The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Tesh]

You wouldn't be carded. You can't forfeit because under the rules you already lost.

Though tbh, pausing does make for an easy way to forfeit without sandbagging. It would be pretty hilarious to see the usual offenders doing that in pools. 3 stock your buddy and pause 3 times before he dies. M2K, Anti, ADHD I just gave you guys a good one.

 

[Reizilla]

Better argument:
http://gobarbra.com/hit/new-d182ce7cb3478d63298e1eea87f9f112

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I know the double standard angle makes a lot of sense for you, but isn't the best way to get your point across.

The result is generally ignoring you.

Then again maybe people just want to ignore you.

I know

I'd say its almost entirely attributed to the fact that if MK is banned, it wont be for the reason youre giving, and as a practical matter it serves best for anti-ban to argue against the issue that will get him banned.

Right now the big argument against MK is to appeal to the communities well being (MK is used too much, MK hurts attendance/makes people quit, the game will be more fun without MK, everyone wants him banned, etc.).

I know

Semantics? What?

You're saying MK is on THIS tier?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY

No, I'm not. I'm saying that you define broken differently than I do.

 

[B.A.M.]

BB RC is probably going to ban MK. Don't you love having a group where 1/2 of these ppl are terribad/don't play the game dictate what should happen? This is so dumb. Im tired of the absurd bureaucracy that plagues this community.that stunts the community growth far more that Mr. Meta

 

[Tesh]

TOs have always been in charge. Is it really so much worse now that they have an official group and they work together?

Not to mention TOs are always going to chase after attendance. If you go by the poll results, isn't it better to please 75% of possible attendees as opposed to 25%? Its the same reason we play stock battles instead of coin battles. Its just what people prefer.

 

[DeLux]

BB RC is probably going to ban MK. Don't you love having a group where 1/2 of these ppl are terribad/don't play the game dictate what should happen? This is so dumb. Im tired of the absurd bureaucracy that plagues this community.that stunts the community growth far more that Mr. Meta

I take personal exception to this post and am deeply offended. I have worked on pretty much every issue that's arisen since becoming part of the committee and even some issues that aren't as topical in terms of recent incidents are concerned. Despite being the most polarizing member (or probably the side the advocates the minorities idea) during discussion, I've seen each committee member actively pursue a better ruleset in every way they know how.

I don't think that the level of player skills should matter for committee members. I can guarantee you that I probably know more about brawl than 99% of the community despite being easily the worst player on the committee by leaps and bounds. Skilled or not, we are definitely working as best we can to grow the community and giving the best ruleset possible to doing that.

This also goes to all of you people sending me the random skype hate messages as well. I'm not going to name anyone, but saying, "The ***** RC is dumb" doesn't really help persuade me to advocate your point of view. And that's some of the nicer things being said.

If you have an issue, say something productive and put your ideas out there. Blaming the committee and its members is cowardly and does little to nothing to advance debates on an issue level.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't see the point in suggesting anything when almost all of the stuff we say gets shot down because the majority doesn't want it, even if we can prove it is better for the game competitively :/

 

[Shadic]

I don't see the point in suggesting anything when almost all of the stuff we say gets shot down because the majority doesn't want it, even if we can prove it is better for the game competitively :/

I haven't seen any proof.

Can't wait for MK ban. MK ban, 1 stock matches may actually make this game possible to watch.

 

[Jane]

generally speaking, both sides shoot down each other's counter-arguments. both sides have their reasoning and neither side is truly wrong, it's simply a matter of what each camp feels is better for the community.

which is why, and i know i keep coming back to this, but seriously this is why we have to heavily consider the 75/25 ratio of the poll. majority should rule.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I haven't seen any proof.

This is exactly the problem with minority's ideals. Nobody is willing to test them.
People could easily test rules, stages, even setups or certain scenarios.
But they just do not.

And when people with the idea test them, they are generally shut down by "you need to test that on high-level play, not at your n00bish level".

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ghostbone and I have tested plenty of stages together in multiple match-ups using different strategies, but what proof can we give that will change the status quo? None.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

BB RC is probably going to ban MK. Don't you love having a group where 1/2 of these ppl are terribad/don't play the game dictate what should happen? This is so dumb. Im tired of the absurd bureaucracy that plagues this community.that stunts the community growth far more that Mr. Meta

If you think game skill matters at all you shouldn't be here arguing because you don't know anything.

