The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[popsofctown]

Semantics.



It is, however, an argument that I have yet to see a counter for, I've brought up the hundreds of thousands of double standards a LGL creates so many times now.

I know the double standard angle makes a lot of sense for you, but isn't the best way to get your point across.

The result is generally ignoring you.

Then again maybe people just want to ignore you.

 

[Cassio]

It is, however, an argument that I have yet to see a counter for, I've brought up the hundreds of thousands of double standards a LGL creates so many times now.

I'd say its almost entirely attributed to the fact that if MK is banned, it wont be for the reason youre giving, and as a practical matter it serves best for anti-ban to argue against the issue that will get him banned.

Right now the big argument against MK is to appeal to the communities well being (MK is used too much, MK hurts attendance/makes people quit, the game will be more fun without MK, everyone wants him banned, etc.).

 

[Doc King]

I really think it would be in your best interests to quiet down and just listen for a while, Doc King.

Why?

wth Doc King...u just agreed with me. Yer confusing me but if u understand then stop crying over mk. Because us players who have advanced our character and play a certain(adapting and reading) way don't cry over mk.

I do agree that adapting your character is a very good thing to do. I disagree on having mk banned because we have adapted and it ended up not working out well. Also, MK has been adapting to his metagame a lot more than the other characters have been. Over time, this will make other characters metagames unviable and inadapted/inadaptable. MK is holding everyone in Brawl down, that's another reason why MK should be banned.

 

[popsofctown]

I'd say its almost entirely attributed to the fact that if MK is banned, it wont be for the reason youre giving, and as a practical matter it serves best for anti-ban to argue against the issue that will get him banned.

Right now the big argument against MK is to appeal to the communities well being (MK is used too much, MK hurts attendance/makes people quit, the game will be more fun without MK, everyone wants him banned, etc.).

I'm keeping fingers crossed that the BBRC isn't distributing attention amongst arguments based on how frequently they are repeated and how many people are behind it.

 

[Cassio]

I wouldnt necessarily say the argument itself is bad if it can be proven. Like Strong Bad says if the community decides we want to play casually for the sake of the community itself, or just because its more "fun" its not like anyone can stop us.

However the first issue is we have to acknowledge that we're turning it into a casual fighter, as opposed to "adding depth" as some seem to mistakenly believe.

The second issue is it's yet to be proven. The poll, as mentioned isnt reliable. MK being over centralizing is in no way measurable, and as we've seen other professional communities have put up with worse. So essentially the argument boils down to the game isnt fun enough with MK. Or rather:

If we ban MK, then MAYBE the game will be more fun, and maybe maybe people will stop quitting, and maybe maybe maybe people will come back and play again.

Also, MK being broken as an old '09 argument thats failed once and would fail again.

 

[Flayl]

@Grim Thats a different more specific argument, in regards to ruleset alterations for specific characters. I was referring more to the type of arguments Doc and sort of flayl brought up.

Uh, claiming MK doesn't have disadvantaged/even matchups isn't saying he's unbeatable. You're avoiding the argument.

 

[R e d X]

I wouldnt necessarily say the argument itself is bad if it can be proven. Like Strong Bad says if the community decides we want to play casually for the sake of the community itself, or just because its more "fun" its not like anyone can stop us.

However the first issue is we have to acknowledge that we're turning it into a casual fighter, as opposed to "adding depth" as some seem to mistakenly believe.

The second issue is it's yet to be proven. The poll, as mentioned isnt reliable. MK being over centralizing is in no way measurable, and as we've seen other professional communities have put up with worse. So essentially the argument boils down to the game isnt fun enough with MK. Or rather:

If we ban MK, then MAYBE the game will be more fun, and maybe maybe people will stop quitting, and maybe maybe maybe people will come back and play again.

Also, MK being broken as an old '09 argument thats failed once and would fail again.

*Sigh* There's too much truth in this to ignore. I think banning MK will help the casual scene immensly, were as not banning him is good for the pro scene. Depends on where the community wants to go.

 

[DMG]

You guys got it all wrong

MK ties with Ivan Ooze with IDC. He goes invisible, stays invisible til time runs out. No damage is ever done. Good day sirs

 

[fkacyan]

You guys got it all wrong

MK ties with Ivan Ooze with IDC. He goes invisible, stays invisible til time runs out. No damage is ever done. Good day sirs

If it was Ivan ooze, every time MK went in the same x coordinate as you, you would take damage.

 

[Cassio]

Uh, claiming MK doesn't have disadvantaged/even matchups isn't saying he's unbeatable. You're avoiding the argument.

Actually Im confused to what your argument is. Why precisely does having no disadvantaged/even MUs matter? Is it because it makes the game less fun? Or because it makes MK too powerful?

