out? That's him basically forfeiting the match.
2. What does having other chars time MK out have to do with anything?

If the MK fails to time the opponent out, he is basically timing himself out. You guys didn't show me matches like this, so I didn't either

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I'm not saying MK doesn't win most of the time on RC, but I'm proving that it is just a strong counterpick, not anything worth banning. That is the point of a counterpick, you are supposed to win most of the time. I won almost every game on Pictochat I ever played, but that doesn't make it bannable on that merit.

Metaknight is taking most of the money nowadays because

1. He is the best character
2. More people play him than any other character

Not because of RC/Brinstar.

 

[John12346]

Well, ESAM, you can't deny that MK getting a really strong stage on his counterpick plays a role in his successes...

Everything else in that post was agreeable, I guess.

 

[Player-1]

If the MK fails to time the opponent out, he is basically timing himself out. You guys didn't show me matches like this, so I didn't either

No, an MK timing himself out is him stalling the clock out even though he is losing the whole match. Why would we show you a match though where another char times MK out, that's irrelevant to the discussion we're having.

 

[Steam]

this can all be easily solved guys.

A- Give us two stage bans
B- Ban Met- *shot*

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm not saying MK doesn't win most of the time on RC, but I'm proving that it is just a strong counterpick, not anything worth banning. That is the point of a counterpick, you are supposed to win most of the time. I won almost every game on Pictochat I ever played, but that doesn't make it bannable on that merit.

Metaknight is taking most of the money nowadays because

1. He is the best character
2. More people play him than any other character

Not because of RC/Brinstar.

Then that means that there is a problem with the counter pick system. The player that wins the first game will always have the advantage.With this stage list, why couldn't we just stage strike a counter pick? Loser chooses the final stage from the remaining two or three stages. A loser of a match souldn't be rewarded with a strong advantageous counter pick

 

[Steam]

Then that means that there is a problem with the counter pick system. The player that wins the first game will always have the advantage.With this stage list, why couldn't we just stage strike a counter pick? Loser chooses the final stage from the remaining two or three stages. A loser of a match souldn't be rewarded with an advantageous counter pick

that would probably make MK even better. because against MK usually two games in a 3 game set will be on stages MK would strike in that situation... due neutrals being his worst stages generally.

 

[John12346]

Just for the record, there are documented losses of ICs and Diddy on FD.

Incidentally, to MK, among a few other characters.

 

[T-block]

I think now is a wonderful time to bring up one of the lovely hybrid stage selection systems that various people have brought up =)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

that would probably make MK even better. because against MK usually two games in a 3 game set will be on stages MK would strike in that situation... due neutrals being his worst stages generally.

But there is no reason why you should be playing on your best stage just because you lost. Who decided that the loser of a match should choose the stage in a game where the stage can mean the difference between winning the match and losing the set?

 

[Player-1]

right Jebus...there's no reason why you should be playing on your best stage just because you lost. That's why the winner bans it.

 

[Tagxy]

What exactly is the issue with two stage bans? The fact that theres even one stage ban is pretty arbitrary anyways.

64 has 4 stages and no stage bans
Melee has 9 Stages and one stage ban
Brawl has 13 stages currently

And melees 9 stages masks the fact that 4 of those stages are basically different variations of battlefield.

And a 9 minute timer seems to be a pretty popular idea judging by adhds thread.

 

[Kuro~]

10 minute >.>

 

[Tagxy]

9 makes sense since its 3 minutes a stock. Melees 8 minute timer I heard was based on 2 minutes a stock.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

right Jebus...there's no reason why you should be playing on your best stage just because you lost. That's why the winner bans it.

They still get to go to there second best stage. There is no reason why that should happen. The stage they play on should be as fair to both players as possible

 

[Player-1]

the point to CPing is to get an advantage. I guess you're saying Diddy shouldn't be able to go to Smashville since it's his 2nd best stage too now right?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

the point to CPing is to get an advantage. I guess you're saying Diddy shouldn't be able to go to Smashville since it's his 2nd best stage too now right?

That is up to both players to decide. There is no reason to give a player the advantage for losing. Can you think of a good reason for this?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

To increase depth, because if we didn't, the only stage that would be played on is the starter.

 

[Metakill]

So much starters xd
in my opinion the starters should be SV, FD and BF.
The most neutrals of the game...

** OFF topic
Anyway.... WHY this thread is now a pro ban meta knight?
Tier list thread is now a ban/not ban thread and now this...
You talk about Metaknight advantage...
What about Snake advantage on FD or Halberd? (don't say s*** about is advantage of mk... Utilt talks in that stage)
And... Advantage to Yoshi in Castle Siege... Meta Knight can be KO'd by Release Grab. (same at dittos)
And yeah... i'm a MK mainer who before was a Marth/Snake mainer... but tier list talks... money talks...
And i think i'm the only one who LOVES to see a MK dittos... that remember me Melee... more fast...

** now ON topic...
why pictochat get banned?
And.. only be simetry.... no 7th stage to counterpicks?
i edited my Custom SSS code set... and now looks ugly u.u 7 stages and 6... pff xD

 

[SaveMeJebus]

To increase depth, because if we didn't, the only stage that would be played on is the starter.

Ban the six stater stages that your opponent will most likely use. Problem solved

 

[Player-1]

That is up to both players to decide. There is no reason to give a player the advantage for losing. Can you think of a good reason for this?

I'm not arguing this and I don't want to argue it. I'm just arguing why RC should stay as a CP not that the loser shouldn't be able to CP their stage.

 

[T-block]

Jebus, just stop. You stopped making sense a while ago, and are now all over the place.

Strike from full list until three stages remaining. Play on those three stages. Should be considereddddd