The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Kuro~]

when ever gallax hosts a tourney here in Fl. He'd have both players strike 2 stages and then go to random with the remaining 3. or if he was using 5 starter list he would have both strike 1 and go to random with the remaining 3. I kinda liked that way even if it is a bit weird.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Jebus, just stop. You stopped making sense a while ago, and are now all over the place.

Strike from full list until three stages remaining. Play on those three stages. Should be considereddddd

at first I was like wtf

then I realized what you meant LMAO

I actually like this idea will think about its pros/cons


editing since i'm back

well the first con I could think of is there isn't really much of a "counterpicking" portion involved, that being said it should theoretically allow for people to keep the stage list the way it is.

Hypothetical set

Falco vs mk
Falco strikes
Brinstar
RC
Lylat
frigate
delphino
yoshis? (i dunno not much left to strike LOL)

MK strikes
FD
BF
halberd
between PS1 CS and SV I'm not paticularly sure which metaknight would want what to be banned, some may not want to play on PS1 at all, others may want to play on CS ect other may just rather play smashville ect


Iirc that leavs us with

PS2
SV
CS
PS1
and probably some other stage I'm forgetting.


It'd completely change the way we play this game though LMAO I would be down for it. theoretically if your character can't fight on the stages agreed upon by the set rules then your character doesn't deserve to win since your playing on whats originally 3 even'd stages

.

 

[Player-1]

It makes my day when people can put their differences aside. No matter if you're a conservative, a liberal, or just some other guy we can all come together and agree that Jebus is dumb.

 

[Chuee]

That ideas actually pretty good

 

[MK26]

until you realize there are trolls that can and will ban the entire unity list and find some semi-ridiculous trio to play on every set...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

until you realize there are trolls that can and will ban the entire unity list and find some semi-ridiculous trio to play on every set...

What's wrong with that?All the stages on the list are legal for a reason

 

[T-block]

Hypothetical set

Falco vs mk
Falco strikes
Brinstar
RC
Lylat
frigate
delphino
yoshis? (i dunno not much left to strike LOL)

MK strikes
FD
BF
halberd
between PS1 CS and SV I'm not paticularly sure which metaknight would want what to be banned, some may not want to play on PS1 at all, others may want to play on CS ect other may just rather play smashville ect


Iirc that leavs us with

PS2
SV
CS
PS1
and probably some other stage I'm forgetting.


It'd completely change the way we play this game though LMAO I would be down for it.

Diddy vs. GaW, Unity legal stages.

Diddy strikes RC, Brinstar, Frigate, Halberd, PS2
GaW strikes FD, PS1, SV, YI:B, CS

That leaves Lylat, BF, Delfino for the set. They strike down to one (who gets to pick last is balanced out by the selection order for the strikes) and play that as the starter. Let's say they go Lylat. Diddy wins, GaW picks between BF and Delfino. He picks Delfino and wins. Last game is on BF. Yay.

It makes my day when people can put their differences aside. No matter if you're a conservative, a liberal, or just some other guy we can all come together and agree that Jebus is dumb.

i lol'd

That ideas actually pretty good

Not my idea by any means. This is Dastrn's system.

until you realize there are trolls that can and will ban the entire unity list and find some semi-ridiculous trio to play on every set...

What do you mean? This selection method is fair assuming both players are picking optimally. If someone decides to troll, they can only pick sub-optimally, giving you an advantage.

This is done from the legal stages, not all stages.

Note that it DOES mean there's probably room for more stages to be legal in the first place =)

 

[Sinister Slush]

So much starters xd
in my opinion the starters should be SV, FD and BF.

** OFF topic
And... Advantage to Yoshi in Castle Siege... Meta Knight can be KO'd by Release Grab. (same at dittos)

Not Enough Starters...
No.
MK along with 14 others... also it's not that hard for MK just to Shuttle Loop on a Platform to avoid the walkoffs.

** now ON topic...
why pictochat get banned?

Cause the transformations are random along with the Line transformation taking out the left ledge which would be bad if a character with a tether recovery was offstage and underneath the ledge.

