"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Ray_Kalm]

Can Ganon powershield the needles? And if you trip in front of Ganon can't Ganon punish with dtilt for 12% or even Choke with dtilt to 21%?

Yes, but what's your point?

 

[weird_lion]

I pwned a lot of Ganondorfs with ZSS I don't know why everybody hates her besides the fact she IS lesbian

 

[smashkng]

If Ganon can powershield all needles she throws at him, why it's 100-0? Why would she chain stall without getting the lead first?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

If Ganon can powershield all needles she throws at him, why it's 100-0? Why would she chain stall without getting the lead first?

What exactly do you think that a 100-0 match-up is? An infinite with no way to get out?

 

[smashkng]

What exactly do you think that a 100-0 match-up is? An infinite with no way to get out?

It's a matchup where there is absolutely no way to hit the opponent, which is not completely impossible.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

It's a matchup where there is absolutely no way to hit the opponent, which is not completely impossible.

No, you're wrong. That is not how match-up ratios work.

 

[smashkng]

No, you're wrong. That is not how match-up ratios work.

If you can hit the opponent it's not 100-0, but it still can be 99-1. I do not believe any matchup of Brawl is completely unwinnable.

Like DDD/DK, no one calls it 100-0, but there are 99-1 ratios said about it.

 

[Nanaki]

You don't have to not be able to hit the opponent at all for a matchup to be 100-0. So what if Ganon gets a gerudo or a dash attack? Hell, even if he lands a Warlock Punch or something ridiculous, that's still probably not even a stock if it happens at 0%, and you have to get 3 stocks.

How in the world do you expect a top level Ganon to EVER get 3 stocks off of a top level Sheik?

Even if we assume you're right and 100-0 isn't possible, why does that make 99-1 possible? What the **** does the 1 signify? It's not a % chance of winning, and even if it was, 1 would be too big.

 

[TheMike]

About tripping, they are situational. IMO this shouldn't count when discussing MUs. And probably the title needs to be changed for the Sheik discussion...

 

[smashkng]

No matchup is 100-0. Maybe 99,999999-0,000001, but not "0% chance".

 

[TheMike]

No matchup is 100-0. Maybe 99,999999-0,000001, but not "0% chance".

As I said before, if both players are at the same level(especially the top level one), 100:0 Match-ups may happen.

 

[Nanaki]

Incredibly enough, you've said that already.

Check it out, I can do it too.

You don't have to not be able to hit the opponent at all for a matchup to be 100-0. So what if Ganon gets a gerudo or a dash attack? Hell, even if he lands a Warlock Punch or something ridiculous, that's still probably not even a stock if it happens at 0%, and you have to get 3 stocks.

How in the world do you expect a top level Ganon to EVER get 3 stocks off of a top level Sheik?

Even if we assume you're right and 100-0 isn't possible, why does that make 99-1 possible? What the **** does the 1 signify? It's not a % chance of winning, and even if it was, 1 would be too big.

How does 99.9999-0.0001 work? What does it mean?

If you don't answer my questions this time and just respond with the exact same post, I'm done trying to argue with you.

Edit: Directed at smashkng, not TheMike.

p.s. TheMike: it's not Swine Flu, it's H1N1 dude. Stop killing the pork industry.

 

[smashkng]

I also would like to know how is the matchup if Chain is considered stalling (because it's impossible to deal with it). 80-20 Sheik's favour. It still must suck.

 

[TheMike]

Incredibly enough, you've said that already.

Check it out, I can do it too.

You don't have to not be able to hit the opponent at all for a matchup to be 100-0. So what if Ganon gets a gerudo or a dash attack? Hell, even if he lands a Warlock Punch or something ridiculous, that's still probably not even a stock if it happens at 0%, and you have to get 3 stocks.

How in the world do you expect a top level Ganon to EVER get 3 stocks off of a top level Sheik?

Even if we assume you're right and 100-0 isn't possible, why does that make 99-1 possible? What the **** does the 1 signify? It's not a % chance of winning, and even if it was, 1 would be too big.

