"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Ray_Kalm]

Punish it out of shield. You can reliably U-air, B-air, Jab, or N-air out of shield to punish it. The move itself has a -20 advantage in the air, meaning there's about 27 frames between SH double B-airs.

Mentioning B-air, of course, you want to spam this move against him here since it's safe on block (lol -7 frame advantage on autocancel).

You probably think this match-up's a neutral.

 

[Z1GMA]

Punish it out of shield.

Are you sure we can reach him if he space it perfectly?

If anything, I'm thinking BDC-Uair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You probably think this match-up's a neutral.

I really dunno, I think the matchup is 6/4 DK.

It's kinda bad, but then again it's not like....ridiculously horrible.

Are you sure we can reach him if he space it perfectly?

How often do you expect to let him space it perfectly? Ganondorf also has good range. And besides, DA out of shield can reach anything.

If anything, I find his Down-B harder to work around when used intelligently. THAT move has range. I'm talking about range comparable to Ganondorf's U-tilt (U-tilt I think has VERY slightly more range...just random fact that only applies on like PS1)

 

[Clai]

How often do you expect to let him space it perfectly? Ganondorf also has good range. And besides, DA out of shield can reach anything.

Considering that Ganon is the slowest-moving character horizontally in the game (only Jigglypuff runs slower than Ganon but Jigglypuff has great horizontal speed in the air), not to mention Ganon has terrible out-of-shield options, I'd say it's pretty easy for any character to space his/her/its way against Ganon and he can't do much of anything against it. Thankfully not many characters can outrange Ganon, but DK's B-air is something that gives me fits.

Concerning DK's down+B, there's not going to be much opportunity to use it on Ganon. It has considerable start-up time and leaves it open enough for Ganon to f-air DK in the face if he's somehow above DK while it's pounding the ground. It's not really a move worth using when you have other ways to outspace Ganon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Considering that Ganon is the slowest-moving character horizontally in the game (only Jigglypuff runs slower than Ganon but Jigglypuff has great horizontal speed in the air), not to mention Ganon has terrible out-of-shield options, I'd say it's pretty easy for any character to space his/her/its way against Ganon and he can't do much of anything against it. Thankfully not many characters can outrange Ganon, but DK's B-air is something that gives me fits.

Ganondorf has GREAT out of shield options. He just has a ****ing terrible shieldgrab and his N-air/B-air/U-air all don't hit low enough against short characters.

You're kinda overstating Ganon's low mobility at any rate.

Concerning DK's down+B, there's not going to be much opportunity to use it on Ganon. It has considerable start-up time and leaves it open enough for Ganon to f-air DK in the face if he's somehow above DK while it's pounding the ground. It's not really a move worth using when you have other ways to outspace Ganon.

His Down-B has more range than your F-air though, and besides, you kinda don't want to be whiffing that against him. Also, the way you WANT to play against DK, you're going to be shielding much of his stuff, so if he knows mixups, he'll just down-B, and it's kinda retardedly safe on your shield.

 

[Clai]

Ganondorf has GREAT out of shield options. He just has a ****ing terrible shieldgrab and his N-air/B-air/U-air all don't hit low enough against short characters.

You're kinda overstating Ganon's low mobility at any rate.

Maneuverability is huge when it comes to spacing, since any character can just run or jump away after hitting Ganon's shield and just space better (or they can just shield whatever attack Ganon throws at them, since the best Ganon can do without him being stupidly close to them is a 9-frame jab).

His Down-B has more range than your F-air though, and besides, you kinda don't want to be whiffing that against him. Also, the way you WANT to play against DK, you're going to be shielding much of his stuff, so if he knows mixups, he'll just down-B, and it's kinda retardedly safe on your shield.

That's why I said "if Ganon somehow manages to get above DK," like if Ganon jumps right as DK is starting the Ground Pound. The point was that DK doesn't want to be using that move if Ganon has any chance of moving away from the hitbox without getting hit first. DK doesn't want to whiff anything against Ganon either.

Furthermore, I don't understand how Ganon wants to be shielding anything that isn't a projectile. The way I see it, the more a Ganon shields, the more likely that the opponent is going to get inside Ganon and just completely wreck him. Ganon can do fine against DK by throwing out aerials and keeping mind of one's space, but shielding is just asking to get *****, in my opinion.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganondorf has GREAT out of shield options.

