"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Ray_Kalm]

I say 7/3 or 65/35 Snake.

He's easier to punish than G&W when he whiffs, and he actually can be edgeguarded. Still a horrible matchup regardless.

Flame Choking is good if he grenade camps, since it basically ignores his grenades for most practical purposes. Wizkicking also goes over his grenades (although of course it's unsafe on block). Don't Flame Choke into his C4 like an idiot of course.

Snakes could dodge, you know? Gerudo should always be avoided by Snake, unless he's in really thick lag. Wizkick does go over grenades, but by the time it does, the grenades will most likely explode on you, and Snake could just PS punish on reaction.

Fight a good Snake.

 

[Ijosh]

i wud say this matchup is like 85:15. All snake has to really do in this matchup is nade spam properly and wait for ganons aproach so as to catch him with grabs or tilts.
@zigma. ganon does do well with platforms, but snake c4, mines and grenades work well on platform stages as well still making it hard for ganon to do much. his upsmash is probably the only thing that is nerfed on multi-platform stages. also i think lag screws snake over more than ganon in this matchup but thats just my opinion, but these matchups are most likely based on offline matches

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Kalm, you're being completely illogical.

I'm pointing out facts and data that show you what is possible.

Average reaction time is around 12-13 frames, or even faster for good players. It takes 13 frames for DK to do a SHB-air.

He's only guaranteed to be safe if he spaces it at maximum range and retreating basically.

In short, the only problem remaining is that we need a competent player who understands that this is possible.

Ganon can't DA Donkey Kong's BAir out of his shield, and especially not every single time.

To me, it looks like you're the one being completely illogical. If you really want to base everything off of facts, and facts alone, you should get the actual complete hardcore data of everything that would happen when a character attacks another character's shield. That includes, the move that hits the shielding character; it's ending lag, the move that's being attacked out of shield; it's start-up and ending lag, the amount of time it takes to react after the 7 frame shield drop, 'how' spaced the move on shield is, the shield push back, the amount of time it takes for the move of the character who's attacking out of shield to make contact with it's opponent, the shield's size, the move's properties, and so forth.http://javascript<b></b>: leoHighlightsIFrameClose();

 

[Clai]

Lol. if there are no platforms, 'Ganon Vs any projectile abusing character in the game', the match is like 0:100 that character's favor.

Seriously. Ban Final Destination against camping characters. That stage is just miserable for Ganon.

Thankfully, Final Destination is the only place that has no platforms, and we can just stage-strike it every time.

Since I completely disagree with the whole "lol if the other character has a quick jab and a projectile it's 30-70" ratio business, I won't bother with numbers. All I have to say about this matchup is in order to have a chance in this matchup, you have to manage his items almost as well as Snake can. It's a tall order, obviously, but with Ganon's size, you absolutely cannot afford to have damage rolled up on you because of Snake's grenades. Ganon's damage output with his D-tilt and juggling skills almost matches Snake's damage output with his tilts alone (because Snake can't use his aerials offensively), so if you can limit the damage given to you to only Snake's tilts, you're in good shape.

Ganon obviously wins offstage since Snake doesn't have an effective way to gimp anyone except with an easy to see/dodge B-air, not to mention Snake can't do anything out of Ganon's up+B. It's hard to tell which move to kill Snake with, though, because most of Ganon's move won't be able to kill him early stale. In any case, keep one move fresh and use it only to kill, and it's not like Ganon doesn't have a plethora of kill moves in his disposal.

This is a bad matchup for Ganon, no doubt, but it's a matchup that will be based on wits rather than hoping that the other character doesn't abuse any of Ganon's stupidly bad properties like most characters in this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lol. if there are no platforms, 'Ganon Vs any projectile abusing character in the game', the match is like 0:100 that character's favor.

Depends on which character it is. If it's someone like Luigi, Lucas, or Ness who have easy to powershield projectiles, it doesn't matter as much.

Yeah Kalm, as I've been saying for quite some time, spotdodging on reaction screws Ganondorf. That isn't really a surprise, but if he's just grenade shielding, it's usually worthwhile to try to go for the grab. He usually doesn't want to drop his shield at that point.

You can still more viably Flame Choke Snake out of lag than you can vs MK or G&W since he's less mobile and actually has existent ending lag. And that makes a huge difference, since getting the kill with Ganondorf starts with gaining momentum. Flame Choke to Jab, despite its relatively small damage, is still very useful for getting him offstage.

And of course he wins like 7/3. Not really because he's untouchable. He just punishes Ganondorf easily.