 

[Tin Man]

Yeah, as I said before (Thank you for remembering people) we will never ban Brinstar OR Rainbow Cruise. I am of the opinion that we will ban MK before we ban those stages because there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THOSE STAGES! There are a few glitches on RC and that's it for their bad layout. So please, stop complaining. Just because Strife took Brinstar out of his ruleset doesn't mean it was actually a good idea, he was just trying to appeal to the OOC crowd, which as of now isn't our objective. We want to make a solid ruleset before we start reaching out and trying to incorporate other countries (I think).

That was a very good explanation .

I'll bring up the 10 minute timer

I'm not going to bring up the discussion of LGLs again.

9 minute timer is cooler because you can say 3 minutes per stock :D

This. I have reason to believe the 8 minute timer was grandfathered in from the Melee ruleset, and if its true that it was meant for 2 minutes per stock, then the timer would make more sense to be 9 minutes. 1 Piece of evidence supporting this would be how the BBR_RC decided for a 1 stock 3 minute match on the basis that a game resulted in a tie. It would therefore be consistent to follow the 3 minutes per stock rule.

I'm still curious as to why the choice of 10 minutes anyways. Is there an explanation that isn't subjective?

I have an Idea! We could just ban meta kni- *shot*

I honestly don't think that there are enough stages in our list right now to have 2 stage bans, even though technically there are.

I'm wondering. Would 2 stage bans be the result of multiple stages in the stage list, or would it be a result of nerfing i guess MK because he may receive far to many good stages?

Lol at Diddy doing good against MK on japes...

ikr

this can all be easily solved guys.

A- Give us two stage bans
B- Ban Met- *shot*

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

tbh, i like the sound of 2 stage bans and the higher time limit. but imo with more time should come more ledge grabs if you do wind up doing that

 

[C.J.]

tbh, i like the sound of 2 stage bans and the higher time limit. but imo with more time should come more ledge grabs if you do wind up doing that

That would largely defeat the purpose, lol

 

[Bizkit047]

For those of you who are reqeusting a Change Log of the ruleset, here you go:

Unity Ruleset Change Log


v1.0 - Ruleset released.


v1.1 - Pictochat is now banned.

Pause rule edited to include a harsher punishment for a player who pauses during a bad situation (such as recoveries).​

Infinite/Stalling rules slightly edited for clarity.​

A player disruption conduct rule added.​

Two clauses added to protect TOs and venue owners.​

v1.2 - New player infraction system implemented. Yellow & Red Cards introduced.


v1.3 - 5 stage starter list changed to 7 stage starter list, with PS1 and Castle Siege being the two new stages.


I wrote it up, it's not official, but shows all the updates per version. AZ will probably update the ruleset thread with it when he reads it.

 

[Browny]

Do you need like, 10 minutes to strike each round?

Nope.

1) With more stages to strike, it will make sets last slightly longer and it introduces stages which can seriously complicate stage choice. This wont add much.

2) Freakin castle siege and PS1 matches ALWAYS go for long. PS1 is just ridiculous every single goddam time the rock/earth formation comes up its just stalling. 30 seconds added for each of those transformations, 1+ minutes on any given match is likely considering all transformations and the amount of stalling they create. CS isnt so bad but second stage creates stalling as well. Especially vs the likes of snake. Too many times its just someone camping below with the other character running around, unable to approach due to platforms/extending hitbox statues.

 

[WindMajor]

I take an exaggerated amount of time for deciding what stage I want to strike, ban, and counterpick, and I have yet to hear a single complaint about how long I take, even when it's obvious that I'm doing it on purpose.

Just saying.

Edit: Thanks Bizkit!

 

[Bizkit047]

Nope.

1) With more stages to strike, it will make sets last slightly longer and it introduces stages which can seriously complicate stage choice. This wont add much.