You must be kidding me.

 

[Ripple]

lol everytime I see a2zomg someone is discussing DK and the people who are known with being very good with the other character tell a2zomg that he is wrong in almost everyway

 

[@HomE]

lol everytime I see a2zomg someone is discussing DK and the people who are know with being very good with the other character tell a2zomg that he is wrong in almost everyway

FAIL

10fails

 

[Big O]

I main DK and my second most played character is Ganon. I think the MU is 6:4 or 65:35 in DK's favor. Ganon's Fair is really good in this fight because DK's shield is pretty bad and for some reason it shield pokes most of the time if it isn't full. The fight is very winnable for Ganon but the only reason I think it may be 65:35 is because Ganon is very easy to edgeguard. If DK focuses on getting him offstage and gimping/spiking then it may very well be 65:35. Cargo Dthrow is super effective vs. Ganon. RCO means 9 punch, headbutt, or a slightly charged Fsmash too. DK's spot dodge is pretty laggy so spot dodging flame chokes isn't that great (Ganon might get Dsmashed if he started the flame choke from a distance though). Ganon's ground game is nothing compared to DK's so I would focus on using aerials with some Dtilts every now and then. Wizkick is fail and will only get you punished severely even if you hit him (until about 60%) since it is stupidly weak and DK is really heavy. Flame choke only has jab as a guaranteed followup which sucks for Ganon since DK is somewhat more easily flame choked than usual.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Alright.

As contrasted with, the case that there is some option Op which one character can choose such that, even if it is predicted, the other character has no answer. In that case, the match is truly 0:100.

Since Ganon actually can do something if he predicts everything - equivalently, there is no IC play which is without weakness - then this matchup is technically possible.

I propose such matchups be defined to be 99:1, just to distinguish them categorically from 100:0s. So, a 1:99 is a matchup known to be worse than 5:95 (i.e., data is lost in saying the matchup is as bad as even 5:95), but not 0:100, by the definition above (between adumbrodeus and myself).


I'm not in the camp that calls matchups probability values. They just don't seem to be about probability. To me at least, it seems they're rather a sort of qualitative descriptor masked in a numeric-looking form. I think people understand 7:3 as meaning the sort of 'bad disabilities, but some niche exploits' matchup that 7:3 is, not as an expression of any ratio of actual quantities you could point to.
I mean, the fact that it works out that matchups - across different fighters - which are felt to have a certain level of lopsidedness, can all be unified in each case under qualitative descriptors,

Spoiler

like "Uphill, but certain situations can be set-up -> exploited to put you in the advantage", or "don't make a mistake" or "overrepresent this one move and you'll tend to do better, but you have to think as hard as the opponent",

seems to be what could be a theorem of (some science of) competitive fighter gaming; and so, itself ought to make reasonable the system of definition I've just outlined.

While I agree in theory with what you're talking about, 99:1 means something distinct, not in terms of percentages as I said before, but in terms of difficulty, and it doesn't mean this.

On the other hand, 100:0 means something totally different , so it doesn't describe really describe what we want it to.



Long story short: Do it, but make it something different, something like "Almost impossible:Stupidly good".

I was going to respond personally to this, but I feel it'll make me a lot less angry if I just say to anyone who thinks 100-0 isn't possible that Ray Kalm and the other people know what they're talking about and you don't. Anyone who underexaggerates Ganon's matchups doesn't know how bad of a character Ganondorf really is, and this is coming from someone who had the upmost confidence in Ganondorf for over a year, thinking we'd be able to overcome the BS people say about us. The more we climb up the metagame, the more we realize how much Ganon is really just a terrible, useless character.

Look, I like my fine distinctions, I doubt I disagree with you guys in terms of net effects, it's just not possible from the technical sense.

99:1 doesn't describe it, but 100:0 doesn't either, and do we really wanna write "99.999999:0.000001" each time?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Than my I now introduce my new matchup ratio numbers, custom developed by Salty Industries for the Ganondorf boards (and a little Fox and DK action, but hey). Here they are, folks!

