"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[-Mars-]

Get a lead and then platform camp. Sheik really cant do much if you stay on the top platform on BF except chase you with aerials. Grab the ledge whenever she is trying to recover to force her to use vanish. I made a post on this matchup a whil back let me try to find it.

Just a few things that you guys might know and that you might not that you probably want to take a look at.

-I know Ganon players love to go offfstage and try for spikes and tipman spikes, but in the Sheik matchup it gets really simple.

All you need to do is grab the ledge. Every single time Sheik is trying to get back onto the stage grab the ledge and take away her option of using the tether. At first glance it looks like Sheiks recovery is pretty good, but if she is ever forced to use Vanish and she is forced to land on the stage it's a free ledge drop uair, fair, or if your quick enough a normal getup onto the stage into an dtilt, ftilt, or fsmash.

-Her ftilt is a beast in this matchup obviously. You all are aware of escaping it at early percentages with down DI and then getting up your shield. Experienced Sheik players will ftilt a couple of times at early percentages and then immediately go into a dsmash, jabs, or a grab. After you DI down and then get your shield up....immediately roll backwards.

At mid percentages it really is just a matter of not getting hit with her ftilt. If you are ever in a position where you are in your shield and Sheik is just ftilting away, full hop and then go from there......anything that Sheik can do to you in the air is nothing compared to what ftilt will do to you. Even on a powershield there is little you can do if the Sheik player buffers her ftilt correctly.

One thing i've found to be semi-reliable as i've played as Ganon in this matchup is to powershield, SH a bit out of range from her ftilt, and then catch her with an aerial Gerudo. This is extremely risky if the Sheik player happens to spotdodge it however....so only use it as a mixup every once in a while.

If you spotdodge an ftilt, do not attemp a jab or dtilt or any other possible close range option you have. Sheiks jab, ftilt, and utilt will outspeed anything in your moveset and you will find yourself in a deadly frame trap. Your best option would be to roll or jump away and reset your spacing.

In fact I would recommend spotdodging an awful lot in this matchup because her only real threat to beat a spotdodge on the ground would be her utilt. If you are facing an ftilt crazy Sheik.....spotdodging can be a life saver.

- Her grab game isn't amazing, but she is quick enough to make it seem that way at times. If your in the habit of immediately airdodging after being thrown, you will easily get hit by Sheiks nair or bair.

Probably her best and most used throw is going to be fthrow. Most average Sheik players will love to fthrow and immediately SH fair to try to knock you offstage. This is easily avoidable if you DI down and away on her fthrow. The better Sheik players, however, will fthrow and walk into a shield>utilt>ftilt on Ganon.........something you should be very aware of.

She does have some nasty tricks on Ganon out of a ground release since he is in perfect range for an ftilt or a dash grab. Once again if you ever suspect a grab release, a spotdodge is your best friend and then immediately get the hell out of there. I personally love to release to a needle storm and if it's shielded then I regrab.

- Dair is pretty useless against Sheik. Her utilt easily beats it and if you get hit with it your in for a lot of trouble because it leads directly into ftilt. You can't really use dair OoS either because Sheik has very few attacks that are laggy and Sheik doesn't really need them in the Ganon matchup(usmash, fsmash, dsmash).

You do not want to be close to Sheik. Dtilt is still punishable on block by Sheik...but at least your not getting hit with an ftilt.

I've found that ftilt is really good in the Sheik matchup because you can easily setup up for some edgeguards which is honestly one of the few things you have going for you in this matchup.

- A lot of Sheik users(myself included), will love to praise the chain and all of its glory. It is true that technically with perfect use Ganon can not do a **** thing.....but I found a small trick.

It is extremely hard for me to maintain chain coverage behind myself when protecting from the front and it takes a little while for me to transition behind me if my opponent lands behind the chain. Full hop over the chain, land behind Sheik, and when Sheik moves the chain behind quickly SH and wizkick onto the top of Sheik. This is really one of the only ways I have ever been able to sneak past the chain and its devilry.

Ya so those are just a few things that you guys might care about....let me know if any of it is useful. I have a few more tidbits but thats all I can think of right now.

 

[SuSa]

I actually want to see a match where chaincamping beat all of Ganon's options.....