2) Freakin castle siege and PS1 matches ALWAYS go for long. PS1 is just ridiculous every single goddam time the rock/earth formation comes up its just stalling. 30 seconds added for each of those transformations, 1+ minutes on any given match is likely considering all transformations and the amount of stalling they create. CS isnt so bad but second stage creates stalling as well. Especially vs the likes of snake. Too many times its just someone camping below with the other character running around, unable to approach due to platforms/extending hitbox statues.

1. Stage striking with two extra stages adding to the time a set takes is almost non-existent. A vast majority of sets will either be "SV?" like always, or people will strike adding maybe an extra 30 seconds. Having entered tourneys with 5/7/9 lists, the time difference between them is quite negligible.

2. True, PS1 does promote heavy camping during the transformations, and CS can promote camping during the second transformation in some matchups, but consider how many sets will go to PS1 game 1, or even Castle Siege. So it is extreme to say something that all sets will add 10+ minutes to it.

It is essentially the same thing as saying changing the timer from 8 minutes to 10 minutes will make all matches take two minutes longer. Obviously that won't happen, as nearly all matches won't go to time or rarely would pass 8 minutes anyway.

 

[DRDN]

Wasn't the original unity set lglless? When did that come back or has it been there forever and I didn't see it?

 

[MK26]

oh, my bad, i thought somebody brought up full stage list striking

so im reading this thread thinking 'why are people agreeing to that?'

shoulda clicked that i was missing something :/

 

[Bizkit047]

Wasn't the original unity set lglless? When did that come back or has it been there forever and I didn't see it?

You're probably thinking of the BBR Recommended Ruleset. Back before Unity was released, there was the issue of the ruleset almost having a LGL for MK only, but that was done away with before it was released.

 

[Player-1]

I take an exaggerated amount of time for deciding what stage I want to strike, ban, and counterpick, and I have yet to hear a single complaint about how long I take, even when it's obvious that I'm doing it on purpose.

Just saying.

Edit: Thanks Bizkit!

GA is known for it's character/stage selection screen planking. This guy planked the stage selection screen for 10 minutes once, then the same guy planked the character selection screen so much that the opponent just forfeited. Don't **** with us, plank your selection screens and st00f.


edit: Bizkit, I think you should add 2-3-1 stage striking order as well to the update log.

 

[Bizkit047]

I've had someone take a stupid amount of time on the stage selection screen before. I'd say just call a TO to tell them they have like 1 minute to choose if they're stalling. Should be 5 minute max IMO.

 

[Raziek]

Posting here to express my approval for a gradual step in the right direction.

Also, regarding my stance on MK. I'm gonna go ahead here and disagree with BPC on the concept that banning MK is a surgical change. Banning MK IS a surgical change to the game at large.

I just happen to believe it's a surgical change that has far more pros than cons, which is where I put aside ideals in favor of what I actually desire for this game. There is no doubt in my mind that Brawl is a better, more balanced, more diverse game without MK.

Almost every problem or complaint people have about this game centralizes on MK.

 

[DRDN]

I Believe if we keep MK at large we will end up worse then MvC 2

meaning 10 years after the game being out there will be 3 viable chars at most MK and MUs that go even with him almost...

Banning him would make it so a vast more chars would be played and the game may be more enjoyable to watch.

Since it seems like the rulesets changing every month or two why not trying the ban MK for a little and see what the results are?

 

[MK26]

inb4peoplewontbeplayingbrawlintenyears

 

[Browny]

1. Stage striking with two extra stages adding to the time a set takes is almost non-existent. A vast majority of sets will either be "SV?" like always, or people will strike adding maybe an extra 30 seconds. Having entered tourneys with 5/7/9 lists, the time difference between them is quite negligible.

2. True, PS1 does promote heavy camping during the transformations, and CS can promote camping during the second transformation in some matchups, but consider how many sets will go to PS1 game 1, or even Castle Siege. So it is extreme to say something that all sets will add 10+ minutes to it.