How does 99.9999-0.0001 work? What does it mean?

If you don't answer my questions this time and just respond with the exact same post, I'm done trying to argue with you.

This.

10thissssssssssssssssssss

p.s. TheMike: it's not Swine Flu, it's H1N1 dude. Stop killing the pork industry.

Swine Flu is what most of people say. But lol it doesn't matter...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

No matchup is 100-0. Maybe 99,999999-0,000001, but not "0% chance".

For god's sake, do you even read?

 

[Nanaki]

Yeah, I've had enough of that nonsense. Ignore list makes me

I think I'm going to hang around the Ganon boards some more. You guys are cool.

 

[@HomE]

OK... Match-up Ratios.....

corrrect me if im wrong but 90-10 means at the TOP of the meta game a person SHOULD win 90 out of 100 games.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH %'s!!!

its only the WIN.

even if Ganon had the shiek at 500% on the last stock EVERY game and still lost EVERY game, its 0- 100...

I dont really have much input about the actual Ganon/Shiek ratio, ill just say.. **** YOU SAKURAI!!

I hate to say it but Kalm is right.


At the TOP of the meta game a Ganon will ALWAYS loose to a Shiek, %'s dont matter, getting a couple hits doesn't matter, ONLY THE WIN..

That is all..

 

[adumbrodeus]

OK... Match-up Ratios.....

corrrect me if im wrong but 90-10 means at the TOP of the meta game a person SHOULD win 90 out of 100 games.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH %'s!!!

its only the WIN.

even if Ganon had the shiek at 500% on the last stock EVERY game and still lost EVERY game, its 0- 100...

I dont really have much input about the actual Ganon/Shiek ratio, ill just say.. **** YOU SAKURAI!!

I hate to say it but Kalm is right.


At the TOP of the meta game a Ganon will ALWAYS loose to a Shiek, %'s dont matter, getting a couple hits doesn't matter, ONLY THE WIN..

That is all..

There EXISTS the possibility that Ganondorf will read Sheik perfectly every time and win the match.


It's very very unlikely.


But enough for it to be "total-****", not "100-0".

 

[Ganonsburg]

There EXISTS the possibility that Ganondorf will read Sheik perfectly every time and win the match.


It's very very unlikely.


But enough for it to be "total-****", not "100-0".

But what if the Sheik read's the reading?

Or the Ganon reads the reading of the reading?

Sorry, it had to be said.

 

[Nanaki]

I have to ask then: if the ratios aren't actual % chances of winning, why does 100-0 have to not be the same as 'total ****'?

 

[adumbrodeus]

But what if the Sheik read's the reading?

Or the Ganon reads the reading of the reading?

Sorry, it had to be said.

That's what happens 99.9% of the time, remember?

I have to ask then: if the ratios aren't actual % chances of winning, why does 100-0 have to not be the same as 'total ****'?

Because 100-0 is when even when you read your opponent perfectly, it's still impossible to win at the top of the metagame.


Picture final Destination, you begin every stock grabbed by ICs. That, or it's equivalent is 100-0 where your opponent can win no matter what you input with just tech skill alone.

 

[YesNoMaybeSo]

0-100 exist people.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

There EXISTS the possibility that Ganondorf will read Sheik perfectly every time and win the match.

Let's say a Ganon is able to read Sheik's whole moveset. What's he gonna do then? Hope for his moves to actually make contact with Sheik?

 

[adumbrodeus]

0-100 exist people.

Only in fuzzy math and super turbo (akuma is a ****).

Let's say a Ganon is able to read Sheik's whole moveset. What's he gonna do then? Hope for his moves to actually make contact with Sheik?

No, if he reads the Sheik player perfectly, he can punish and beat the sheik perfectly he can beat out sheik's moves and win the match.


The skill gap has to be utterly immense, or the luck extreme, or both, but still, it's POSSIBLE.




I like precision, and 100-0 grates on my nerves... as much as calling what other people would call 100-0 99-1.