PS:
I basically made this thread for Ganon/Falcon mains:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251001

 

[saviorslegacy]

k SuSa

Any Ganons wanna fight me on wi-fi?
Wi-fi is my only option. -_- sorry

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Edit: Nevermind this.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Get a lead and then platform camp. Sheik really cant do much if you stay on the top platform on BF except chase you with aerials. Grab the ledge whenever she is trying to recover to force her to use vanish. I made a post on this matchup a whil back let me try to find it.

lol, platform camping is the worse possible thing you can ever ever ever do against Sheik.
All you do is maximize her defensive and offensive options.
It would be easier for me to list the options she doesn't have.

d-tilt
jab
grab
f-tilt
Vanish

That is unless you get onto the platform.
If you shield you could set up a personal favorite combo, the reverse chain ground lock.

 

[choknater]

chain camping sucks

anyway

sheik vs ganon is 140:-40

i've been saying this since brawl came out

basically

this is how u play the match:

pull out the triforce of wisdom

and get off

<3

all u have to know are sheik basics really... just dont run into ganon's ftilts or jabs... and learn the spacing of ganon's dash attack. feel him out by rolling around and shooting needles and then you'll eventually learn the approaches. there are many and they're usually easy

 

[Superspright]

If Sheik studied the matchup and Ganon studied the matchup to the point they both knew what to do in every situation the Ganon would SD all 3 stocks, because outside of perfect prediction [or masterful knowledge of yomi] you are NOT going to beat Sheik.

You would need to predict nearly everything in order to get around her nigh unpunishable tilts, and then they would still need to make mistakes.

I imagine if someone had inhuman reflexes it would be possible to walk up and PS every single tilt and then grab through it, but I even doubt that.

 

[PK-ow!]

Shield DI.

It's the only thing.

How much shield stun, shield push, and shield damage does Chain have? If Ganon can shield di through it... he can maybe grab.


Also, what about doing an FoG Warlock Punch reversal, timing it to land just out of chain range, and then using the step forward to catch Sheik? Ganon takes a big step forward, the hitox comes out at the same frame afaik, and so the question is, how far out is Sheik's hurtbox?

Possibly, attacking Sheik's backside, since the chain is shorter from there (plus her leg is out in a crouch).


We have to find an answer to Chain or this match is literal 0-100. So I'm pulling out the stops.
Not like I don't usually look for new options. But if it's 0-100 on the paper right now, how is it logically possible for anyone to have a dumb idea at this point?


If the Sheik is camping under a platform, I would remind us that utilt's wind effect can pull Sheik over. Now, yes you will get hit before you kick her, but by doing this multiple times, if Sheik is determined to stay in Chain, you should be able to pull Sheik out from under any platform.
I would also hope that for each stage, any platform Sheik can hide under is 'beatable' with either this, or the Warlock Punch approach I just described.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The matchup isn't just unwinnable due to chaincamping. It's unwinnable because all of Sheik's stuff is stupidly impossible for Ganondorf to punish, and she combos and gimps him very easily.

Her Jab has good range and you can't punish it out of shield since your grab range sucks. Her DA can't be shieldgrabbed or Jabbed out of shield either. Her D-smash is ridiculously hard for Ganondorf to punish. F-tilt juggles can get you from like 20-90% extremely fast, and F-tilt can combo into U-smash, which can kill you pretty easily.

She also needle camps, so fundamentally you have to approach.

 

[smashkng]

The matchup isn't just unwinnable due to chaincamping. It's unwinnable because all of Sheik's stuff is stupidly impossible for Ganondorf to punish, and she combos and gimps him very easily.

Her Jab has good range and you can't punish it out of shield since your grab range sucks. Her DA can't be shieldgrabbed or Jabbed out of shield either. Her D-smash is ridiculously hard for Ganondorf to punish. F-tilt juggles can get you from like 20-90% extremely fast, and F-tilt can combo into U-smash, which can kill you pretty easily.

She also needle camps, so fundamentally you have to approach.

Spot dodge instead of shielding allows to punish Sheik?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Spot dodge instead of shielding allows to punish Sheik?

Ganon's spotdodge has more lag than an average one, that combined with slow out of spotdodge options would be somewhere around 20+ frame.