 

[Clai]

Depends on which character it is. If it's someone like Luigi, Lucas, or Ness who have easy to powershield projectiles, it doesn't matter as much.

That's why I said 'projectile abusing.' Characters like Luigi and Ness who have easily avoidable projectiles would not be using those projectiles as much simply because they [the projectiles] aren't that good.

Snake, on the other hand, is going to be using lots and lots of projectiles.

 

[Superspright]

Sir, I feel you haven't emphasized it enough. I believe he will use a lot of projectiles--an obscenely high amount of projectiles and timed and remote hitboxes--that can kill.

Yeah, the matchup is probably not even close to in our favor. But, Ganon has a few things on snake. They are both extremely slow and heavy--both can kill early, but I think Ganon has more ko options.

Snake's D-throw techchase is going to be a little harder considering that Ganon has an amazing getup, and his rolls are very long--especially away. So, D-throw techchase will be a little harder. Ganon has a gauranteed pimp slap from a gerudo--easy way to get him off the ledge. If he starts his cypher near ganon, ganon can steal it with his aerudo and get his jumps back. So, gimping snake is actually extremely safe if you can time it well. Plus, stomp, uair gimps, etc. Wind kills mines. Duh. The matchup is still heavily in snake's favor, because once Ganon is off the ledge, I find it hard to believe that a good snake would ever let him back. And that's where the game really matters. Ganon should never recover. Snake can always recover extremely high [beware of FoG though if someone is proficient]. Or just C4 tech recover. Snake has too many options and Ganon is always going to be a buffed up captain falcon with bigger hitboxes.

I'd say uh...Snake's favor. Not giving it a number, because it's pointless. In theory snake should just win--period. if the crème de la crème of Snake and Ganon faced off. Snake would probably win by 1-2 stocks every time. It's not like Ganon can't kill snake. He definitely can. But only through serious ****ing errors is a Snake ever going to lose to Ganon, or a Ganon ever win. Teh end.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Sir, I feel you haven't emphasized it enough. I believe he will use a lot of projectiles--an obscenely high amount of projectiles and timed and remote hitboxes--that can kill.

Snake's D-throw techchase is going to be a little harder considering that Ganon has an amazing getup, and his rolls are very long--especially away. So, D-throw techchase will be a little harder. Ganon has a gauranteed pimp slap from a gerudo--easy way to get him off the ledge. If he starts his cypher near ganon, ganon can steal it with his aerudo and get his jumps back. So, gimping snake is actually extremely safe if you can time it well. Plus, stomp, uair gimps, etc. Wind kills mines. Duh. The matchup is still heavily in snake's favor, because once Ganon is off the ledge, I find it hard to believe that a good snake would ever let him back. And that's where the game really matters. Ganon should never recover. Snake can always recover extremely high [beware of FoG though if someone is proficient]. Or just C4 tech recover. Snake has too many options and Ganon is always going to be a buffed up captain falcon with bigger hitboxes.

I'd say uh...Snake's favor. Not giving it a number, because it's pointless. In theory snake should just win--period. if the crème de la crème of Snake and Ganon faced off. Snake would probably win by 1-2 stocks every time. It's not like Ganon can't kill snake. He definitely can. But only through serious ****ing errors is a Snake ever going to lose to Ganon, or a Ganon ever win. Teh end.

Yeah, the matchup is probably not even close to in our favor. But, Ganon has a few things on snake. They are both extremely slow and heavy--both can kill early, but I think Ganon has more ko options.

Snake has BETTER KO options. And for the record, Ganon's slower than Snake.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake's U-tilt also has more KO power than Ganon's U-smash. And is twice as disjointed. and has less than a third of the startup. Yeah. Tell me the logic behind that.

Either way, the idea behind this matchup is pretty simple...Flame Choke him when he whiffs, and get him offstage.

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7898801#post7898801
Lucario boards are discussing how amazing Ganondorf is.
Intelligent input is appreciated.

 

[napZzz]

so a guy left a link in the snake boards to this.

Snake vs. Ganon is easily like 75/25 but I wouldn't put it higher than that. Snake can ruin every approaching option ganon comes with if he's spacing correctly and camps him hard. The only way I can see ganon even taking a stock off a good snake is if he gets a gimp somehow.

And yes, I play a really good ganon alot so I know what I'm saying. I'm pretty sure I can usually 3 stock him in a snake vs. ganon match but it can go pretty even otherwise. lol.