 

[TheMike]

At a top level, the Sheik player will not be too predictable for being punished. She'll probably find ways to avoid what Ganon would do so as to punish and she can do this because she has infinite options on this MU. And the same we can say for Sheik reading Ganon. So, if we think this way, every MU will be even.

 

[adumbrodeus]

At a top level, the Sheik player will not be too predictable for being punished. She'll probably find ways to avoid what Ganon would do so as to punish and she can do this because she has infinite options on this MU. And the same we can say for Sheik reading Ganon. So, if we think this way, every MU will be even.

...

No.


The top of the metagame is technical perfection, it doesn't talk about reading ability.


In essence, when we're talking about "difficulty level", we're talking about how much better you're gotta be at reading your opponent then your opponent is at reading you, and how much better you need to be at not getting read.



And yes, we can say if Sheik reads Ganon that well, Sheik will win, we can also say that Sheik will win if Ganon reads Sheik anything less then pretty much perfectly. That's what defines a match-up being bad.

 

[TheMike]

And yes, we can say if Sheik reads Ganon that well, Sheik will win, we can also say that Sheik will win if Ganon reads Sheik anything less then pretty much perfectly. That's what defines a match-up being bad.

So we're talking about player skill. MUs should be based on the character's advantage against the other. If we count player skill, 100:0 MUs probably don't exist, but analyzing both character's metagame, 100:0 may exist.

 

[@HomE]

Match ups are based off the assumption that the two people are of equal skill, and at the top of the meta game for their respective char.

You said yourself if the Ganon was substantially better then the Sheik player, he can win; this has absolutely nothing to do with match up #'s. BECAUSE its assumed that the players are of equal skill. A Sheik at the top of his meta game, will always beat a Ganon at the top of his meta game.


0-100

to me means that at the top of the meta game, the best Sheik can beat the best Ganon one hundred times, in one hundred games. with equally skilled players the Sheik will win every time.

Sry

 

[adumbrodeus]

So we're talking about player skill. MUs should be based on the character's advantage against the other. If we count player skill, 100:0 MUs probably don't exist, but analyzing both character's metagame, 100:0 may exist.

Match ups are based off the assumption that the two people are of equal skill, and at the top of the meta game for their respective char.

You said yourself if the Ganon was substantially better then the Sheik player, he can win; this has absolutely nothing to do with match up #'s. BECAUSE its assumed that the players are of equal skill. A Sheik at the top of his meta game, will always beat a Ganon at the top of his meta game.


0-100

to me means that at the top of the meta game, the best Sheik can beat the best Ganon one hundred times, in one hundred games. with equally skilled players the Sheik will win every time.

Sry

Ummm, no.


Match-up ratios define HOW MUCH BETTER YOU HAVE TO BE THEN YOUR OPPONENT IN ORDER TO PUSH YOUR WIN RATIO TO 50%.


That's fundamentally what a "difficulty ratio" is, you've gotta this much better.


Edit:

If we're talking about win percentages, then yes it is equal skill, but in that case, luck comes into play, and purely by raw number of tests a Ganondorf should beat a sheik of equal skill eventually at the top of the metagame.


However, difficulty ratio simply makes no sense without incorperating different skills.



Honestly, if we followed the ideas you guys are putting forth then every match-up would be 100-0, because it requires better skill level for all match-ups where one side is disadvantaged for it to become even.

 

[TheMike]

Match-up ratios define HOW MUCH BETTER YOU HAVE TO BE THEN YOUR OPPONENT IN ORDER TO PUSH YOUR WIN RATIO TO 50%.

If it's "you", not the "character", we need to discuss MUs like "Player X" vs "Player Y". If we count player skill, everything may happen, such as the Ganon player winning the Sheik player, it's difficult, but not impossible, even if they are playing at the same level, strange things may happen and imagining "perfect" games is impossible. But if we count the character's possibilities against the other one, we can say that it's impossible for Ganon to win Sheik.

 

[Nanaki]

Ummm, no.


Match-up ratios define HOW MUCH BETTER YOU HAVE TO BE THEN YOUR OPPONENT IN ORDER TO PUSH YOUR WIN RATIO TO 50%.


