The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Mekos]

I don't understand your comment, but I'm always speaking generally.
People need to humble themselves and do their best to get better.

For example in the past I didn't know how to quickly grab the ledge. Fow loled at me but he taught me. And now that is a great tool in my arsenal. It's great for avoiding mks tornado and pressuring people while edge guarding. That is a basic technique in the game that everyone can do.

 

[Cassio]

My new compromise solution:

Rather than banning MK, lets ban M2K, Anti, and Tyrant from entering tounaments, hence creating a situation where almost everybody wins.

-It's fair to m2k, anti, tyrant since theyd quit the game if MK were to be banned anyways
-Results at nationals and top level play become instantly more interesting
-Theres no excuse for anyone to lose inferior MKs who havent spent countless hours training and competing, and therefore no good reason for people to quit.
-The game maintains its integrity

You might ask what we might do if another metaknight were to step up and dominate in brawl? Well if anyone were silly enough to invest an extraordinary amount time to dominate the game as metaknight we'd just ban them too.

 

[Steam]

I don't understand your comment, but I'm always speaking generally.

because you're telling us how to play against MK specifically as if we have no clue.

but either way dash shield isn't amazing against MK because MK can **** you in so many ways for it... but MK can do that with EVERY option you try so...

 

[Mekos]

lololololol nice

well obviously u don't have a clue if your losing to low-level pocket mks. We aren't talking about M2k and Anti here. They are ****** not because of just mk but because they are getting great reads on their opponent and cutting off the opponents options.

If you feel u have no options like I ONCE DID! Then go to the training room and advance your character.
Here is a perfect example. There isn't one diddy in the USA who has mastered that banana lock foot stool thingy who gets it in tourney like the Japanese do.
They may be able to do it in practice but have they practice setups for it and stuff. Definitely not since they aren't even getting it off. U see what I am saying. There is still growth to be done.

 

[Steam]

lololololol nice

well obviously u don't have a clue if your losing to low-level pocket mks. We aren't talking about M2k and Anti here. They are ****** not because of just mk but because they are getting great reads on their opponent and cutting off the opponents options

never said I lost to low level pocket MKs. and if they're so great they should be able to still do pretty well with a character that doesn't limit their opponent's options for them <_>

and with lucario, the only things that can really work are hard reads and the gimmicky things people who don't know the matchup fall into. Anti vs. Junebug is a perfect example of this.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I'd also like to add that when people play Falco/Diddy/Snake/Marth they aren't inclined to ditto them after losing or before the set has started. That's a MK exclusive.

 

[Mekos]

That's simply because he is the best character in the game and the way brawl is as a fighter.
My words of advice are for those complaining about mk. Because he is not broken and not that bad. He is bad, but not that bad! lol

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@El Dimino. Smash is like a game of chess. Yes, certain characters have more pieces but every character has the same basic pieces to begin with. Like shielding, air dodge, down dodge, rolling, etc. That's what people first need to master how to use. All the basics that people can do and will do, and learn how to read when they are done.

...Except they don't. Compare MK's froll or airdodge to Bowser's, or Diddy's shield to Jiggs's.

 

[Mekos]

I'm sorry yall I'm tired right now. Imma college student and am going to take a power nap now. I'll check in later

 

[fkacyan]

Ok then, using SF3S's metagame, how often are/were grand finals Chun dittos? I think, if compared, the numbers would be much greater for MK Dittos than for Chun-li

Did you follow 3S at all? The last EVO 3S tourney's results was 7/8 chun-li in the top 8, with Daigo as the only non Chun.

 

[Omni]

 

[Zankoku]

Did you follow 3S at all? The last EVO 3S tourney's results was 7/8 chun-li in the top 8, with Daigo as the only non Chun.

edit, nvm, found a 2008
EVO 2003
1. KO (Yun)
2. Daigo Umehara (Ken)
3. KSK (Alex)
4. Ino (Yun/Makoto)
5. hsien (Ken)
5. Ricky Ortiz (Chun)
7. Mopreme (Ken/Chun)
7. Nuki (Chun)
Overall:
3 Chun
2 Yun
2 Ken
1 Alex
1 Makoto

