The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[_Kadaj_]

How about banning Brinstar and leaving the other current stages available in the Unity Ruleset for about 4-5 months and see where the metagame would expand.

No matter how much anyone denies it, it is a serious crutch for MK to take advantage of and is a big determining factor on a lot of sets involving MK turn out.

This can be even further backed up with MLG's statistics (the match sheets that the ref's used to document how each match played out.)

The fact that the stage forces you to the air with a penalty as big as damaging you if you don't give up positioning is a pretty bad thing, even worse when MK thrives off of opponents losing position and being in the air. Now that coupled with the fact that YOU MUST put yourself in that kind of situation OR choose not to and STILL take damage while then being forced in that position (now with hit stun) is a pretty bad trade off when considering none of the other stages deal with the same kind of situation, on what pretty much falls on two terms. Fall into a situation where being damaged is at about a 85% rating, or be forced into that said situation with about a 5% increase on chances of being hit.

 

[WindMajor]

How about banning RC instead.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

How about banning neither and dealing with the real problem eh? People are always going to complain that "MK has too strong of CP options compared to the others" until we have maybe 5 stages left. Obviously, that system does not work for us.

Again: BBR-C already stated they wouldn't ban either stage. This discussion is frankly, quite pointless.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i honestly don't see why this couldn't be solved with 2 stage bans. i mean MK on RC isn't bad for my character, but it's a rare MU exception and the MU itself is still ridiculous. but i see the problem for other chars who just aren't good (against MK at least) at both of these stages and i personally would love to be able to force MK to not play on a stage that logic says he will be comfortable on from much practice.

 

[_Kadaj_]

RC doesn't force the same situations upon you though, you aren't forced to be in positions with forced damage as a factor.

on RC there is always another place to be, that doesn't result in you being directly above or in front of MK in the air. Or on a platform that is small enough to do about 2-3 aerials that push you off the platform into the said forced damage or lowering your shield to a point of poking or breaking, because you didn't have the option to just fall off the platform and drift away to safety.

Most characters while they aren't the best on RC (Falco, Toon Link, Olimar, Pikachu, etc.) They can very much so hold their own on the stage, while on Brinstar those other factors hurt them so much more.



While 2 stage bans could be good, it's only a substitute for saying let's just ban RC and Brinstar. RC is definitely a better choice stage wise, which is why the majority of the time people just ban Brinstar and opt for the "lesser of two evils" and play on RC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TIv5mo2LbI Now with that being said, how much differently do you think this set would have turned out had Dabuz not been forced to ban Brinstar.


Again the stage is not similar to ANY of the other CP's that we have in this ruleset, and the ones that kind of resemble some of it's traits are all moot when the fact that you're FORCED into a 50-50 mix up because of the acid, and even then 50-50 wouldn't even do it justice. Saying a 75-25 chance would fit the bill because you don't gain anything from avoiding the forced damage as you are now airborne.

 

[ErikG]

On RC MK's only real strong part is the rising part and maybe all 5 seconds of the falling part.

 

[_Kadaj_]

True, and even then the gravity pulling both parities down makes it VERY hard to get anything solid off. So it often results in neutral landing on both parts

 

[DRDN]

The advantages start at the ship crashing and end well after the pendulm so that leaves the walk way and boat where its maybe evenish

 

[Chuee]

Which is why mk stays on the ledge (not planking) of the right side during the ship part.
Then he gets his playground :/

 

[_Kadaj_]

The advantages truly start at the ending phase of the pendulum, which allows for sharking almost the entire duration of the segment. Even then you have platforms (i.e higher ground) to take to, similar to delfino

 

[_Kadaj_]

With these things being said though, with Brinstar gone you wouldn't even have to play on RC if you didn't want to.

 

[DRDN]

With these things being said though, with Brinstar gone you wouldn't even have to play on RC if you didn't want to.

thats the major point most people are trying to make

If brinstar was banned then RC is equal to FD and you can just ban the one you dont want
If there were 2 Bans you are in the same boat but have both stages in the list

I think once Norfair was banned Brinstar should have gone with it the only thing missing is the fullscreen lava but the safty pod isnt the only way to get around that so I don't see why 1 went and the other didnt

 

[_Kadaj_]

Yeah me either.