 

[Superspright]

Even SHADing does nothing if the shiek can pivot well enough to follow you with more ftilts.

This matchup is not meant to be won. If played perfectly it is absolutely lost from the beginning.

Only an exceptionally superhuman person could beat a shiek of professional level. They'd have to do everything so perfectly that they would literally have to make no mistakes.

Redundancy ftw.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Spot dodge instead of shielding allows to punish Sheik?

Ganondorf's spotdodge is horrible. Actually the spotdodge itself has average frame data, but the thing is he has virtually no options out of spotdodge since his grab range sucks, and everything else is too slow to be worthwhile.

You can try to spotdodge->grab, but that gets punished by Sheik's D-smash and Jab cancels, not to mention as I said, it's pretty likely to whiff since you don't have much grab range unless you pivot grab or dashgrab, which is slower.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Shield DI.

It's the only thing.

How much shield stun, shield push, and shield damage does Chain have? If Ganon can shield di through it... he can maybe grab.


Also, what about doing an FoG Warlock Punch reversal, timing it to land just out of chain range, and then using the step forward to catch Sheik? Ganon takes a big step forward, the hitox comes out at the same frame afaik, and so the question is, how far out is Sheik's hurtbox?

Possibly, attacking Sheik's backside, since the chain is shorter from there (plus her leg is out in a crouch).


We have to find an answer to Chain or this match is literal 0-100. So I'm pulling out the stops.
Not like I don't usually look for new options. But if it's 0-100 on the paper right now, how is it logically possible for anyone to have a dumb idea at this point?


If the Sheik is camping under a platform, I would remind us that utilt's wind effect can pull Sheik over. Now, yes you will get hit before you kick her, but by doing this multiple times, if Sheik is determined to stay in Chain, you should be able to pull Sheik out from under any platform.
I would also hope that for each stage, any platform Sheik can hide under is 'beatable' with either this, or the Warlock Punch approach I just described.

There is NO answer for the Chain. We have enough range to knock meta knight out of Drill Rush when it is pointed right at us.
On paper we can chain camp Meta Knight. However, it is really hard to do so and the Meta Knights use that excuse to say that it will never work.

BTW, the chain attacks every 2 frames, has 3 frames of hit stun and 3-4 frames of shield stun.
Shielding a Chain is what idiots do. We can bust it and then you get to eat maybe 80% in a reverse Chain Lock (locking you backwards and causing you to push into Sheik). It ends when you get enough damage to get knocked through us, when we mess it up or when you run out of stage (BTW, heavies get locked longer).

"Why don't Sheik's use this?"
A: Because they either think it's gay or they aren't dedicated enough to be able to attack ever 2 frames with an analog movement.
Tristan and I however can legitimately have the chain lock down.
So don't be worrying about every Sheik you meet locking you. (hint to all of you stupid Sheiks out there)
However, on paper this match up is 0 - 100 since all we need is one Needle to put us ahead in percentage and then pull out a Chain 3 times.

IMO, the hardest thing to counter is a Wizkick in the air. You might get lucky and the Sheik wont get you in time.

Ganon's spotdodge has more lag than an average one, that combined with slow out of spotdodge options would be somewhere around 20+ frame.

Wow, that is a new level of gay.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Does anyone mind me changing this match-up to 100-0? There really isn't anything Ganon can do, hell, even if we predict every of Sheik's move, we're not hitting her.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It isn't Ganondorf's worst matchup since you'll probably land a random D-tilt, and she can be edgeguarded, so obviously there has to be a discrepancy between Sheik and the Ice Climbers (who you really can't edgeguard if they are together, not to mention THEY actually 0-death).

And this guy is honestly not bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XesIFZdO1Sc

 

[Ray_Kalm]

It isn't Ganondorf's worst matchup since you'll probably land a random D-tilt, and she can be edgeguarded, so obviously there has to be a discrepancy between Sheik and the Ice Climbers (who you really can't edgeguard if they are together, not to mention THEY actually 0-death).

And this guy is honestly not bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XesIFZdO1Sc

Not bad =/= top of the metagame.

At the top of the metagame, players would make barely any mistakes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

InsomniaK was on the power rankings in my state keep in mind.