Yeah : right
You : wish
No : chance
Give : up
Im : possible
-50:150
Simply : wrong

And, of course, our signature product

Utter : ****

 

[adumbrodeus]

Than my I now introduce my new matchup ratio numbers, custom developed by Salty Industries for the Ganondorf boards (and a little Fox and DK action, but hey). Here they are, folks!

Yeah : right
You : wish
No : chance
Give : up
Im : possible
-50:150
Simply : wrong

And, of course, our signature product

Utter : ****

"Utter : ****" seems like a good one, let's use it to differentiate between almost impossible and truly impossible.

 

[Clai]

Look, I like my fine distinctions, I doubt I disagree with you guys in terms of net effects, it's just not possible from the technical sense.

99:1 doesn't describe it, but 100:0 doesn't either, and do we really wanna write "99.999999:0.000001" each time?

@Adumbrodeus: My statement was directed towards people who think that Ganon has no 0-100 matchups because they think that Ganon is too good to have a 0-100 matchup.

I wasn't talking about the technical effects, I was stating that Ganon is bad enough to have roughly '0-100' matchups, because the characters that do have these matchups (ICs and Olimar) are capable of shutting down Ganondorf in every feasible fashion where it makes it literally impossible for a Ganondorf player to beat an IC/Olimar player at the top level of play.

 

[TP]

LOL at Clai's incredibly ironic sig.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@Adumbrodeus: My statement was directed towards people who think that Ganon has no 0-100 matchups because they think that Ganon is too good to have a 0-100 matchup.

I wasn't talking about the technical effects, I was stating that Ganon is bad enough to have roughly '0-100' matchups, because the characters that do have these matchups (ICs and Olimar) are capable of shutting down Ganondorf in every feasible fashion where it makes it literally impossible so close to literally impossible that only a stupidly precise player like AdumbroDeus would even care to make the distinctionfor a Ganondorf player to beat an IC/Olimar player at the top level of play.

*fixed

Nah, I figured as much, I'm just too big on logical precision to let it go.

That's why I like using saltycracka's suggestion, "Utter : ****" for these match-ups.

 

[Berserker.]

Does Donkey Kong's recovery have lower priority than Ganondorf's stomp because if it does it's best to horizontally knock him back then Donkey Kong MIGHT be forced to do his great horizontal recovery then stomp him from the top 55:45 or 60:40 DK. But if Donkey Kong's up B is higher... 65:35 DK

 

[A2ZOMG]

You must be kidding me.

Not kidding at all.

Lots of 10 frame options that can kill is actually pretty awesome. The one thing Ganondorf sucks at doing is shieldgrabbing, and that's pretty much the only real reason he's bad. If his shieldgrab was good, he would be a decent character. Basically a lesser version of DDD or ROB that has more focus on KO moves.

Spacing against DK is not the way to go Clai. He outspaces you if you try to play that game, with random stuff like Up-angled F-tilt, and of course B-air. What you want to do is get in his range by dashing, shielding, and punishing. Of course once you're in range, spacing B-air on his shield is a very good strategy.

Also, Jab is frame 8, and seriously, D-tilt and DA out of shield are good. Look at some frame data and advantages on shield. You will notice that you can punish SO MUCH with just D-tilt and DA out of shield.

 

[SaltyKracka]

There's one problem with your assumption that Ganon has frame 10 moves out of shield.

He doesn't. Shieldlag and shield dropping both increase the startup time for those moves. Ooh, and not to mention the range issues that Ganon has. Just about any aerial from most characters, properly spaced, can't be punished before they have the time to spotdodge or just plain shield. Of course, assuming that they didn't just do some basic spacing and land outside the range of any punishment he could want in the first place.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's one problem with your assumption that Ganon has frame 10 moves out of shield.

He doesn't. Shieldlag and shield dropping both increase the startup time for those moves. Ooh, and not to mention the range issues that Ganon has. Just about any aerial from most characters, properly spaced, can't be punished before they have the time to spotdodge or just plain shield. Of course, assuming that they didn't just do some basic spacing and land outside the range of any punishment he could want in the first place.

Salty, I don't know what you're trying to get at.