This is entirely a philosophical difference. It has very little to do with who wins and loses. No one thinks banning MK is going to make them better except a few Peach and Toon Link mains. Stop forcing this tired argument down our throats when you have no data to back it up. Your gut feeling isn't enough. No, stop. It isn't.

 

[Orion*]

Stop forcing this tired argument down our throats when you have no data to back it up. Your gut feeling isn't enough. No, stop. It isn't.

You act is if this whole debate isn't "gut feeling" :/
The only actual analysis of the data was ignored, and everyone meat rides salt#s chart. While it does give great insight into what's going on, and I'm truly thankful we even have someone doing that, it isn't entirely conclusive and doesnt actually do anything with the data he gathered other than just advertise is in a biased way.

generally speaking, both sides shoot down each other's counter-arguments. both sides have their reasoning and neither side is truly wrong, it's simply a matter of what each camp feels is better for the community.

which is why, and i know i keep coming back to this, but seriously this is why we have to heavily consider the 75/25 ratio of the poll. majority should rule.

I can generally agree/understand this
If that was how most people acted about the situation I probably wouldnt care if they banned him tbqh

 

[Deleted member]

Updates I expect to see in version 1.5:

1. The ruling on whether or not MK will be banned in the ruleset.

2. An amendment to the current pausing rule.

3. The addition of Norfair as a counter-pick.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Personally, right now I only expect a 1.4.1 where the Pause rule is adressed, no other changes.

Spoiler

But any stage addition would be great.

 

[FoxFireMage]

I would love Norfair and Green Greens, maybe a few others

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You act is if this whole debate isn't "gut feeling" :/
The only actual analysis of the data was ignored, and everyone meat rides salt#s chart. While it does give great insight into what's going on, and I'm truly thankful we even have someone doing that, it isn't entirely conclusive and doesnt actually do anything with the data he gathered other than just advertise is in a biased way.

Totally get that. But he and much of "anti-ban" are kind of going for a "everyone who wants MK banned is just bad and out for themselves" argument.

There's a difference between talking about ideological differences and using numbers to reinforce your views and blatantly generalizing people you don't agree with. He's got to be able to back that up, and he can't. M2k can't either but he'll keep trying.

Numbers say very little, I said so in a post earlier. This is an ideological debate at this point and since no minority is being persecuted here, the majority should rule.

 

[Omni]

Totally get that. But he and much of "anti-ban" are kind of going for a "everyone who wants MK banned is just bad and out for themselves" argument.

Don't agree with this.

Numbers say very little, I said so in a post earlier. This is an ideological debate at this point and since no minority is being persecuted here, the majority should rule.

Agree for the most part except I'd rather get a more detailed poll from actual smash tournament attendees rather than SWF. From what I've seen the majority of people who complain and argue the most about MK don't even go to tournaments.

 

[Juushichi]

I feel like the above was more valid back when BPC and the stage rage crew were always on the boards and BPC didn't actually go tournaments like a year or two ago.

However I don't think this is quite as applicable anymore. Especially when you see regions of NA already banning him via local TO's hosting tournaments.

 

[Omni]

That is true.

 

[Ussi]

Based off the AiB unofficial poll, a statistical aanalysis of the first few pages of voters had 50% of the voters that went to tourneys and 50% didn't, both having a 3-1 ratio of banning MK. More people who didn't go to tourneys actually opted to not ban MK

 

[Omni]

Yeah, but that's because that's AiB: Home of the Wi-Fi Exclusives.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

For the record, Ghostbone and I are currently ranked 1st and 2nd respectively in our state and are both "stage ragers" who have been debating about MK.

Though I'm guessing you were talking about other people.

 

[Juushichi]

All is Brawl is also home to most of the West Coast's information and scene as well, Omni.

 

[Omni]

M'hm. I'm aware.

 

[Ghostbone]

For the record, Ghostbone and I are currently ranked 1st and 2nd respectively in our state and are both "stage ragers" who have been debating about MK.

Though I'm guessing you were talking about other people.