If its the former then I amend my statement to the previous post. If its the latter than I stand by my previous statement. Either way I wasnt attempting to argue MKs MUs now.

 

[DMG]

If it was Ivan ooze, every time MK went in the same x coordinate as you, you would take damage.

Not if that Axis was intangible.


DANG SON YOU JUST GOT TAKEN TO SECOND GRADE GEOMETRY! OBTUSE HYPOTENUSE MOTHER ****ER

 

[Steam]

yeah MK is still as dominant as he is WHILE taking away IDC from him, making him unable to really abuse his strongest aspect (planking/ledge game) and forcing him onto his worst stages 2/3 games in a set while also banning CP stages like norfair in large part due to him... I don't think it's any coincidence that his "worst" matchups are all great on neutrals... they actually stand a chance because they get that stage advantage 2/3 games in a set.

 

[Kuro~]

Was wonderin about that. Falco I could see but I didn't think Wario was even. But a matchup thread a saw a couple months ago listed it as 50:50 and there were a few supporting posts if I recall. But this wasn't SWF, just some other random chart. I'll place my trust in you guys cause you prolly know better than me lol.

Falco's not really even either. Def. way closer than wario. He's def. top 3 closest in best mu imo.

 

[Jane]

if the community decides we want to play casually for the sake of the community itself, or just because its more "fun" its not like anyone can stop us.

we wouldn't be playing casually at all. it would still be a completely competitive game driven by competitive people.

However the first issue is we have to acknowledge that we're turning it into a casual fighter,

hahah, the word "casual" doesn't really mean much. it is not "casual" if we compete in tournament setting for money and rankings.

as opposed to "adding depth" as some seem to mistakenly believe.

it will add depth. why do you think it won't?

The second issue is it's yet to be proven. The poll, as mentioned isnt reliable.

its not 100% accurate, but it is certainly worth something.

MK being over centralizing is in no way measurable,

yes it is.

If we ban MK, then MAYBE the game will be more fun, and maybe maybe people will stop quitting, and maybe maybe maybe people will come back and play again.

it will be more fun for at least 686 people. whether it be because "they don't have to work as hard" or because of ideological reasons, it will be more fun for AT LEAST that many people. guaranteed.

 

[popsofctown]

I voted for the ban for ideological reasons, but expect to have less fun overall postban (at least at first).

Can I have a cookie?

 

[Jane]

why do you feel that you'll have less fun?

 

[popsofctown]

I don't know how to play anyone besides Meta Knight. And I don't really enjoy any of the top tiers as much as I enjoyed Meta Knight, except D3, and I keep whiffing the three buffered inputs he needs to CG Marth and it's frustrating. (MK's already banned in my region)

In the long term though, not having to run a nerf treadmill will be more gratifying.

 

[Jane]

you main mk in a region where he's banned? haha who do you go in tourney?

that's interesting though. i stand corrected, not 686 guaranteed to have more fun. but i can't fathom many more that both voted yes and feel the way you do.

 

[popsofctown]

He was recently announced as banned in an upcoming series of five tournaments. They haven't started yet, I'm still trying to learn new characters.

I know I'm in a minority, but I'm still irritated by "all you pro ban people want to ban MK instead of learning how to beat him, easy way out, blah blah". I'm lonely but I still exist.

 

[Judo777]

So guys just want to let you know of something really silly. See me and Logic's last match (the rematch) was the only compromise Logic was going to allow (not that he was even obligated to do so in the first place because he wasn't). Otherwise I took the loss. Neither me or Logic really wanted to play the last rematch (I especially didn't because I had lost all momentum and was getting tired). However because of the Unity Ruleset I was actually forced to play that rematch. Failure to do so would have been an intentional forfeit, resulting in a yellow card, however because I am still under restriction from the last one I got IN THE SAME CATEGORY FOR A DIFFERENT OFFENSE I would have recieved a red card and been banned for Unity Tournaments for several weeks.

Telling you guys that rule needs to be changed. Intentional forfeit rule needs to be amended really badly.

 

[Attila_]

I know I'm in a minority, but I'm still irritated by "all you pro ban people want to ban MK instead of learning how to beat him, easy way out, blah blah". I'm lonely but I still exist.

I haven't lost to an mk since feb. And I'm pro ban because mk is broken.

I win against them cause I'm that much better. But when players of similar or equal skill play against them, they lose. Either that, or they play the ditto.

Counter picking doesn't matter, cause it doesn't work. Unless you are on a different level, you need to cp the ditto.

And that's ********.

Mk is ********. He doesn't make sense. Why a character that can make so many mistakes and live, but can kill off a single error? Why transcendent priority? Why planking? Why no counter picks?