It is essentially the same thing as saying changing the timer from 8 minutes to 10 minutes will make all matches take two minutes longer. Obviously that won't happen, as nearly all matches won't go to time or rarely would pass 8 minutes anyway.

I said 2-5 minutes... and I stick by that :x

Or will adding PS1/CS to the starter list just generate another example of PS2 syndrome. Making the stage legal as oppose to banned doesnt increase the likelihood of anyone playing it in a serious match ever

Still disappointed RC/Brin are both in though. I just dont get it, MK has surgical rules all over him with IDC and ledgegrab limits, but his stupid stages remain. I mean, IDC was banned before anyone ever proves it was broken or centralising (yes that is a valid point look at DK's planking and what that created). Only reason planking was still legal was because no one wanted to abuse it to the fullest, that doesnt make it any less inherently broken. If similarly, people actually made an effort to always go brin/RC and actually play properly with MK on every CP I think itd follow the same path. The combination of both being available with single stage bans is whats broken, not simply MK on those stages...

 

[MK26]

your otherise reasonable argument is pretty much useless as soon as you question the banning of idc...

 

[Raziek]

The combination of both being available with single stage bans is whats broken, not simply MK on those stages...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Browny, it's not a valid argument when IDC is very clearly and obviously broken, unlike DK's planking which very obviously... isn't.

 

[Browny]

Raz the point is, Metaknight can never 'centralise' the metagame if he is never actually given a chance to. He could 100:0 everyone there, but if only one was legal and it was always banned (like what always happens) he can never 'break' anything. chars like Diddy are borderline broken on FD. That doesnt mean it will ever centralise the metagame of character/stage choice because it can always be avoided. What good is having a broken stage combo if it never actually happens. Sonic is broken on temple but thats just as pointless. The only way it remains 'broken' is if someone pulls out a surprise diddy on opponents FD CP, in that case, all power to the person who seconds diddy, thats their advantage for maximising their gain from the CP system.

MK is made all the more ridiculous since so many people second MK or will use him on those stages. Both being legal practically removes a stage ban from the other player. it is ALWAYS wasted on one of those two regardless of whether the other mk would pick it or not. and if they did, it never matters since theyve always got the other.

Sigh... 2 bans would make everything so much better.

and im not questioning banning IDC lol, I just wonder what the precedent is for allowing both stages as such heavy MK stages still existing. Vs the heavily centralising forced counterpicks, wasted bans and pocket MK's to deal with those god awful stages, why do they exist? I mean CLEARLY MK has a lot to do with these stages and hes already forced surgical bans/limitation, I dont see why its so hard to accept that MK truly does centralise the metagame when it comes to stage choice and practically forcing people to CP him with MK if they dont want horrendously disadvantaged match to make up for them beating an MK in game 1...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So much starters xd
in my opinion the starters should be SV, FD and BF.
The most neutrals of the game...

Except when they aren't. In fact, it's been explored pretty extensively, and even if SV and BF are relatively neutral, FD is one of the harshest counterpicks in the game. It is by no means neutral, not by any stretch of the imagination.

** OFF topic
Anyway.... WHY this thread is now a pro ban meta knight?
Tier list thread is now a ban/not ban thread and now this...
You talk about Metaknight advantage...
What about Snake advantage on FD or Halberd? (don't say s*** about is advantage of mk... Utilt talks in that stage)

Not nearly as extreme. It's present, but it's really not as strong.

And... Advantage to Yoshi in Castle Siege... Meta Knight can be KO'd by Release Grab. (same at dittos)

To this I'll just say "LOLOLO"

** now ON topic...
why pictochat get banned?

Too random.

And.. only be simetry.... no 7th stage to counterpicks?
i edited my Custom SSS code set... and now looks ugly u.u 7 stages and 6... pff xD

We're looking into it... GO GO JUNGLE JAPES!!!

 

[King Funk]

Look I understand the BBRC doesn't want to just ban a stage based on some forum debate, but would it be willing to allow tournaments to test what happens when brinstar and RC aren't legal at the same time?