 

[stRIP]

btw Kalm.

cant you remove Gleam from the Panelist and give me his place?

i beg you Kalm. such an important thread (and your "panelist") like this shouldnt be desided by sympathy for users.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

btw Kalm.

cant you remove Gleam from the Panelist and give me his place?

i beg you Kalm. such an important thread (and your "panelist") like this shouldnt be desided by sympathy for users.

That's not important anymore. No one cares.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231077

The Link boards want to talk about the dark lord and king of all evil.
Feel free to stop by and give some MU talk.

 

[Superspright]

Snake has BETTER KO options. And for the record, Ganon's slower than Snake.

Better is subjective really--Snake has more FLEXIBILITY in his KO options, but Ganon can kill him just as early.

And yes, Snake is much faster than Ganon on the startup of a lot of his moves, but he's still pretty slow. Ganon is a punisher. Snake is a punisher. It's a really bad matchup when one is the better punisher than the other.

 

[DLA]

Better is subjective really--Snake has more FLEXIBILITY in his KO options, but Ganon can kill him just as early.

And yes, Snake is much faster than Ganon on the startup of a lot of his moves, but he's still pretty slow. Ganon is a punisher. Snake is a punisher. It's a really bad matchup when one is the better punisher than the other.

It's not the fact that Ganon's worse at punishing that makes this a bad matchup. It's Snake's plethora of camping options and his tilts.

Alright, imagine this. You're fighting Snake on FD. You're on the left facing him, and he's on the right facing you. Alright so picture this, he pulls out a grenade, drops it, and rolls backwards. Then he throws another grenade at you from near the edge. Now you've got 2 grenades, and likely a C4, between you and Snake. If you do manage to transverse all of the explosives, you're likely to catch a tilt to the face anyway, then he'll mortarslide away and repeat.

There are a lotttt of good Snakes in IL, and they all camp the hell out of me. There's really nothing we can do about it. 90:10 Snake's favor, IMO

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Alright, imagine this. You're fighting Snake on FD. You're on the left facing him, and he's on the right facing you. Alright so picture this, he pulls out a grenade, drops it, and rolls backwards. Then he throws another grenade at you from near the edge. Now you've got 2 grenades, and likely a C4, between you and Snake. If you do manage to transverse all of the explosives, you're likely to catch a tilt to the face anyway, then he'll mortarslide away and repeat.

Not to mention, what it takes Ganon to reach Snake at mid-range, it takes Falcon to cross the whole stage.

 

[Ken Neth]

I'm too lazy to read the earlier posts, but here's my opinion.

Gannon vs snake is really not that bad of a matchup. I'd say it's around 60:40 in snake's favor.

I've been playing as gannon a TON recently. And snake is probably my favorite person to play against. I've won a lot of money off gannon vs snake MMs (including vs snake mains) cause people think snake should **** the worst character in the game lol.

Oh, and learn to instant throw grenades. It stops grenade camping, unless they can cook it perfectly.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I'm too lazy to read the earlier posts, but here's my opinion.

Gannon vs snake is really not that bad of a matchup. I'd say it's around 60:40 in snake's favor.

I've been playing as gannon a TON recently. And snake is probably my favorite person to play against. I've won a lot of money off gannon vs snake MMs (including vs snake mains) cause people think snake should **** the worst character in the game lol.

Oh, and learn to instant throw grenades. It stops grenade camping, unless they can cook it perfectly.

http://www.gannon-banned.com/

GANNON-BANNED!!!

 

[PK-ow!]

I'm too lazy to read the earlier posts, but here's my opinion.

Gannon vs snake is really not that bad of a matchup. I'd say it's around 60:40 in snake's favor.

I've been playing as gannon a TON recently. And snake is probably my favorite person to play against. I've won a lot of money off gannon vs snake MMs (including vs snake mains) cause people think snake should **** the worst character in the game lol.

Tch, yeah, maybe that works for you. You're a Snake, so surrounding Snakes are probably weaker than you and thus you can see through them.

I'm local to Ally.


...

'nuff said.



@DLA: I think that if the Snake does that, you should stop (nearing), avoid the second grenade, and then just try to guess between the Mortar Slide, or the Snake sitting in place, which is to say staying closer to the edge than before.
At the edge, he can only pull that rolling trick so far; then you have to get to where you can Choke him out of any further grenade bunk.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Moving on, G&W.