What about Apollo and Nova!
/They're better than us even if they don't want to be ranked >.>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Apollo is QLD now and Nova doesn't play Brawl anymore, really.

 

[R e d X]

generally speaking, both sides shoot down each other's counter-arguments. both sides have their reasoning and neither side is truly wrong, it's simply a matter of what each camp feels is better for the community.

which is why, and i know i keep coming back to this, but seriously this is why we have to heavily consider the 75/25 ratio of the poll. majority should rule.

Were this a fair poll of JUST people who attend tournaments and who actually took the game seriously, I may have to agree with this because you are correct, neither side is completely wrong. But this poll is subject to heavy sampling bias. Those who are interested in banning MK will find the poll first, and many MK mains won't find it at all. Heck I didn't even find the poll myself, I heard about it from a friend who was pro-ban and was trying to convince everyone to vote pro-ban.

The only other thing I have to say on the MK ban topic is that one reason he's used so much (aside from being easy to pick up) is because he's the best character in the game. People who want to be the best will use the best character (mostly). Even if he was the best but in the same tier as others (say A-Tier) he would still be widely used because the best character in the game has the best chance of winning.

I think that all of the reasonable and productive evidence had been presented in regards to this topic with the possible exeption of one or two small points. The BBRC will decide what they decide and that's how the game will be played. They know more about the game than most of us out there. That's why they're the BBRC.

Btw kinda curious, when do you guys think the decision will be made?

 

[Steam]

so now that there's enough majority to reasonably say what the people want, people just undermine the validity of the poll? cool.

if someone honestly doesn't care enough to vote on the poll that everyone is talking about everywhere then they probably shouldn't get a voice. in elections they don't compensate for people who were too lazy to vote.

 

[B.A.M.]

If you think game skill matters at all you shouldn't be here arguing because you don't know anything.

This is entirely a philosophical difference. It has very little to do with who wins and loses. No one thinks banning MK is going to make them better except a few Peach and Toon Link mains. Stop forcing this tired argument down our throats when you have no data to back it up. Your gut feeling isn't enough. No, stop. It isn't.

You really are an idiot. Majority of these ppl haven't taken a legit statistics course in their life ( talking about the community) so they don't even read john numbers data right. Yes skill matters; the more skill you have in a game the more you understand the game. If I barely knew about falco's CG and momentum cancel and every1 was *****ing about falco, I would be more inclined to ban him. You're seriously a moron for thinking ppl are somewhat biased on the matter due to this. Hey if you get into an accident and potentially need.surgery lets leave it up the transportation operator to decide for you Kay?

Pahahaha I can't believe someone would say that. You think a group where some of the members don't even play smash should dictate the fate of the community? Alright man if you say so. You tell me, what they are basing their decisions on?

Im sorry.it this bothers me because I'm used to previous fighting game communities I was from. Alas I'm sure this post doesn't matter because based off what I've taken from majority of these TOs, they're going to ban the bat in a heartbeat. Of course mk is the best character; overcentralization is what happens as a result. This is what happens in fighters. Too much ppl with a casual mindset.

 

[Steam]

You really are an idiot. Majority of these ppl haven't taken a legit statistics course in their life ( talking about the community) so they don't even read john numbers data right. Yes skill matters; the more skill you have in a game the more you understand the game. If I barely knew about falco's CG and momentum cancel and every1 was *****ing about falco, I would be more inclined to ban him. You're seriously a moron for thinking ppl are somewhat biased on the matter due to this. Hey if you get into an accident and potentially need.surgery lets leave it up the transportation operator to decide for you Kay?

Pahahaha I can't believe someone would say that. You think a group where some of the members don't even play smash should dictate the fate of the community? Alright man if you say so. You tell me, what they are basing their decisions on?

Im sorry.it this bothers me because I'm used to previous fighting game communities I was from. Alas I'm sure this post doesn't matter because based off what I've taken from majority of these TOs, they're going to ban the bat in a heartbeat. Of course mk is the best character; overcentralization is what happens as a result. This is what happens in fighters. Too much ppl with a casual mindset.

last time I checked the ruleset committee did play this game

 

[B.A.M.]

The BBRC will decide what they decide and that's how the game will be played. They know more about the game than MOST of us out there. That's why they're the BBRC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU

No they will decide because they.are the ones that run the tournaments. They dictate Unity and we have virtually no say ultimately.