EVO 2004
1. KO (Yun)
2. Daigo Umehara (Ken)
3. Jwong (Chun)
4. Raoh (Chun)
5. KSK (Alex)
5. Kokujin (Dudley)
7. hsien (Ken)
7. Watts (Ken)
Overall:
3 Ken
2 Chun
1 Yun
1 Alex
1 Dudley

EVO 2005
1. Nuki (Chun)
2. Jwong (Chun)
3. Nitto (Yun)
4. Mester (Yun)
5. Ricky Ortiz (Chun)
5. Kokujin (Dudley)
7. RF (Chun)
7. MOV (Chun)
Overall:
5 Chun
2 Yun
1 Dudley

EVO 2006
1. Nitto (Yun)
2. Issei (Yun)
3. Nuki (Chun)
4. Mester (Yun)
5. PyroLee (Yun)
5. Tokido (Chun/Urien)
7. Amir (Chun)
7. Alex Valle (Ken)
Overall:
4 Yun
3 Chun
1 Ken
1 Urien

EVO 2007
1. Nuki (Chun)
2. Tokido (Chun)
3. Alex Valle (Ken/Ryu)
4. Mike Wakefield (Makoto)
5. Fubarduck (Chun)
5. David Hem (Necro)
7. Ricky Ortiz (Chun)
7. Ed Ma (Ken)
Overall:
4 Chun
2 Ken
1 Ryu
1 Makoto
1 Necro

EVO 2008
1. Nuki (Chun)
2. JWong (Chun)
3. Amir (Chun)
4. Tokido (Chun/Urien)
5. Fubarduck (Chun)
5. JR (Akuma)
7. Prodigal Son (Ken/Yun)
7. Watts (Yun/Ken)
Overall:
5 Chun
2 Yun
2 Ken
1 Urien
1 Akuma

 

[Omni]

Lol, did a search and found 2006's results.

Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike

1st. Nitto (Yun)
2nd. Issei (Yun)
3rd. Ohnuki (Chun-Li)
4th. Mester (Yun)
5th (tie). Tokido (Chun-Li, Urien)
5th (tie). Pyrolee (Yun)
7th (tie). Amir (Chun-Li)
7th (tie). Alex Valle (Ken)

Players still contest that 3s was the best Street Fighter of all time.

 

[fkacyan]

Lol, did a search and found 2006's results.

Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike

1st. Nitto (Yun)
2nd. Issei (Yun)
3rd. Ohnuki (Chun-Li)
4th. Mester (Yun)
5th (tie). Tokido (Chun-Li, Urien)
5th (tie). Pyrolee (Yun)
7th (tie). Amir (Chun-Li)
7th (tie). Alex Valle (Ken)

Players still contest that 3s was the best Street Fighter of all time.

Yeah, Yun was popular that year.

EDIT:

7/8 Chun was a small exaggeration, emphasis on the small. I've yet to see Brawl results at a major that look much like those.

EDIT2: Thanks to Ankoku for pulling up the results, I'm at work and am currently unable to.

 

[Cassio]

wow at the above posts. Current status of the "MK is too dominant" argument.

 

[Judo777]

Alright well for clarification I did NOT pause on purpose. Why would I had him killed. I paused on accident then stood up admitting that I paused (on accident) because its the right thing to do, and was prepared to take the loss because I paused.

Idk if you guys though I paused because I was convinced he was gonna kill me because that makes no sense, I was at like 20%

 

[popsofctown]

Alright well for clarification I did NOT pause on purpose. Why would I had him killed. I paused on accident then stood up admitting that I paused (on accident) because its the right thing to do, and was prepared to take the loss because I paused.

Idk if you guys though I paused because I was convinced he was gonna kill me because that makes no sense, I was at like 20%

Dude I was just speculating in lieu of info. If you say it was accidental I totally believe you.

 

[Player-1]

I heard those purples kill people around that %age


but, IDK about chun li, IDK much about streetfighter metagame and what not. If it's something like MK where 50% of the community uses er then I probably would be pro ban of chun li, but I can't say for certain as I'm unfamiliar with their community.

 

[Orion*]

you act as if we haven't been for several years. (then gave up and just learned the MK ditto in my case)

Most people have horrible basics in this game. If you look at things like the basic tech skill, spacing, and game knowledge of most players, at least one area they many times severely lacking until like TOP TOP level play aka m2k/dehf/adhd/ally status.