 

[stRIP]

lol bair

80:20 in GaWs favor

thats all what i have to say

 

[smashkng]

lol bair

80:20 in GaWs favor

thats all what i have to say

You can SDI out of it though. And how is he going to finish you with that move? It's still not a KO move, so Ganon should be able to hit (if he doesn't want to camp). Choke ***** him because of his very slow get up attack and rolls.

But it can be 20/80 if he plays gay and camps. If he doesn't camp it's much easier. Like most Ganon matchups.

 

[Clai]

Alright, imagine this. You're fighting Snake on FD. You're on the left facing him, and he's on the right facing you. Alright so picture this, he pulls out a grenade, drops it, and rolls backwards. Then he throws another grenade at you from near the edge. Now you've got 2 grenades, and likely a C4, between you and Snake. If you do manage to transverse all of the explosives, you're likely to catch a tilt to the face anyway, then he'll mortarslide away and repeat.

There are a lotttt of good Snakes in IL, and they all camp the hell out of me. There's really nothing we can do about it. 90:10 Snake's favor, IMO

This scenario is not plausible, since no Ganon in their right mind should ever fight a Snake in Final Destination.

Now for the G&W matchup- when we advance enough to the point where we can actually have advantages on other characters, G&W will likely be one of the first. Outside of G&W's smashes, which are usually telegraphed and thus avoided, we simply beat all of G&W's options:

- Our F-tilt and Dash Attack trades hits with all of his aerials, and since a good number of his aerials are multi-hit attacks, the damage traded is in our favor.

-Our D-tilt outspaces his D-tilt, and our Up-air outspaces every aerial but the turtle, I think, so in a spacing war, we should come out on top.

-We have all of our options out of Flame Choke- D-tilt to rack up early damage, and F-tilt/iDA to finish him off.

-G&W's D-throw is all about listening. He will beep four times and then throw you; tech on the fourth beep. This part is absolutely vital since if you don't tech it, he can Up-smash you and kill you needlessly early.

- The turtle is incredibly lol, but not for reasons you'd think. More often than not, you'll have to worry about the short-hop turtle, since the hit upon landing can shield poke. However, Ganon can beat short-hop turtle all the time:

SDI up -> Aerial Wizkick right afterward

Seriously, as long as G&W has landing lag, he can't do a single thing against it, and 15% damage is big on an opponent we can kill at 90%. Full-hop turtles are harder to punish, but they can't shield-poke, and we can shield-grab him if he's close enough to us.

-Thunderstorming is not a good idea, but with our N-air and U-air used for spacing, Thunderstorms are a great punisher and kills very early.

Use all of this at your disposal and we could very well have the advantage here. Being able to punish G&W's best spacing move on hit is huge for us here.

 

[Darky-Sama]

It's Game and Watch.

He has a back air that out ranges and eats through most defensive play styles and smash attacks with kill potential not far from Ganon's own. In all honesty, this match-up really depends if they want to underestimate and Ganon and not spam their back air and smashes like they SHOULD be doing if they want to win. Anything else, Ganondorf shouldn't have too much of a problem getting around if he shields and punishes accordingly.

Luckily, G&W is a lighter character. It shouldn't be too hard KOing him if you're able to get a smash attack in on him. Bucket Braking can be a problem though, so... taking him to a stage like Final Destination probably wouldn't be the smartest idea. Racking up damage on Game and Watch shouldn't be too difficult either. You can buffer a down tilt or jab on G&W after a Murderchoke [IIRC], so that will offer around 15-20% per standing.

20:80, G&W at best, though.
Maybe 25:75, possibly if you take him to a stage like Battlefield.
Certainly no higher than that.

 

[stRIP]

You can SDI out of it though. And how is he going to finish you with that move? It's still not a KO move, so Ganon should be able to hit (if he doesn't want to camp). Choke ***** him because of his very slow get up attack and rolls.

But it can be 20/80 if he plays gay and camps. If he doesn't camp it's much easier. Like most Ganon matchups.

sry about that, but it just was a TL;DR version.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've played this matchup more than probably anyone here. On both ends no less.

Any G&W that learns how to space and zone will destroy Ganondorf.

He's also pretty much the best character in the game at gimping Ganondorf. One weak F-air offstage = gimp. Ganondorf is a very big target, so spamming fullhopped F-airs works very well for G&W in this matchup since the goal is mainly to get Ganondorf offstage.

In theory, Ganondorf can outspace G&W, but considering G&W's superior mobility and fast pokes (like D-tilt, which pretty much kills all of Ganondorf's approaches), this isn't very easy to do at all if he keeps mixing up.