The thing with two bans though is that we don't have that many stages (which is a good thing imo)

But leaving it in for the sake of having 2 bans would just another use for banning a stage that shouldn't be in the stagelist anyway (brinstar)

 

[Dabuz]

Two bans also creates the problem that non MK characters will lose their two main CPs in the set about 85% of the time, reducing the effectiveness of the CP system (which is good IMO) also ,i did the math before, in a GFs set which goes to game 5, if there are two bans, assuming no stage repeats, there will be 3 stages left to pick by game 5, thats like...nothing

 

[DRDN]

That does sound like a problem but for the first part does anyone know the % of matches involving MK?

 

[Dabuz]

IIRC, something along the lines of 53% of money is made by MK, thats probably close to the amount of matches involving MK

 

[_Kadaj_]

What Dabuz said lol

I honestly think with the removal of Brinstar a lot of things will open up

 

[ADHD]

The removal of the character itself will actually open alot of things up <_<

 

[DRDN]

The removal of the character itself will actually open alot of things up <_<

Definitly

 

[Dabuz]

If you want to remove the character, start running MK banned tournies, and let the big time TOs know the community wants the character removed and will still go to tournies if hes removed, heck, people will show up like crazy at mk banned tournies

 

[Tin Man]

Dabuz, did you namesearch your way in here lol?

After seeing where this discussion is going, I can understand what the BBR-RC is saying about Banning MK before banning RC or Brinstar. 2 stage bans causes more problems for every character not named Meta Knight than it causes for every character names Meta Knight.

That and the many other problems MK seems to cause such as the lgl.

 

[Tagxy]

Are you trying to say 2 stage bans causes problems for olimar? Because it doesnt seem to present that big a problem for all or even most characters.

 

[Dabuz]

NOT A BIG PROBLEM?! take any character, now, think of their best stage. Ok, cool, you tohught of it, it got banned, what do you do? go to their secodn bet stage. OH ****, HOLD YO MOMMA'S PHONE, THIS ***** JUST BANNED THAT STAGE AS WELL! Damn, now you gota go to your third best stage, heck, that ain't even a great stage for your character now, its a pretty even stage, oh well, looks like no worthwhile CP

 

[Tagxy]

From a list of 13 stages you cant find a 3rd stage that presents you an advantage? That sounds more like more of an issue for shallow characters. However even a character like Ice Climbers should be able to pick a decent stage to their advantage.

 

[Dabuz]

first of all, after game 1+2 bans, thats 10 stages


there is a difference between advantage and notable advantage. ESPECIALLY when your playing a character that has multiple stages in that list that also give a notable advantage to them. Heck, as olimar, by banning brinstar and RC, i pretty much made it so your character has no "good" CPs on me, the only other one with a slight advantage to use is frigate. And thats only if the olimar isn't me and dislikes frigate. Or as ICs or diddy, by banning FD and SV on you, you no longer have great stages to CP. Ban BF and lylat vs. marth, what amazing stages does he have left?

 

[Tagxy]

Whats wrong with removing a characters amazing stages when were removing MK's amazing stages? And whats the point in even having a ban if one stage can substitute directly for another?

Ice Climbers still have Yoshis and Battlefield. Marth does well on a ton of stages. vs olimar, it helps me overall to be able to ban two stages against olimar than the reverse imo.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Which is why Brinstar should just be removed.

Aside from it there isn't a stage that even closely garners the advantage it gives. MU's aren't as horrid (Set count included) because you had to waste a ban just to get rid of a stage that shouldn't be legal

 

[WindMajor]

Brinstar should be legal though. There's nothing wrong with it other than MK's presence. Matches without MK on Brinstar are just fine.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Did you even read my initial post on the matter? (The bottom half)


That alone is the reason it should be gone, granted it is using MK as an example. The fact that it forces you into such situations is pretty stupid considering none of the other stages provide it

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Mother ****er.