 

[DMG]

Ally has the best basics in the game

Hands down

 

[Doc King]

It's funny u mention that. Let's use junebug for an example. He beat M2k at ktar. I was there in person. He next played Anti and two stocked him the first game! Anti then won the next two games 2 stocks I think. U know why this happened. M2k didn't adapt. Anti did adapt. Junebug was doing the exact same thing over and over. Even I knew what he was going to do next. I even told him this after his game 2 but he didn't adapt or do anything different. Anti continued to 2 stock him game 3. Smash is a game about adapting and reading your opponent.

People are refusing to adapt and want their current playstyles to work. Since it isn't working against mk they just want him banned. Simple. By the way, the lucas matchup is simple and alot of people know it. U just don't approach. I play plenty of the gayest and campiest mks on wifi. I still win because smash is a mental game and u can always find a way. You just have to be real patient and don't get bent out of shape mentally.

lol. If you read people's comments on AIB. So many say "because of that bull! I am now pro-ban". The salt is what is driving this. Can't yall see it lol.

Dude, we adapted so hard on beating mk and things only gotten worse.

Are you ****ing serious? I was the best ****ing DDD in America for a very large span of my brawl career. I may even be him still to this day, but I don't care about having that title anymore.

I've beaten almost every single top player in America without MK, even going as far down in tiers to ****ing Luigi. I even ****ing beat Rain when he came over. In fact off hand the only TOP level player that I haven't ever beat in a set is M2K and I take games off of him with Wario, Diddy, Wolf and a **** ton of other characters you can think of.

If you really think Ally got to where he is right now because of MK you've either been living under a rock or you're just ********.

M2K was the most consistent to player in America before he ever even picked MK. He was the person that inspired me to take DDD seriously.

Anti was ALWAYS beating ADHD with Snake for a very long time.

I really can't believe that people like you who spit out bull**** such as this should have their opinion ever taken seriously.

I'm sorry, I didn't relize that. I didn't get into this game until like 2010, so I apologize if I was incorrect.

The main thing I'm trying to say is that sometimes ppl will play or pocket mk in order to increase their chances in winning and no fighting game should be overcentralized on one character.

doc king you are an idiot and dont know ****. Please take your idiot nerd virgin loser garbage mouth elsewhere. Ty

How am I an idiot? Stop making post please.

When is the decision going to be made if mk is banned or not?
I think instead of banning mk, his tornado's should be banned. He would still be the best by far, but he won't be as good. If thats not possible, then I want mk banned.
MK destroys most of the characters chances of becoming good. The only characters he helps are wolf and fox. MK does not require as much skill to be good with as all the other characters. To be good with MK, you need to learn his combo's, learn how to use tornado with out being predictable, and learn how to edge hog. MK has almost no cons. MK has no bad match ups or even match ups. MK has the most pro's: Gliding, fast running speed, almost all attacks have little or no lag, 6 jumps, unpredictable and excellent recovery, great DI, has no disadvantageous or even match ups, fastest shield roll, can glide twice, great edge guarder, many combo's, tornado is the best move in the game, great camper, great grab game, great air dodge.

Efdjfhdkjfhdjhkjdkjfndjfhkjdsfheriufhiodjflodn

It's not just the nado that makes him so good, it's also his planking game, his shuttle loop, his down smash, etc.

We've nerfed him in the past, time to move on to another plan.

My new compromise solution:

Rather than banning MK, lets ban M2K, Anti, and Tyrant from entering tounaments, hence creating a situation where almost everybody wins.

-It's fair to m2k, anti, tyrant since theyd quit the game if MK were to be banned anyways
-Results at nationals and top level play become instantly more interesting
-Theres no excuse for anyone to lose inferior MKs who havent spent countless hours training and competing, and therefore no good reason for people to quit.
-The game maintains its integrity

You might ask what we might do if another metaknight were to step up and dominate in brawl? Well if anyone were silly enough to invest an extraordinary amount time to dominate the game as metaknight we'd just ban them too.

We shouldn't ban players, that would just be stupid.

That's simply because he is the best character in the game and the way brawl is as a fighter.
My words of advice are for those complaining about mk. Because he is not broken and not that bad. He is bad, but not that bad! lol

He is broken for the last time. Answer this, if he wasn't broken, then why does 75% of the community want to ban him?

