"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Stealth Raptor]

its small, but if managed correctly pikachu should never get it broken except by marth. it is so easy for us to run away and plank for a couple ledge grabs and get our sheild back. i havent had my sheild broken in a loooooong time.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Pikachu has the smallest shield size in the game, so his shield is extremely easy to break.

False logic.

All shields have the same duration in this game, except for Yoshi's, whose shield lasts one frame longer than normal.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

the only difference is that the smaller sheild is easy sheild poked, so honestly it gets broken less often just because we get poked long before it breaks.

 

[Superspright]

False logic? Don't you mean, bad logic? His logic makes sense, but he just didn't do the experiment himself. He's just ignorant really; just like most of us here who are trying to learn.

 

[smashkng]

But it's never good to have a small shield because it's never good to be shield poked, you take full damage and full knockback. Still I agree this is a hard matchup because of projectile, chain grab and priority.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

But it's never good to have a small shield. It's also never good to be shield poked.

Ganon's shield is small itself.

 

[thexsunrosered]

Ganon's shield is small itself.

lmao Kalm I hate you

 

[smashkng]

Ganon's shield is small itself.

It's average. Its cover is like most characters have. Ganon's shield size is not bad at all. DK's shield is very small compared to his body. And also Pikachu's one.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

It's average. Its cover is like most characters have. Ganon's shield size is not bad at all. DK's shield is very small compared to his body. And also Pikachu's one.

It's smaller than it should be.

 

[smashkng]

It's smaller than it should be.

Most characters' full shield doesn't completely cover them (though only a tiny part of it isn't covered).

 

[Technodeath]

yes, but being the tallest character in the game, the shield should be at least a bit bigger than it is

 

[Ray_Kalm]

New match-up (Ness).

 

[Uffe]

I'd really like to see what you Ganondorf mains think the match up ratio is first. Hopefully by the time I check back, I'll see something.

 

[_clinton]

Canon wise and match up wise...I'm pretty sure Ness wins...

Ness has the tools to make Ganondorf approach and a good enough defensive game to push Ganondorf away and for a mid weight character Ness is packing some good situational kill power moves + a good number of normal kill moves (besides Bthrow)

Gimping is still on Ness' good kill areas but Ganondorf is packing a good gimp tool as well with Uair...because unlike Lucas...Ness' PKT2 has real issues (at least with range...that's the real issue with PKT...not the chance of the Thunder being stolen) ^_^

Of course Ness has more than his 2nd jump and PK Thunder for recovery tools...he can stall his fall with PSI magnet and he has about 3 different methods of using his 2nd jump...

Ness is a small target as well...some things to note is that Ness' duck can avoid Ganondorf's murder kick + a few other moves off the top of my head as well...

Another note on Ganondorf's murder kick...it will go over a ground PK Fire bolt (so add that to the reasons why Ness users shouldn't spam PK Fire)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Canon wise Ganondorf has this matchup 90/10 in his favor. After all, only Link can defeat Ganon.

I really don't think this matchup is that bad for Ganondorf at all...I'd say 6/4 Ness at the VERY worst.

Ness really can't camp except on wifi, his projectiles are no threat if you know powershielding. Only PK Thunder can do anything to you when it comes to juggles, and N-air outprioritizes that.

F-tilt can be used to stop Ness's approaches really effectively. Trades hits with F-air.

Generally speaking if you know what aerial is coming, you have enough range to beat it out, so use that to your advantage. And of course, juggle and gimp him.

 

[Bahamut777]

I think this one goes to Ness (duh!)

Ness' aerial mobility plus lagless aerials can gimp and combo Ganon's big *** pretty easy.
The PSI boy also have a big projectile game that includes 3 projectiles (excluding PSI Flush... no way ppl get hit by thet during the gameplay). PK Fire can be easly SDIed away, but it's still a pain. PK Thunder can give Ganon some problems because of it's speed and low ending lag, letting Ness get another one out of the sack. PKT2 can kill Ganon pretty easily for his weight and I know good Ness players can mindgame a PKT2 very well.
What makes Ness REALLY a pain is his high kill potential (DAir, BAir, PKT2, BThrow, Gimp...) and his low height, making him really hard to hit with some good moves, like FAir and BAir on gound level.

But Ganon can have his merits as well... Ganon CAN gimp Ness easily with UAir (Tipman or not) and kill at somewhat-low percents, aside from scoring DAirs due to Ness' standing in the air during his recovery.
Ganon's big *** can eat up PK Thunders during recovery, screwing up Ness.
Ness' weight is somewhat-low, making him an easy kill target even by not gimping him to oblivion.
Ganon's DownB can overide Ness' PK Fire and it clashes with PK Thunder if sweetspoted (if the PK Thunder's ball clashes on Ganon's foot). I THINK (not certain) that FTilt cancels the PK Thunder as well.
IMO, Ness is one of the most easily Thunderstorm-able chars in the game (dunno why...), that means easy 80%.