Any move that starts up frame 10 or faster is quite useful out of shield in general.

Most shield advantages for various attacks are around -20 to -25. DA and D-tilt come out frame 17 out of shield, which is quite fast enough to punish the majority of those attacks.

Considering the massive range of those attacks, it's really not that hard to land those attacks out of shield.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Salty, I don't know what you're trying to get at.

Any move that starts up frame 10 or faster is quite useful out of shield in general.

Most shield advantages for various attacks are around -20 to -25. DA and D-tilt come out frame 17 out of shield, which is quite fast enough to punish the majority of those attacks.

Considering the massive range of those attacks, it's really not that hard to land those attacks out of shield.

Most attacks won't be used on a shielding character. Only the fast ones. And you're missing another factor as well. That of reaction times. This could all work fine and dandy, assuming three things. First, that you've got correct frame data. Second, that the opponent can't autocancel his moves to hit you right out of your punishment attempt (more than likely). Last, THAT HUMANS HAVE 0 FRAMES OF REACTION TIME. Kind of messes up your point.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most attacks won't be used on a shielding character. Only the fast ones. And you're missing another factor as well. That of reaction times. This could all work fine and dandy, assuming three things. First, that you've got correct frame data. Second, that the opponent can't autocancel his moves to hit you right out of your punishment attempt (more than likely). Last, THAT HUMANS HAVE 0 FRAMES OF REACTION TIME. Kind of messes up your point.

Average reaction time is around 12-13 frames, which is the time it takes for Donkey Kong to do a SH b-air. Assuming you were shielding a little bit in advance, and then he B-airs, you should be able to pretty feasibly punish it out of shield with proper buffering.

And regardless, the point is it is very possible to do what I just stated. Especially in high level play where reaction time gets as fast as 6 frames.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Again, assuming that your frame data is correct, and that the opponent doesn't just autocancel another aerial right into your punishment attempt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Again, assuming that your frame data is correct, and that the opponent doesn't just autocancel another aerial right into your punishment attempt.

I use frame data that is available on SWF. Big O has kindly provided accurate data on BOTH Donkey Kong and Ganondorf.

The underlined statement makes no logical sense. If you're talking about SH double B-airs, the lag time between B-airs is -26 by the way.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Wait a second, I just thought of something. Even assuming that a human can react as fast as 6 frames, the tenth frame of the attack will come out on at least frame 23. Now correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the 10th frame the one where the first, and only the first hitbox activates? In that case, dtilt might be unusable. And you're only going to be using dtilt for this anyways. Ftilt's range can't get anywhere near even a badly-spaced DK bair, due to shield pushback.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wait a second, I just thought of something. Even assuming that a human can react as fast as 6 frames, the tenth frame of the attack will come out on at least frame 23.

No, that's wrong. Assuming reaction time is 6 frames, you will already have reacted to DK's B-air by the time he started jumping. This gives you something like 11 free frames of time for your instincts to kick in, 7 for the startup of B-air, 4 for shieldstun.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the 10th frame the one where the first, and only the first hitbox activates? In that case, dtilt might be unusable. And you're only going to be using dtilt for this anyways. Ftilt's range can't get anywhere near even a badly-spaced DK bair, due to shield pushback.

I'm quite certain the entire length of D-tilt hits on frame 10, as it was not implied otherwise on our frame data thread.

 

[SaltyKracka]

No, that's wrong. Assuming reaction time is 6 frames, you will already have reacted to DK's B-air by the time he started jumping. This gives you something like 11 free frames of time for your instincts to kick in, 7 for the startup of B-air, 4 for shieldstun.

But what if it's an empty shorthop, or something like an aerial side-b, which is entirely possible. You're talking about prediction here, not reaction. And again assuming 6-frame reaction times, something I'm quite skeptical about.

I'm quite certain the entire length of D-tilt hits on frame 10, as it was not implied otherwise on our frame data thread.

I suppose so. I wonder, though, can dtilt OoS punish a perfectly-spaced DK bair? I know that DK's bair hitbox is about as large as dtilt is, and it does shield knockback as well. And even then, a DK can still move away from Ganon even in lag, perhaps invalidating this whole argument.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I suppose so. I wonder, though, can dtilt OoS punish a perfectly-spaced DK bair? I know that DK's bair hitbox is about as large as dtilt is, and it does shield knockback as well. And even then, a DK can still move away from Ganon even in lag, perhaps invalidating this whole argument.