 

[Zankoku]

He is broken for the last time. Answer this, if he wasn't broken, then why does 75% of the community want to ban him?

...wait, what? Popular vote determines how broken a character is?

 

[fkacyan]

He is broken for the last time. Answer this, if he wasn't broken, then why does 75% of the community want to ban him?

They're scrubs? Appeal to Majority is not a valid argument.

Also, when I think broken I think Ivan Ooze, or the original SF2 Akuma.

 

[popsofctown]

Textbook appeal to majority.

 

[zmx]

So I've noticed in recent tournys there seems to be a lot of MK banning. This clearly indicates as I've been informed that in the Unity ruleset it might become a permanent thing. Just to clarify this means every major tourny including Apex would have him banned correct?

Now this is absurd to me for a couple of reasons. First off MK isn't some dominant force that no one can deal with and that wins every tourney. Tons of non-banned MK tournys have been won by other characters. Heck the last Apex, MK didn't even come first or second. If in every tourny the top 10 placings were all MKs I'd understand the rationale but this clearly isn't the case at all.

Another major reason someone might give for banning him is planking. But this such an easy problem to fix. Simply have a really low ledge grab limit for MK. You don't have to go to the extreme of actually banning him and I've seen tons of great MKs that don't abuse planking.

Lastly, another justification I"ve heard a lot of people use is that he's the perfect character with no weaknesses so he's not fair. Another thing I find ridiculous. Here's two major MK cons I can think of from the top of my head:

1. Very light character. He dies earlier than a ton of other characters in the game even with good DI and momentum cancelling.

2. Lack of any projectile meaning you can't force someone to approach. Rather with MK you are forced to approach yourself.

I mean really. Just because a ton of people have trouble with him doesn't justify slapping every MK main in the face who've put the time and effort to get great with him. Let them learn the matchups better. This is only going to discourage people from attending tournys. It is really stupid to think good MK players got where they are because of MK. If that was the case as I've said, EVERY tourny would be won by DIFFERENT MK players.

 

[zmx]

"He is broken for the last time. Answer this, if he wasn't broken, then why does 75% of the community want to ban him? "

Answer this, if the world isn't flat why did 99% of people think it was prior to the 16th century?

Yeah, what great logic. Obviously.

 

[popsofctown]

I disagree, I think his logic was rather poor in that instance

 

[clowsui]

"He is broken for the last time. Answer this, if he wasn't broken, then why does 75% of the community want to ban him? "

Answer this, if the world isn't flat why did 99% of people think it was prior to the 16th century?

Yeah, what great logic. Obviously.

just so you know this is a misconception, the greeks figured out the world was round a while before columbus went to america and magellan circumnavigated

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What is it with everyone and meatriding this Logic guy? He's not even national level...

 

[John12346]

Ugh, the poll ending in 75.91% doesn't mean MK is broken, it just means that *about* 75.91% people want MK out of the game, easy.

It might be more or less due to not everyone voting, as well as the voter filter, but we can't really say whether that would mean pro-ban or anti-ban would get more votes, so 75.91% with an uncertainty range of... 5% would work? Making a range of 70.91% to 80.91% is a good estimation, I guess?

 

[popsofctown]

Ugh, the poll ending in 75.91% doesn't mean MK is broken, it just means that *about* 75.91% people want MK out of the game, easy.

It might be more or less due to not everyone voting, as well as the voter filter, but we can't really say whether that would mean pro-ban or anti-ban would get more votes, so 75.91% with an uncertainty range of... 5% would work? Making a range of 70.91% to 80.91% is a good estimation, I guess?

There is no statistical method for evaluating how a systematic bias may have affected your votes, really.

 

[fkacyan]

Ugh, the poll ending in 75.91% doesn't mean MK is broken, it just means that *about* 75.91% people want MK out of the game, easy.

It might be more or less due to not everyone voting, as well as the voter filter, but we can't really say whether that would mean pro-ban or anti-ban would get more votes, so 75.91% with an uncertainty range of... 5% would work? Making a range of 70.91% to 80.91% is a good estimation, I guess?

You'd say that poll is within a 5% certainty range? You're a much more forgiving statistician than I am. I'd say closer to 10% or 15%. It's certainly not a poll I'd depend on for "reliable" results, but I doubt that rigor was something the BBRC was looking for.