That's fundamentally what a "difficulty ratio" is, you've gotta this much better.


Edit:

If we're talking about win percentages, then yes it is equal skill, but in that case, luck comes into play, and purely by raw number of tests a Ganondorf should beat a sheik of equal skill eventually at the top of the metagame.


However, difficulty ratio simply makes no sense without incorperating different skills.



Honestly, if we followed the ideas you guys are putting forth then every match-up would be 100-0, because it requires better skill level for all match-ups where one side is disadvantaged for it to become even.

I agree with you entirely on the definition of how the ratios work, but not on the lack of overall 100-0's.

This matchup requires the Ganon player to be beyond perfection at the top of the characters' respective metagames. Even with perfect reads, you still won't win.

You literally have to be infinitely better than your opponent to push it to 50% wins.

Therefore, I'd call it 100-0.

 

[TheMike]

Ray, open a poll about what has being said here(100:0, 99:01 or 95:05. Let's see what the whole board thinks) so as to continue the ROB vs Ganon Match-up discussion...


- Edit: God night everybody. It's already midnight here in Brazil =S

 

[weinner]

Discussions about match-up ratios are serious business.

If you want my opinion (which you probably don't), I dislike the system of "This is how hard the match-up is. Your opinion must match this one exactly in order to succeed in life". There really can't be a definite ratio as to how people feel of the match and that everyone can agree on. Numbers have the dubious distinction of screwing with people's opinion, despite being numbers and meaning what they show. Of course, that's just me.

Please don't insult me for having an opinion. I know this is the internet, but I am begging you to please let me be.

 

[PK-ow!]

Discussions about match-up ratios are serious business.

If you want my opinion (which you probably don't), I dislike the system of "This is how hard the match-up is. Your opinion must match this one exactly in order to succeed in life". There really can't be a definite ratio as to how people feel of the match and that everyone can agree on. Numbers have the dubious distinction of screwing with people's opinion, despite being numbers and meaning what they show. Of course, that's just me.

Numbers don't necessarily make all meanings definite, and certainly don't always guarantee mathematical theoremhood.

The way they are used in matchup ratios, we may as well use letters (or scratch markings): an A grade matchup, or a 'Class D' matchup, etc. We're just using numerals to write labels.

50-50 expresses even-ness, and 0-100 expresses the 'unbelongingness' of a singularity (in this case, an undefined ratio), but the others have no isomorphic relation to the rationals (ratios) at all. 70-30 means what people grok 70-30 to mean, nothing else.


But, you probably knew all that. Or agree with me now.


Also,
Only in Brawl_Ganon does the MU thread argue 1-99 and 0-100.

Only in Brawl.

. . .

. . .

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I watch DLA beat Kennispam(Shiek Main) in tournament and MM's at tournaments. Watching Ganon win makes me smile yet shutter in fear of DLA, his Ganon is the best I've seen.

Kenni still isn't camping with the chain and doing some of the tips I told him. :/

 

[smashkng]

What is then the Ganon-Sheik matchup if chain is considered stalling (stalling means do something that makes you unreachable for the opponent, like infiniting the opponent endlessly, and so does the chain on Ganon) and therefore a banned technique to waste time?

 

[rathy Aro]

Stalling is when you make it impossible for the two opponents to make contact. Ganon can make contact, its just to his disadvantage therefore if he chooses not to get hit by chain then he is stalling as much as sheik is. Still pretty gay though. lol

 

[Superspright]

Yeah, the chain isn't really stalling per se--it is the most extremely safe form of camping there is. In fact, Ganon should never be able to get around the chain if they were frame perfect [or extremely good with it]. It is technically impossible if one were using it right.

 

[TheMike]

smashkng said "if". He didn't say that it's considered stalling, but if so, Sheik's advantage will probably drop to something about 70/75-30/25 or maybe a little bit higher.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've never had a Sheik successfully chaincamp me, but I think the matchup is 95/5. She juggles you from like 20-90 or something like that. She camps you. Her jab, dash attack, and D-smash basically can't be shieldgrabbed. F-air still gimps you hard.