Well there is still DA out of shield, which has even more range. =/

 

[SaltyKracka]

And it takes long enough to come out that it's entirely blockable or dodgeable.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@A2Zomg: I don't know where you're getting all that from. If you put together, the reaction time, properly spaced move, shield drop lag, shield push back, and the start-up lag of certain moves, Ganon WON'T be able to punish DK OoS (unless he does a really laggy move).

 

[A2ZOMG]

@A2Zomg: I don't know where you're getting all that from. If you put together, the reaction time, properly spaced move, shield drop lag, shield push back, and the start-up lag of certain moves, Ganon WON'T be able to punish DK OoS (unless he does a really laggy move).

Kalm, you're being completely illogical.

I'm pointing out facts and data that show you what is possible.

Average reaction time is around 12-13 frames, or even faster for good players. It takes 13 frames for DK to do a SHB-air.

He's only guaranteed to be safe if he spaces it at maximum range and retreating basically.

In short, the only problem remaining is that we need a competent player who understands that this is possible.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@A2: DA takes 10 frames to come out, but shouldn't hit the opponent till the attack actually makes contact with the opponent, obviously.

Anyways, we're moving on to Snake.

 

[stRIP]

Punishing with SideB is the key in this matchup, cuz nades are gonna explode if you are trying to do random aerials and dtilts. Grab hitboxes owns snake

Thats all what im going to say BECAUSE MY ENGLISH OBVIOUSLYYYYY SUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCKKKKKKKSSSSSSSSSS

 

[Ganonsburg]

Punishing with SideB is the key in this matchup, cuz nades are gonna explode if you are trying to do random aerials and dtilts. Grab hitboxes owns snake

Thats all what im going to say BECAUSE MY ENGLISH OBVIOUSLYYYYY SUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCKKKKKKKSSSSSSSSSS

I hardly notice mistakes in your English. It really isn't that bad.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah so basically, Flame Choke him out of ANY lag.

DA clanks with stuff, you can juggle him, Aerial Flame Choke edgeguarding shenanigans not to mention D-air shenanigans. Aerial wizkick beats Up-smash and Up-tilt.

Yeah so watch out if he starts being smart and doing walkaway -> F-tilt.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yeah so basically, Flame Choke him out of ANY lag.

DA clanks with stuff, you can juggle him, Aerial Flame Choke edgeguarding shenanigans not to mention D-air shenanigans. Aerial wizkick beats Up-smash and Up-tilt.

Yeah so watch out if he starts being smart and doing walkaway -> F-tilt.

Flame chokes might get interrupted by grenades, C4s (automatically), and bombs.

A good Snake will know how to abuse grenades and tilts against Ganon.

I'd say 10-90 Snake. Someone prove me otherwise.

 

[TP]

Once you are carrying RCO lag, a good Snake will make it VERY hard for you to get back onstage. Besides that, I find this matchup very fun. Hard, but fun.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Flame chokes might get interrupted by grenades, C4s (automatically), and bombs.

Flame Choking is good if he grenade camps, since it basically ignores his grenades for most practical purposes. Wizkicking also goes over his grenades (although of course it's unsafe on block). Don't Flame Choke into his C4 like an idiot of course.

I'd say 10-90 Snake. Someone prove me otherwise.

I say 7/3 or 65/35 Snake.

He's easier to punish than G&W when he whiffs, and he actually can be edgeguarded. Still a horrible matchup regardless.

 

[Z1GMA]

Lol. if there are no platforms, 'Ganon Vs Snake', the match is like 0:100 Snake's favor.

 

[PhantomX]

Side Bing to punish their grenades will maybe work once or twice. They can spotdodge when they pull them, and you have to be so far away to not get utterly ***** that they'll have time to react to it.

It's not 10:90 like Kalm says, because that's what Falco is , Snake is more like a 25:75 when they play uber campy. We still have quite a few shenanigans on him that are useful for gimping though.