 

[John12346]

Actually, yeah, you're right. 5% isn't enough, considering the drastically lowered sample size from last time. 10% is probably better to compensate.

 

[Doc King]

"He is broken for the last time. Answer this, if he wasn't broken, then why does 75% of the community want to ban him? "

Answer this, if the world isn't flat why did 99% of people think it was prior to the 16th century?

Yeah, what great logic. Obviously.

That's not my only argument. Dude look at his tourney winnings. He is 5 times better than the rest of the cast (Quite a gigantic level). He also gets half the tourney paper (Doesn't seem fair for the others in Brawl). Lets face facts ppl, MK is broken and was always been thast way and nothing has ever worked or changed about it. MK was always on top. We've tried a lot of things before, but they all failed to a miserable extent today. So that leaves up no option but to ban him.

I can't believe there's still ppl who think that mk isn't broken. I can explain a whole lot more and I will explain it if you guys can't get the point.

Also, according to fighting games, there should be character countering, where things just balance and improve by metagame. Not just have one character ONLY completely taking over the whole game (Like mk is the only viable character and the rest are trash). Brawl is gonna turn out to be like MK Battles: Battle of the MKs instead of what it should be, which is a Nintendo fighting game (Even casual play like Basic Brawl mk is Supremely broken because of his infinite cape and the ability to plank and can scrooge on many stages like Sky World. So don't give me that excuse that Nintendo was supossed to be a party game because mk can severly break that too into mk battles).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Also considering naval navigation of the time was dependent on the world being round, with how it worked...

*EDIT* whoa like 6 posts, stupid laggy internet -_-

 

[fkacyan]

That's not my only argument. Dude look at his tourney winnings. He is 5 times better than the rest of the cast (Quite a gigantic level). He also gets half the tourney paper (Doesn't seem fair for the others in Brawl). Lets face facts ppl, MK is broken and was always been thast way and nothing has ever worked or changed about it. MK was always on top. We've tried a lot of things before, but they all failed to a miserable extent today. So that leaves up no option but to ban him.

I can't believe there's still ppl who think that mk isn't broken. I can explain a whole lot more and I will explain it if you guys can't get the point.

Also, according to fighting games, there should be character countering, where things just balance and improve by metagame. Not just have one character ONLY completely taking over the whole game (Like mk is the only viable character and the rest are trash). Brawl is gonna turn out to be like MK Battles: Battle of the MKs instead of what it should be, which is a Nintendo fighting game (Even casual play like Basic Brawl mk is Supremely broken because of his infinite cape and the ability to plank and can scrooge on many stages like Sky World. So don't give me that excuse that Nintendo was supossed to be a party game because mk can severly break that too into mk battles).

I occasionally forget why there is an ignore function. Thank you for the reminder.

 

[Doc King]

I occasionally forget why there is an ignore function. Thank you for the reminder.

So you're just gonna run away from an argument over mk being banned instead of debating about it? That's another reason why mk should be banned because all of the anti arguments seem to be for the most part rather stupid and invalid compared to the pro arguments. Thanks for helping me get my point straight with the anti banners.

 

[Mekos]

never said I lost to low level pocket MKs. and if they're so great they should be able to still do pretty well with a character that doesn't limit their opponent's options for them <_>

and with lucario, the only things that can really work are hard reads and the gimmicky things people who don't know the matchup fall into. Anti vs. Junebug is a perfect example of this.

Goodness you are not reading my comments at all. I already told u I was there in person and saw what happened. Junebug beat M2k who did not adapt. He then beat Anti 2 stock. Anti then adapted and learned Junebugs habits and 2 stocked him game 2. I told Junebug he was doing the exact same thing over and over. He still continued to play the exact same way. Anti 2 stocked him game three as well. Everything junebug was going to do, I even knew what was coming. He refused to adapt himself and got frustrated that his current playstyle failed. Anti would have beat him no matter what character he used because he had Junebug's playstyle down and read him like a book.

Stop putting characters into a box like lucario. People have put lucas in a box for years calling him a bad character, but I don't let that affect me and made him alot better. I have advanced his metagame. Esam did the same thing with pikachu and Fow did it with Ness. That's what I mean by stop crying and take the time to get better. Maybe YOU are the next person to advance lucario! Or are you going to whine and say he has no options because you have not advanced him yourself(if you truly believe he has no options)!