All Ganondorf can do in this matchup is run away and bait him into making a spacing mistake. You can do this occasionally by punishing him with D-tilt, F-air/B-air, and F-smash.

His Smashes are both nearly impossible to punish, and very easy to land in this matchup too. If Ganondorf is at the edge, what G&W can do if Ganon is under 100% is charge D-smash near the edge. If spaced and timed right, this will counter ALL of his getups. Including the under 100% ledge attack.

I should also point out, this is Koskinator's least favorite matchup.

7/3 G&W at minimum.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Zelda's up next.

 

[TP]

Ganon vs Zelda is the least important matchup in the game. It is the one matchup that will never happen. Who cares?

 

[stRIP]

Ganon vs Zelda is the least important matchup in the game. It is the one matchup that will never happen. Who cares?

link

10links

 

[PhantomX]

Ganon vs Zelda is the least important matchup in the game. It is the one matchup that will never happen. Who cares?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSQsrbXMMFI

This was tournament.

 

[TP]

Well I'll be.

 

[sniperworm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSQsrbXMMFI

This was tournament.

lol, I was there for that. Ganon should've won because, he's Ganon, he always captures Zelda.

Anyway, short version is don't get juggled by Usmash, don't get hit by Dsmash near the edge at high percents, watch out for strong aerials, Dtilt lock, blah blah blah. Zelda's pretty simple, I'm sure you guys can figure it out.

The real move to watch out for is obviously DownB...

 

[Darkmusician]

Zelda vs Ganon?

Ganon's got this.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Realistically, most people would probably go Sheik for this, but Zelda still does pretty well against Ganondorf nonetheless.

Ganondorf happens to be one of the few characters that Zelda can force an approach on. Against Zelda, this is really bad, because she actually has a really good defensive game, and when she isn't forced to go offensive she can make herself hard to hit, especially against someone as slow as Ganondorf.

Attacking from above is not recommended, since USmash can go through basically anythin you have, and IIRC Ganondorf can't SDI out of it (or at least not very easily). In addition, since Ganondorf is pretty big, she has an easier time landing lightning kicks on him, which is obviously not good at all.

At around 50%+, she might try to DTilt lock you. If she does this, make sure to SDI away to escape earlier. Gerudo tech chasing doesn't really work due to how far she rolls; you're better off going straight for a DTilt for some quick damage.

Although you won't be landing too many hits if she plays it right, the hits that you do land hurt her much more, because she doesn't survive nearly as long. Also, if she ends up off-stage, her FW has a lot of start-up, so you can often Dair her before the invincibility frames start up. Try and get her above you when you can; she's very vulnerable from above since her Dair is slow and needs to be sweetspotted to have any real strength. However, you're even more vulnerable from above, since she's very good at juggling, so both of them are in the same boat.

All in all, I think that 35:65 Zelda's favour sounds about right.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Alright, looks like no one's interested in this match-up. We're moving on to Sheik.

 

[Superspright]

Shiek wins. Period. There is nothing we can do about the chain really aside from inhuman timing or failure of their chain--then the ftilt lock into whatever. Needles gimp us like it's their job.

It's an impossible matchup. I don't know the point of discussing it. In every department shiek beats Ganny. Off stage her game is better. Her recovery is better. Her on the stage game is better. Her airgame is better. Her camping game is amazing against Ganny since he can pretty much NEVER catch her if she needle camps him [for the super safe approach].

It's just not worth discussing I think. I have beaten a shiek or two before, but they never played as cheaply as they probably could have, or I got lucky.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay, let's see how quickly I can sum up this matchup.

F-tilt juggles to 80%. Tons of attacks that duck under Ganondorf's shieldgrab. An unpunishable Jab, a gay D-smash, Needle camping, a F-air that gimps. Yeah, this is Ganondorf's 2nd worst matchup by far.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Besides all of our usual advantages I want to add this one thing:

Needle some point in the match + chain
Then when he is at 200% we can use almost anything to kill.

He has absolutely nothing that can get through the chain. Not even an angled Wizkick.
After you die we can just wait for you to lose your invincibility frames and pull out a chain.
Getting in a chain= an easy 30-40%.

Because of this I either say 5 - 95 or 0 -100


It's sad T-T
I loved Melee Ganon and still like Brawl Ganon, but he just has to many things crippling him.
I feel sorry for you Ganon mains.... and respect you.

 

[ddonaldo]

yh tbh if sheik is playing to win there isnt anything ganon can do about it
Best you can do is pick a stage like pirate ship so you get gimped less