I'm no good giving up ratios, but I would say 55:45 Ness just because he can screw up Ganon's recovery and have set-ups to do so.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness is midweight keep in mind.

The reason why I think this matchup is not bad for Ganon is because of Ness's crap range and limited approach/zoning options. Ness is very straightforward. If you can deal with his F-air, there isn't much else he can do that's safe. Ganon's massive range lets him trade hits with F-air provided you just attack as soon as he jumps.

He can't exactly camp you either, since his projectiles are SUPER telegraphed.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Canon wise and match up wise...I'm pretty sure Ness wins...

Lolwut? Canon wise Ganon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ness.

You should see how much he owns in this thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235552

 

[Uffe]

Ness really can't camp except on wifi, his projectiles are no threat if you know powershielding. Only PK Thunder can do anything to you when it comes to juggles, and N-air outprioritizes that.

Ganondorf is good on wifi as well. Ness can camp Ganondorf. Anyway, this match up is 60:40 or 55:45, Ness. I've fought some Ganondorf's a few days ago and man they were tough. It could be the lack of exp. against them, but it's no doubt that Ganondorf can win just as easily. He's a powerhouse and he's not a character you should take kindly to. He may be slow and lack projectile, but he's strong and that's what makes up for what he lacks.

I feel Ganondorf relies heavily on mindgames and such, as that's what I've seen when fighting some Ganondorf mains myself. I personally think this is 55:45, Ness' favor. However, as I've mentioned before, it could just be a lack of exp. on my part. So I could be wrong about the match up ratio.

 

[Superspright]

It is much worse than that. If the Ganon can consistently shield the fair chains and bair pokes that are sure to come then he can be in good shape.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

I know this is out of nowhere but the ganon vs bowzer vid from the matchup summary is a terrible vid!
The bowser totally sucks!!! I would suggest finding a high-level bowzer vs Ganondorf match but those are super rare. If i didnt have such terrible wifi i would challenge u guys to some matches but i do have bad wifi. Bowzer + wifi = fail

 

[Uffe]

It is much worse than that. If the Ganon can consistently shield the fair chains and bair pokes that are sure to come then he can be in good shape.

But if your opponent is constantly shielding, then he can be grabbed. And trust me, there are ways of making sure to land a grab by seeing how your opponent reacts before actually making the attempt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf is good on wifi as well. Ness can camp Ganondorf. Anyway, this match up is 60:40 or 55:45, Ness. I've fought some Ganondorf's a few days ago and man they were tough. It could be the lack of exp. against them, but it's no doubt that Ganondorf can win just as easily. He's a powerhouse and he's not a character you should take kindly to. He may be slow and lack projectile, but he's strong and that's what makes up for what he lacks.

I feel Ganondorf relies heavily on mindgames and such, as that's what I've seen when fighting some Ganondorf mains myself. I personally think this is 55:45, Ness' favor. However, as I've mentioned before, it could just be a lack of exp. on my part. So I could be wrong about the match up ratio.

Technically, all anyone needs to do to beat Ganondorf is shieldcamp him, and spotdodge any grabs he does.

Ness doesn't have a particularly good out of shield game however, minus the fact his B-throw is pretty gay at KO percents, and his F-air works alright oos.

Ness I'd say takes more risk than most characters trying to poke Ganon, due to him not having all that much range in general except on a multihit F-air that trades hits when people with good range attack when he does, and his camping isn't a huge threat.

tl;dr Ness doesn't do much to outright shut Ganon down, besides the fact Ganondorf is laughably awful, so Ganondorf actually has a legitimate chance to get away with some cheap powerful hits due to his range advantage.

 

[_clinton]

Ness doesn't have a particularly good out of shield game however, minus the fact his B-throw is pretty gay at KO percents, and his F-air works alright oos.

I disagree with Ness having a bad OoS game...he might not have anything that makes him invinsible from frame 1-5 and then attacks like some other characters do...or some scary kill moves besides Bthrow (which with Ness' standing grab...you'd better perfect shield if you want to try that) but as far as speedy slaps go that add up and annoy...Ness does have them...
For one...Nair is by far better OoS than Fair is...it comes out faster...can be thrown out two times...or link into something else...

In fair regards...I feel Ness is pretty safe at screwing with other shields if played right...but maybe that's just me

Anyway keep in mind that Ness' PK Thunder is a swiss army knife as far as 2nd uses go...it can be used to help add on to some spacing options and mess with others spacing options in that regard if used right...some results can be quite unexpected...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzSa2trDgCM&feature=related

Also...because I want to ^_^

Canon wise Ganondorf has this matchup 90/10 in his favor. After all, only Link can defeat Ganon.