 

[R e d X]

That's not my only argument. Dude look at his tourney winnings. He is 5 times better than the rest of the cast (Quite a gigantic level). He also gets half the tourney paper (Doesn't seem fair for the others in Brawl). Lets face facts ppl, MK is broken and was always been thast way and nothing has ever worked or changed about it. MK was always on top. We've tried a lot of things before, but they all failed to a miserable extent today. So that leaves up no option but to ban him.

I can't believe there's still ppl who think that mk isn't broken. I can explain a whole lot more and I will explain it if you guys can't get the point.

Also, according to fighting games, there should be character countering, where things just balance and improve by metagame. Not just have one character ONLY completely taking over the whole game (Like mk is the only viable character and the rest are trash). Brawl is gonna turn out to be like MK Battles: Battle of the MKs instead of what it should be, which is a Nintendo fighting game (Even casual play like Basic Brawl mk is Supremely broken because of his infinite cape and the ability to plank and can scrooge on many stages like Sky World. So don't give me that excuse that Nintendo was supossed to be a party game because mk can severly break that too into mk battles).

I don't think anyone can deny that he's too good, it's just a matter of "is it enough to ban him." The meta-game is a little too MK centered, but looking at his match ups, his odds against all other top tier characters are rarely over 60:40 (and are even considered even by a few other character groups such as Falco and Wario), and while he SHOULD have at least some negative matchups, its not like he has an overwhelming advantage across the board. And imo a 55:45 matchup can be brought back to even or even more due to difference in things like playstyle. It would be great if MK was patched, but he wasn't so w.e.

At this point, I think banning him would hurt the community more than help it as I believe (and again this is my opinion) that we would lose more players than we would gain from such an action. In any case, the high (pro) level of play wouldn't be greatly affected anyways. If you want to be the best, you use a top-tier character, not a low-tier one. The only largely affected area by MK is the mid level of play, and is it worth fixing the mid-level of play and screwing over some high level players who have dedicated years to MK? Again that's opinion-based, but I think not.

Anyways, that's pretty much how I feel about all of this. In short, if I had a choice I'd say I'm anti-ban, but I definitly see the point of the pro-banners as well.

 

[zmx]

That's not my only argument. Dude look at his tourney winnings. He is 5 times better than the rest of the cast (Quite a gigantic level). He also gets half the tourney paper (Doesn't seem fair for the others in Brawl). Lets face facts ppl, MK is broken and was always been thast way and nothing has ever worked or changed about it. MK was always on top. We've tried a lot of things before, but they all failed to a miserable extent today. So that leaves up no option but to ban him.

I can't believe there's still ppl who think that mk isn't broken. I can explain a whole lot more and I will explain it if you guys can't get the point.

Also, according to fighting games, there should be character countering, where things just balance and improve by metagame. Not just have one character ONLY completely taking over the whole game (Like mk is the only viable character and the rest are trash). Brawl is gonna turn out to be like MK Battles: Battle of the MKs instead of what it should be, which is a Nintendo fighting game (Even casual play like Basic Brawl mk is Supremely broken because of his infinite cape and the ability to plank and can scrooge on many stages like Sky World. So don't give me that excuse that Nintendo was supossed to be a party game because mk can severly break that too into mk battles).

You didn't read my previous post at all did you?

1. MK doesn't to this day win every tourny including Apex which is supposed to host the best players in the world. Last Apex, Falco won. A more recent tourny Wario won. There goes your argument that he's always on top.
2. Regarding all attempts at beating him have failed and that he's 5X better than everyone else. Refer to point 1 again. If he was truly 5X better or even close in every tourny at least the top 10 would be all MKs.
3. I explain arguably two of MKs biggest weaknesses in high level play. Please actually read my first post.
4. Follow your own advice and look at tourny winnings. Clearly you haven't bothered or you wouldn't say he's always on top.

This game is all about adapting and those that are too lazy to adapt and won't change their playstyles blame MK for losing when it's often their own fault. Yes MK is the best character in the game. But he's not so good that he needs to be banned. The top tourny results is enough evidence of this.