And look around you; the decision has been made. How many people are for meta? Or rahter how many are, who are in power positions? None. GG Meta. Bring back the casual players that are garbage anyways. My man M2k is prolly heated about the whole thing. LOL I wonder what's going to happen to So Cal. Lol I think we're just gonna lose players. Rankings will barely change lol

EDIT: I'm not talking about each individual. Chibo plays, my man Mike Haze plays, AZ, bizkit and keitaro. Very few are in the upper echelons of smash. Some BARELY play. There's like random girls in it that just host.

You didn't check. You just saw the names of some who post.

 

[Steam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU

No they will decide because they.are the ones that run the tournaments. They dictate Unity and we have virtually no say ultimately.

And look around you; the decision has been made. How many people are for meta? Or rahter how many are, who are in power positions? None. GG Meta. Bring back the casual players that are garbage anyways. My man M2k is prolly heated about the whole thing. LOL I wonder what's going to happen to So Cal. Lol I think we're just gonna lose players. Rankings will barely change lol

players don't just quit because of MK because they lose to him. garbage players will lose to everyone. they can also quit because they're sick of playing only MK. but either way bringing back more players is a GOOD thing and the TOs would have the final say anyways because they run the tournaments.

and honestly... I wouldn't mind if we lost certain players. Several top players have done irreversible damage to the brawl community and other communities' perception of us.

edit: you don't have to be good to have knowledge of the game or be more correct. some top players will say they don't really analyze or understand the specifics the game much but they just play the game and are successful. everyone is entitled to an opinion and no one is really right, the idea shouldn't be to cater to top players...

 

[B.A.M.]

You act is if this whole debate isn't "gut feeling" :/
The only actual analysis of the data was ignored, and everyone meat rides salt#s chart. While it does give great insight into what's going on, and I'm truly thankful we even have someone doing that, it isn't entirely conclusive and doesnt actually do anything with the data he gathered other than just advertise is in a biased way.

Thank you Orion. The majority of this debate is straight emotion. That's what freaking bothers me. Again I'm going to reiterate; majority of the community doesn't even understand john numbers data. All they see is john whipping it out, declaring mk is bad and everyone looks at the numbers, they see big numbers and say "o it must be right and I'm tired of getting shuttle looped at 60% and dying." As I stated long before as well, you need to have actual tournament players in this poll, not someone with training mode thinking ( trip to falcon punch true combo BS). Ppl are bitter dude. This is like how after 9/11 death penalties were rushed to feed American bloodlust, even though they were realizing a ton of death row inmates were getting acquitted Dna evidence was showing they were innocent.

Lets be real. Most ppl hate the ditto. Ppl are tired of watching M2K, Anti, or Ally Knight win. People miss Ally. People are tired of having to focus vs MK. People want melee hype (where the best plsyer actually tries to put on a show even though he.admitted being defensive is definitely surperior). That's why he's getting banned. Everything else is just convoluted BS.

EDIT: not saying we should cater to top players, what I'm saying is they should be apart of the decision making. TOs have every right to have an opinion, but I think its stupid that they don't have players like Ally M2K Larry ADHD TKD Gnes Razer Anti Mr. R and any japanese/ europe top players aiding in the core decision making. They should have weight in the matter.this community always talks about not catering to top players lol. When is that done in terms of besides some M2K instances? Top players have NO decision making power. It should go like this; you have top players and you have TOs that are supposed to represent the people. That would make sense.

 

[Mekos]

I take personal exception to this post and am deeply offended. I have worked on pretty much every issue that's arisen since becoming part of the committee and even some issues that aren't as topical in terms of recent incidents are concerned. Despite being the most polarizing member (or probably the side the advocates the minorities idea) during discussion, I've seen each committee member actively pursue a better ruleset in every way they know how.

I don't think that the level of player skills should matter for committee members. I can guarantee you that I probably know more about brawl than 99% of the community despite being easily the worst player on the committee by leaps and bounds. Skilled or not, we are definitely working as best we can to grow the community and giving the best ruleset possible to doing that.