Link can only beat Ganondorf because he has the help of 1/3 of a god power device...and a tool that neutralizes that said god power

Ness power brings fear into a being who's power is or equal to a god that does what those 3 goddess did...mainly because of him having the same thing

Lolwut? Canon wise Ganon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ness.

You should see how much he owns in this thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235552

That thread is so stupid for how those rules are made in those matches...How on Earth would Lucas lose to Samus? He can destroy Earth and beyond with his power alone! (just like the Link's = to the Link's from that canon...Ness is = to Lucas)

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

I disagree with Ness having a bad OoS game...he might not have anything that makes him invinsible from frame 1-5 and then attacks like some other characters do...or some scary kill moves besides Bthrow (which with Ness' standing grab...you'd better perfect shield if you want to try that) but as far as speedy slaps go that add up and annoy...Ness does have them...
For one...Nair is by far better OoS than Fair is...it comes out faster...can be thrown out two times...or link into something else...

In fair regards...I feel Ness is pretty safe at screwing with other shields if played right...but maybe that's just me

Anyway keep in mind that Ness' PK Thunder is a swiss army knife as far as 2nd uses go...it can be used to help add on to some spacing options and mess with others spacing options in that regard if used right...some results can be quite unexpected...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzSa2trDgCM&feature=related

Also...because I want to ^_^



Link can only beat Ganondorf because he has the help of 1/3 of a god power device...and a tool that neutralizes that said god power

Ness power brings fear into a being who's power is or equal to a god that does what those 3 goddess did...mainly because of him having the same thing



That thread is so stupid for how those rules are made in those matches...How on Earth would Lucas lose to Samus? He can destroy Earth and beyond with his power alone! (just like the Link's = to the Link's from that canon...Ness is = to Lucas)

You can always come in and argue that.

 

[Clai]

I know this is out of nowhere but the ganon vs bowzer vid from the matchup summary is a terrible vid!
The bowser totally sucks!!! I would suggest finding a high-level bowzer vs Ganondorf match but those are super rare. If i didnt have such terrible wifi i would challenge u guys to some matches but i do have bad wifi. Bowzer + wifi = fail

While you should keep in mind that the videos in the first post are laughably out of date, I play regularly with Vex in tournament and it's only been through tough luck that I haven't been able to get videos of our matches. If I get some, I'll be sure to put them in your boards for your pleasure.

Also, I agree with everything Clinton says about Ness' out of shield game. N-air is a great OoS option to push the other character out of the way, and F-air has its purposes OoS as well. Ness' aerial game in general is scary, but thankfully we outrange him pretty well, so we can keep Ness from having his way in the air.

 

[Superspright]

I dunno about that. We may outrange him, but it's a hell of a lot easier for ness to gimp us, and to combo us.

 

[_clinton]

You can always come in and argue that.

Maybe I will go screw around in there...your thread certainly isn't the worse one I've seen that chats about canon...

 

[Technodeath]

GANON, his name is GANON, not Canon.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

Pretty sure he meant so say canon and not ganon. He was talking about loz rules and timeline and whatnot "i tell u what."
@clai
that would be great
ps. I am a terrible troll. I am too polite lol

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Link seems like a harder match-up for Ganon than what I first thought.

 

[Berserker.]

Since Link can spam arrows faster and he has some bombs to control and Samus' missiles aren't that fast like Link's arrows, maybe Link is harder but can Dash attack out prioritize Link's arrows?

 

[Superspright]

Definitely. Even on Wifi I can consistently shield/PS their projectiles and make a lame SHAD approach or whatever and then go in for a well spaced dtilt or a choke if they screw up on their short hopped missles.

Link is a real pain in the *** if he's any good, but his abysmal recovery makes my tipman happy.

 

[Z1GMA]

30 : 70

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario's are discussing Ganondorf. Come help us so that we get the ratio right.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227291&page=159

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Moving on to Fox.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox...so like, he'll laser camp, U-tilt juggle you, and then try to kill you at like 100% with his Up-smash.

6/4 Fox at worst. He's one of few characters you can viably shieldgrab out of stuff because his stuff generally fails on block, he's super light so you can kill him extremely early and Flame Choke D-tilt him.

Of course, he'll force you to approach, but what is important to note is that Fox can't safely approach either.

 

[Z1GMA]

Question is:
What can we do if the Fox Player decides to go all gay and travel from ledge to ledge, (without being predictable) and camp the **** out of us?

20 : 80

Without his Laser Camping, this match-up-ratio would've been like 40:60

 

[thexsunrosered]

his lasers don't reach that far though o.O If he really wants to be gay, just get ahead in percentage and then chill on the other side of the level, his lasers won't reach

 

[Z1GMA]

his lasers don't reach that far though o.O If he really wants to be gay, just get ahead in percentage and then chill on the other side of the level, his lasers won't reach

If his lasers doesn't reach, he'll move a little closer.

I guess you could hang by the ledge, but a Smart Fox would punish a Ledge Camping 'Dorf.