We tested it in Europe. RC was banned but not Brinstar. The first really big tournament using it was Bushido Brawl Impact.

The result was amazing. Nobody complained about it.

inb4lolEuropewhocares

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I made a blog about striking from the entire legal stagelist on AiB about a year ago. The critiques were so harsh that I deleted the blog two days later. Good to see this idea is getting a revival ^^

 

[Yikarur]

I made a blog about striking from the entire legal stagelist on AiB about a year ago. The critiques were so harsh that I deleted the blog two days later. Good to see this idea is getting a revival ^^

that idea was mentioned million times already

 

[T-block]

I said 2-5 minutes... and I stick by that :x

Or will adding PS1/CS to the starter list just generate another example of PS2 syndrome. Making the stage legal as oppose to banned doesnt increase the likelihood of anyone playing it in a serious match ever

Have you ever gone to a tournament with this kind of stage list? PS1/CS will be chosen as starters quite a bit. I guarantee it. We'll certainly see them more than we'll see FD.

PS2 is region dependent, but serious matches DO takes place on it in tournament -_-

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not a year ago, Yika =(

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Delfino doesn't offer advantages that Brinstar and Cruise do.

Brinstar has permanent sharking with a very closed layout, Delfino being more open is better against MK since you can more space. Acid doesn't matter too much since MK can maneuver himself enough to get up when the acid rises.

Rainbow Cruise is more open. The main issues are the rising and pendulum which are hard to fight MK here. You have to go more aerial vs MK at these points which is extremely difficult.

It may not be instant win, but he gains substantial advantages on these stages, Delfino doesn't compare to them.

I don't even think FD compares for those "broken" on it.

I don't see how the match vs vinnie is irrelevant. You agree that Mk goes even with G&W here, but isn't that what we're discussing? MK beating all chars here? Well I guess not if G&W is going even here. You can't really use the "oh he doesn't know the MU, doesn't count" when you're talking about top players.

I used to think top players have no excuse to not know a MU.

But really I've seen it happen too many times when they played a top level player of not so often played characters and lost because they did a ton of stupid things showing they didn't know what they were doing.

 

[King Funk]

I like when people mention IC's on FD as being equally or more broken than MK on Rainbow Cruise. Especially when the stage can just be banned in a set. At worst you'll end up playing against them on Smashville. Unlike vs Meta Knight where he has a guaranteed pick between Brinstar and RC, but also Frigate Orpheon and Delfino Plaza if he prefers those stages. Oh and you also have DSR to help out our cute little masked warrior.

Now obviously, you might say, MK is a much better character than IC's.

 

[T-block]

People bring up ICs on FD more in response to the "can't CP Brinstar/RC because of pocket MK" argument.

And you said it yourself - we need to take into account that MK is a much better character, which is why I was asking earlier whether it's the boost he gains from these stages, or simply the fact that he is good on these stages, that people take issue with.

 

[Player-1]

I used to think top players have no excuse to not know a MU.

But really I've seen it happen too many times when they played a top level player of not so often played characters and lost because they did a ton of stupid things showing they didn't know what they were doing.

his name is DSF

 

[King Funk]

People bring up ICs on FD more in response to the "can't CP Brinstar/RC because of pocket MK" argument.

And you said it yourself - we need to take into account that MK is a much better character, which is why I was asking earlier whether it's the boost he gains from these stages, or simply the fact that he is good on these stages, that people take issue with.

Because oh so many people have a pocket IC's that is technically on point and plays most matchups correctly.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Based on current discussion in the BRC, it seems like a longer time limit, 9 or 10 minutes, won't happen because based on MLG data, matches timed out <1% of the time...so there is no reason to alter a rule for the extreme minority in matches.

You guys argue with yourselves a lot >_>

We aren't going to incorporate Full list stage striking any time in the near future. It is too radical of a change to FORCE people to implement considering it isn't a very popular option NOW for TOs...so why would we force them to do it considering nobody does? Does that mean it isn't the best thing? No, but as of now we aren't considering it at all.