 

[TheMike]

Both are big targets, which means that both can hit the other on without much difficult, especially ROB. His camping game is amazing, and he'll probably find no problems to do so <3

ROB can also do some good stuff off-stage(GIMPS!), well, but on the MU, ROB doesn't need to worry much about what he's going to do as Ganon doesn't have many options. He'll need to find a way to apprach and spam Dair and Side B like hell because, as i said before, ROB is a big target. On stages like Battlefield, Ganon's Side B is eally amazing as it puts ROB above the plattform giving Ganon chances to follow up(Uair/Usmash) racking up some good damage.

For kills, ROB can take Ganon off-stage, Edge Guard him well not allowing him to recover at all. For Ganon, i think that Ftilt and Usmash are some options, but nothing much important...


In short, this MU depends on stages, but i can that it's 70:30 for ROB. I'm not going to say 75:25 because of Ganon's ways to rack up damage sometimes even quickly(if he can get close to ROB earlier in the match).

So, for stages, ROB's best CP is Frigate. Gimps FTW. In terms of neutral, FD. For Ganon, i really can't think in another besides BF.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly I hate the fact that SideB puts ROB on BF platforms, because it eliminates the D-tilt and DA followup.

ROB's projectile camping is one of the easier ones for Ganon to work around on stage due to the relatively telegraphed nature of ROB's projectiles, but what is much harder to do is get past ROB's spotdodge game. shielding and spotdoding the flame choke on reaction works very well for ROB due to his numerous options out of spotdodge. On the other hand, it's probably worthwhile for Ganondorf to note that ROB's shield is terrible, and easily poked.

And then ROB is pretty good at punishing Ganondorf's ledge getups. F-tilt outranges the getup attack. F-air ***** the ledge jump. D-tilt ***** the standup. Grabbing ***** the ledge roll.

 

[TP]

ROB's best CP is Rainbow Cruise in this matchup by far. On RC, he just needs to wait for the part on the left and then attack every time Ganon jumps. I'm not even kidding.

Getting past ROB's Ftilt is a *****. You pretty much need to mindgame him every time you want to get inside. Once you are in, it is pretty much a game of rock-paper-scissors, where he keeps spotdodging, Dtilting, and Dsmashing, and you keep shielding, SH Uairing, and FH Dairing.

Both character can juggle each other very well.

If he grabs you, immediately start holding up, because his Fthrow and Bthrow are both very fast and you would want to DI either of them up.

I forget how wizkick and gyro interact. Can somebody test that?

 

[saviorslegacy]

That Sheik didn't play well IMO.
His entire game was completely off balanced and his focus was more of a get in close all of the time with jab that do not true combo into anything but grab.
Grab is also a poor choice unless you want to juggle in which he didn't.

The Sheik wasn't bad, he just didn't use the correct options.

 

[Superspright]

Yes, that is true Savior. If the Shiek doesn't know the matchup, or plays it poorly they CAN lose--if they play it to the fullest of all their options then it is an impossible mountain for Ganon to overcome.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm talking about a 5 point difference from the Ice Climbers. It doesn't take much of a brain to desynch Ice Blocks or spam Blizzard or Squall Hammer, all of which Ganondorf really can't work around, and then aside from the fact that the Ice Climbers when actually played by someone good will grab him and 0-death him. While Sheik actually needs to have something that resembles a brain to properly deal with Ganondorf.

As for Wizkick and Gyro, I'm pretty certain fully charged fresh Gyros beat it. And Gyros aimed at Ganon's head also win.

 

[Superspright]

Ehhh...True the desyncs make it an incredibly easy matchup for the ICS, but what can Ganon really do against the chain? I mean, that's even WORSE. It's just throw it up and wait.

 

[Tin Man]

Both are big targets, which means that both can hit the other on without much difficult, especially ROB. His camping game is amazing, and he'll probably find no problems to do so <3

ROB can also do some good stuff off-stage(GIMPS!), well, but on the MU, ROB doesn't need to worry much about what he's going to do as Ganon doesn't have many options. He'll need to find a way to apprach and spam Dair and Side B like hell because, as i said before, ROB is a big target. On stages like Battlefield, Ganon's Side B is eally amazing as it puts ROB above the plattform giving Ganon chances to follow up(Uair/Usmash) racking up some good damage.