Hell, the only thing he doesn't have is a projectile. But even without one, he's still got the strongest camping game in ssbb.

And that makes no sense.

 

[Cassio]

Jane Im not going to sit and rehash arguments that have already been made and ignored multiple times. If youre going to give me vague and uninformative responses without even attempting to be inquisitive Im not going to bother. Luckily for you the arguments are easy to access, go reread strong bads post then reread mine with some context.

Hopefully youll find out why just because people compete doesnt mean something is competitive.

 

[AllyKnight]

I'm not Pro-Ban, only when I'm pissed. I'm honestly Neutral . If he gets banned, then okay, if not, I'll keep using him

 

[DEHF]

I'm not Pro-Ban, only when I'm pissed. I'm honestly Neutral . If he gets banned, then okay, if not, I'll keep using him

This made me laugh a little.

 

[Eddie G]

Ally get that banner right son...you mean top 1 at Apex 2012!

 

[DEHF]

Ally get that banner right son...you mean top 1 at Apex 2012!

Nietono is taking first.

 

[DMG]

Watch Nietono have the most ridiculously good MK that comes out of nowhere and beats everyone in the ditto, and then he uses other character if you don't play MK vs him.

That would be hilarious.

 

[Jane]

If youre going to give me vague and uninformative responses without even attempting to be inquisitive Im not going to bother.

lol, sorry i'm not inquisitive enough for you. i keep it simple because longs posts garner less attention from others.

 

[Ripple]

So guys just want to let you know of something really silly. See me and Logic's last match (the rematch) was the only compromise Logic was going to allow (not that he was even obligated to do so in the first place because he wasn't). Otherwise I took the loss. Neither me or Logic really wanted to play the last rematch (I especially didn't because I had lost all momentum and was getting tired). However because of the Unity Ruleset I was actually forced to play that rematch. Failure to do so would have been an intentional forfeit, resulting in a yellow card, however because I am still under restriction from the last one I got IN THE SAME CATEGORY FOR A DIFFERENT OFFENSE I would have recieved a red card and been banned for Unity Tournaments for several weeks.

Telling you guys that rule needs to be changed. Intentional forfeit rule needs to be amended really badly.

I seriously doubt DAY would have considered that an intentional forfeit and card you for not playing it

 

[AllyKnight]

Ally get that banner right son...you mean top 1 at Apex 2012!

Soon soon once I feel more confident.

Nietono is taking first.

in pools yeah. he's getting 17th in bracket, losing to chibo and Razer D:

 

[Ripple]

I plan on taking out 9B at Apex. DK vs. ICs

 

[DEHF]

in pools yeah. he's getting 17th in bracket, losing to chibo and Razer D:

maybe in doubles!!!!

FEAR NI ALLY, FEAR THE NI!!!!

 

[Ussi]

I plan on taking out 9B at Apex. DK vs. ICs

watch him go DDD

 

[CT Chia]

Soon soon once I feel more confident.



in pools yeah. he's getting 17th in bracket, losing to chibo and Razer D:

lol i'm ok with this

--

btw anyone awesome wanna team? i need a teammate n stuff.

i'm like rly good in doubles (not trolling )

edit: wait this isn't the apex thread <_<

 

[Reizilla]

I haven't lost to an mk since feb. And I'm pro ban because mk is broken.

I win against them cause I'm that much better. But when players of similar or equal skill play against them, they lose. Either that, or they play the ditto.

Counter picking doesn't matter, cause it doesn't work. Unless you are on a different level, you need to cp the ditto.

And that's ********.

Mk is ********. He doesn't make sense. Why a character that can make so many mistakes and live, but can kill off a single error? Why transcendent priority? Why planking? Why no counter picks?

Hell, the only thing he doesn't have is a projectile. But even without one, he's still got the strongest camping game in ssbb.

And that makes no sense.

 

[Cruxis]

i cant waittttttttttt to see the ban in effect i cant wait i cant wait i cant wait i cant wait

 

[AllyKnight]

You'll be in Egypt anyhow lol

 

[Cruxis]

no ill be back by the time apex is done :D

 

[UltimateRazer]

Soon soon once I feel more confident.



in pools yeah. he's getting 17th in bracket, losing to chibo and Razer D:

<3. I'm looking forward to playing the olimars.

 

[Judo777]

I seriously doubt DAY would have considered that an intentional forfeit and card you for not playing it

No your right she wouldn't have. However as we have already seen that penalty is not given by the TO but actually by the BRC. My giving kero 5 dollars was A-OK with every person at the tournament including the TO Hael. However The BRC MUST enforce the rules if they hear about it. Therefore I would have been FORCED to take a red card.