This also goes to all of you people sending me the random skype hate messages as well. I'm not going to name anyone, but saying, "The ***** RC is dumb" doesn't really help persuade me to advocate your point of view. And that's some of the nicer things being said.

If you have an issue, say something productive and put your ideas out there. Blaming the committee and its members is cowardly and does little to nothing to advance debates on an issue level.

No offense but SKILL should be the deciding factor on who makes the rules. When official organizations think about changing rules(like MLG) or gameplay(like Capcom) they ask the pros. Not everyone in the community. The people who know what's up are the ones living it and able to do it. So many people talk the big talk but get last place at tourneys. No offense but however we define "pros" in our community should be the ones to make the decisions and have the most pull. That's how it is done in every single competitive scene in this world.

They don't go around asking regular citizens or amateur basketball players how they think the NBA should be tweeked. MLG doesn't ask regular players how they think the setups should be for their games.(they ask the pros for their input). Team ninja asked the pros of dead or allve what they thought needed to be tweaked not the average player. That's real talk. Basically people getting top 10 at tourneys should be the ones deciding this stuff(That's just an idea). They are the ones who have a certain skill level to actually decide whether a mk is truly broken lol.

No offense to anyone. Also, usually top players ARE the one's who have dedicated the most time to the game in perfecting their gameplay. M2k for example said he and tyrant spent a whole summer practing their mk sacrificing other things to do that. He also said he didn't go to college for a few semesters for smash. That is just an example. We not here to judge his actions that is just a point to prove most top players put in more effort. A person who goes to a local every now and then shouldn't have impact on major decisions(that is just an example).

 

[R e d X]

so now that there's enough majority to reasonably say what the people want, people just undermine the validity of the poll? cool.

if someone honestly doesn't care enough to vote on the poll that everyone is talking about everywhere then they probably shouldn't get a voice. in elections they don't compensate for people who were too lazy to vote.

If you think that a poll like that doesn't have some serious bias, I think you're crazy lol. I don't deny that the majority of people I have spoken to are pro-ban, it was a statement only in regrads to the poll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU

No they will decide because they.are the ones that run the tournaments. They dictate Unity and we have virtually no say ultimately.

And look around you; the decision has been made. How many people are for meta? Or rahter how many are, who are in power positions? None. GG Meta. Bring back the casual players that are garbage anyways. My man M2k is prolly heated about the whole thing. LOL I wonder what's going to happen to So Cal. Lol I think we're just gonna lose players. Rankings will barely change lol

EDIT: I'm not talking about each individual. Chibo plays, my man Mike Haze plays, AZ, bizkit and keitaro. Very few are in the upper echelons of smash. Some BARELY play. There's like random girls in it that just host.

You didn't check. You just saw the names of some who post.

I know a few people from the BBRC both in person and online and I disagree with the community not getting a say. They put up the poll didn't they? Just becuase I think it's biased doesn't mean it's not an effort to get the community involved. BBRC members when I live (and elsewhere online) seem to take serious community comments seriously. Some people just whine about MK. That, they ignore. But not the legit people.

And you don't have to play to know about the game. I know a few people who are garbage at the game but know more about the meta-game than me. I also really don't believe that more top players wouldn't be able to get into the BBRC if they tried. Moreover I think it's importnat ot have high level players in the RC. They must know SOMETHING about the game if they are where they are. But that;s up to them if they wanna join. Some don't care, that's fine, but other join. People get into the BBRC because they applied and knew what they were talking about. If they somehow got in but were clueless, they wouldn't be in anymore.

Though you are correct in one sense. They will make the decision and that will be that. This current discussion is repetitive and pointless, so let's just leave it alone and let the RC deal with it. I trust in their judgement more than my own.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I don't like how 60% of people on SWF's don't even SERIOUSLY attend tourneys or do well for that matter whenever they decide to show up to a tourney. But they get influence on things such as MK bans, and stage influence.

That alone to me is beyond ********

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You really are an idiot. Majority of these ppl]

stopped here

 

[Ussi]

Should have a poll for the voters:

How often do you attend tourneys?

weekly to biweekly
monthly
bimonthly to every few months
yearly
I don't attend tourneys

 

[Ripple]

sorry mekos but that's just plain wrong.

capcom asks the pros on issues of BALANCING, not ruleset changes