For kills, ROB can take Ganon off-stage, EG him well not allowing him to recover at all. For Ganon, i think that Ftilt and Usmash are some options, but nothing much...


In short, this MU depends on stages, but i can that it's 70:30 for ROB. I'm not going to say 75:25 because of Ganon's ways to rack up damage sometimes even quickly(if he can get lose to ROB earlier in the match).

So, for stages, ROB's best CP is Frigate. Gimps FTW. In terms of neutral, FD. For Ganon, i really can't think in another besides BF.

He pretty much said it all, get in close and try your best guys

 

[adumbrodeus]

Does anyone mind me changing this match-up to 100-0? There really isn't anything Ganon can do, hell, even if we predict every of Sheik's move, we're not hitting her.

I do.

Proper ratio: Total-****


For match-ups between 99-1 and 100-0!

 

[TheMike]

Honestly I hate the fact that SideB puts ROB on BF platforms, because it eliminates the D-tilt and DA followup.

IMO it's good for Ganon as it puts ROB above him(and I prefer Uair/Usmash to Dtilt/DA, especially DA because it can be a KO move and Usmash isn't really easy to get), where he's really bad. Besides, Ganon also has some follow-ups at this situation, and I know it's difficult for Ganon to juggle ROB, but he needs to take advantage on every single momment on this MU.

 

[smashkng]

Please, no 100-0 matchups, it has no sense. Instead put 99-1 on the 100-0 matchups.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Please, no 100-0 matchups, it has no sense. Instead put 99-1 on the 100-0 matchups.

They're too bad for 99-1, but 100-0 isn't mathematically valid. We need something strictly defined for for those types of match-ups "total-****".

 

[TP]

They're too bad for 99-1, but 100-0 isn't mathematically valid. We need something strictly defined for for those types of match-ups "total-****".

Or you could put

 

[TheMike]

If both players are in the same level(top level, especially), I believe in 100:0 for Sheik. Ganon really has no options...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

If both players are in the same level(top level, especially), I believe in 100:0 for Sheik. Ganon really has no options...

Basically this. What does 99-1 defy? That Ganon has a very small chance to win?

 

[Darky-Sama]

I actually agree with Ray_Kalm on that one.
What is the 99:1 going to really change?

I don't believe any match-up can be 100:0.
But Sheik /v/ Ganon is so ridiculously pathetic.
5:95 at best considering the current meta game.

As for ROB, all the main facts were covered prior to my post.
That match-up seems about 30:70, IMO.

A professional ROB won't fall for many of a Ganon's tricks though, so 25:75 might be a bit better.

 

[TheMike]

As for ROB, all the main facts were covered prior to my post.
That match-up seems about 30:70, IMO.

A professional ROB won't fall for many of a Ganon's tricks though, so 25:75 might be a bit better.

The same goes here:

If both players are in the same level(top level, especially)

With this, ROB has more advantage on the Ganon MU. 75:25 sounds as the best option.

 

[TP]

I'd say 30:70 against ROB. It's a rough matchup due to Ftilt, but you really can take most of a stock from ROB after a single choke by reacting to their controller and the animations. Most Ganons just get too impatient during this matchup.

For the record, my ROB is as good as my Ganon and I have experience from both sides of the matchup, so I like to think that I know what I am talking about here.

 

[smashkng]

No matchup can be 100-0. You can't deny hitting if the rare tripping happens before Sheik getting the lead.

 

[Nanaki]

No matchup can be 100-0. You can't deny hitting if the rare tripping happens before Sheik getting the lead.

If you don't dash, you can't trip.

So yes, I can deny it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

No matchup can be 100-0. You can't deny hitting if the rare tripping happens before Sheik getting the lead.

Oh, okay then mister wiseguy, you seem to know alot. Let's say, a trip occurs in a match, what's the most Ganon can make of it? A hit? A stock?

 

[smashkng]

Can Ganon powershield the needles? And if you trip in front of Ganon can't Ganon punish with dtilt for 12% or even Choke with dtilt to 21%? And Sheik is pretty light, so she doesn't need to trip so much as other characters for killing her. 99-1, no 100-0 please. Replace all those matchups please.