I like how you guys are wasting your opportunity to talk to us on a matter that you will never see turn the way you want it. Brinstar will NEVER be banned. Rainbow Cruise will NEVER be banned.

Seriously guys, shut the **** up about it. It is irritating to read you idiots go on and on about the same thing that I've already addressed.

Craig, we aren't banning Brinstar. It doesn't force you to always get hit. Hell, you are Marth, you could just counter the acid. It doesn't force you to get hit, no stage ever does that except for Pictochat, which is why it is banned. Seriously, stop *****ing, QQ less on this thread, and move on with ****ing life. Holy ****, I'm a Pikachu main and I don't even ***** about Brinstar, and that **** it absolutely terrible for me. God damn...

I'm going to ignore posts that even contain banning either stage. And, as I have said before, 2 stage bans will probably not happen until the stage list is expanded, which might not happen in the first place.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

How about banning MK?

Sometimes it just kills me that it hasn't been done globally yet.

If any top players who want MK banned and want to make a difference, use this thus far ill-deserved influence (honestly no hate, but that's just how I see it right now) to get him banned, do something positive.

 

[WindMajor]

@Kadaj Yes I did, but I just chose to respond to your most recent post. The stage forces both characters into the air for a couple of seconds using a telegraphed rise in lava. Don't see anything wrong with that, especially considering that stages like Halberd force you to other portions of the map at the expense of getting hit by the hazard. The fact that MK thrives on this rise in opportunity is just a counterpick quality. Still nothing wrong with that, at least in my opinion.

@ESAM Ouch.... We know you guys aren't gonna do anything about it, but the conversation is still up, and we still feel like discussing it. You don't have to read the posts if you don't want to, but there's no reason to silence us just because you don't want to hear about it or because you think that it's pointless. That third paragraph sounded like if an enraged BPC wrote it.

 

[DeLux]

I hope ESAM is speaking from his own personal predictions and conjecture and not for the committee as a whole.

I don't know how the rule making process works for them, but he's only one member. If we could strongly convince everyone else on the committee to override his vote, and it still remains unbanned, then the committee ceases being functional and loses validity

 

[Steam]

guys...

hey guys...

the problem isn't brinstar. It's MK.

they're just stages that actually help MK. and MK is so good already...

 

[T-block]

ESAM, you have the wrong idea of what this thread is. It's a discussion thread, not a try-to-convince-the-BRC thread. If the people want to discuss a topic, and can do so civilly, you have no right to tell them not to do so.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Blah blah blah.

What is the point of discussing together when you could do that in other threads though? Make a Brinstar thread in this forum and ***** about it, not here when all of the BRC members read this one in particular. Of course I can't say "You aren't allowed to do X here" but it is just a waste of energy and thought since it isn't going to happen. There is nothing wrong with the stage that will ban it AS A STAGE. A characters' dominance doesn't cause a stage to be banned, unless it is literally a 100% win rate of equally skilled players, which it isn't. No stage is banned due to character dominance, only due to bad stage mechanics. Brinstar has nothing wrong with it as a stage, therefore it will never be banned. EVER! I can tell you that the Committee won't ban it unless some broken technique comes out as somebody that makes them win every time easy.

 

[King Funk]

2 bans will hurt the other characters more than it will hurt Meta Knight.

 

[John12346]

Banning Brinstar or RC just because of MK is a blatant surgical nerf and there's nothing wrong with the stages outside of one winged ****** gaying it up.

2 stage bans leaves MK with Delfino, Frigate, and, to a lesser extent YI, and it will leave a lot of characters without a solid CP to go to, although it is a far better solution than banning Brinstar or RC.

Banning MK may result in a lot of *****ing, but it's probably the best solution out of the 3.

 

[Steam]

yeah even banning two stages still gives MK pretty strong CPs... especially compared to what everyone else would be left with.

as lucario against MK I'd have... I actually don't know. maybe PS1 or something. : (

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MK is "the" problem? He isn't a problem at all.