"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[A2ZOMG]

N-air, U-air, and F-air can beat his B-air.

He shouldn't be approaching you ever though, since it's just too easy for Ganon to get shieldgrabbed.

 

[~Firefly~]

I would like to give more in-depth info on what Ganon should do, but I don't really know what to say, and my experience in the match-up was quite a while ago. You pretty much have to rely on Yoshi's mistakes to create openings, or try to bait him into doing something wrong. If you approach from the air, we can pivot grab you and chaingrab, and the same pretty much applies to your ground approaches. We can also Bair some of your options and follow up with tilts or whatever else we feel like using. You really have to mess with Yoshi's mind just to break his defence.

As for stages, I'd ban Rainbow Cruise if I were you. I don't know how Ganon mains as a whole view this stage, but when I CPed this against Kosk, it was pretty much a free win for me. Yoshi's greatly superior mobility just leaves Ganon in the dust, and you'll really be struggling against a Yoshi who is even mildly familiar with the stage. I wouldn't counterpick Norfair against Yoshi either, because as long as Yoshi is cautious of Ganon's sideB shinanigans, he'll do just fine. His chaingrab may not be as useful, but Yoshi can camp really well in the center of the stage, and we can harass you effectively from below. I'm sure Ganon probably has some good ways of using the platforms himself, but Yoshi's mobility usually gets him the positional advantage.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9007244#post9007244

hello guys...Luigi vs ganon is being discussed...finally

 

[6Mizu]

Not sure if Ganon can do it.....but B-air is DIable(obviously)....just putting it out there.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Not sure if Ganon can do it.....but B-air is DIable(obviously)....just putting it out there.

That helps a lot.

/sarcasm.

 

[stRIP]

The CG to Spike is NOWHERE guaranteed

If a Yoshi is trying to do it, just DI away from the stage at the last grabrelease and do an uair. Its that easy

 

[Z1GMA]

I'll sit this one out; I've never fought a skilled Yoshi.

 

[Bahamut777]

What makes BAir an annoying move is not the fact that it's multi-hit. It is it's low knockback AND high priority, just like Tipman (a little worse, I'd say). It can screw recoverys better than most of Yoshi's moves and break upcoming attacks unless if the hitbox hits Yoshi first.

The biggest and mindgame-independent matter in this MU is the GR. We can't spot dodge it forever. The problem is: what can we do when we're free from that lizard's mouth? Have someone tested midairjump->DAir to spike when Yoshi is coming for the Spike?

 

[thexsunrosered]

Guaranteed gimp based on prediction, possibly, but not a guaranteed spike.

When I said guaranteed spike, I meant that if you get CG'd you're probably gonna die >.>

 

[~Firefly~]

Yoshi shouldn't be going for the spike anyway. Egg lay is guaranteed, so you'll have to break out as quickly as possible and find a way to get back to the stage with getting gimped. I didn't do this very often myself, so I don't know what to tell you; I just threw Kosk offstage and pelted eggs at him. I wasn't confident enough in my abilities back then to reliably get the egg lay to land every time.

 

[PK-ow!]

If Yoshi can only Nair us out of Up-B, we should edgeguard with it.

It won't give him back any jumps, and as a grab, it does get him out of his DJ.




I really have no idea how to fight Yoshi at all, though. His attacks are all just so annoying... knocking you into the *worst* places Ganon wants to be, and on all his moves from fastest to strongest.
They're seemingly unsolvable. He wins by appearing innocuous... getting silently set up for a long string .... like the shoto in Street Fighter, I guess.

And on top of everything, BAir and CG.


Does anyone know a reason why this *shouldn't* be ranked as hard as Falco?

 

[thexsunrosered]

If Yoshi can only Nair us out of Up-B, we should edgeguard with it.

It won't give him back any jumps, and as a grab, it does get him out of his DJ.




I really have no idea how to fight Yoshi at all, though. His attacks are all just so annoying... knocking you into the *worst* places Ganon wants to be, and on all his moves from fastest to strongest.
They're seemingly unsolvable. He wins by appearing innocuous... getting silently set up for a long string .... like the shoto in Street Fighter, I guess.

And on top of everything, BAir and CG.


Does anyone know a reason why this *shouldn't* be ranked as hard as Falco?

It's just as bad. I feel like Yoshis weight and DJ even out in this matchup and it ends up as **** for us

 

[bigman40]

Mmmkay....I'ma just make my take on it real quick and you guys can take what you wish from it.

Yoshi will have a very easy time beating Ganon for a multitude of reasons. We all know that he can CG Ganon, and that the spike isn't guaranteed. However, we don't have to necessarily go for the spike. Being out there while you're trying to recover is a lot of pressure for you to make the right decision (you assume we're gonna spike you, and we can punish your Uair lag).

Your best options to beating Bair is just by staying grounded and using Ftilt whenever you have the space to get it out. Other than that, you don't have any other options to stop Bair from happening unless you want to test your own Bair with Yoshi's or something like SideBing him just before he can pull another one off.

For CPs, your options are heavily outweighed. We have Castle Siege, Delfino, Frigate (right side), and Rainbow Cruise that have walkoffs, miniwalls, no ledges, etc. that makes getting grabbed worse. The tradeoff to most of those stags are at least that you can camp a little better with the variety of platforms.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Yoshi's shouldn't be getting anxious to get a kill since mistakes on Ganon's part = CG. If any Yoshi's get anxious, then it's your opportunity to add in as much damage as possible.

So yeah....Pretty much fight this like the Ic's MU to avoid grabs, and shield the eggs. I'm not great on MU ratios, but I see it as 80:20 Yoshi. Sry Ganons


Edit: Oh, and if Yoshi can DR efficiently, then he can use more options to screw you guys over more. Yoshi, out of grab release, can do Dtilt, Ftilt, and Dsmash (Possibly Fsmash if we're in a very specific spot over the ledge, but I haven't tested it).

~Mieu

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Moving on to Marth.

 

[Albert.]

Ganon is so scary D:

 

[Z1GMA]

80 : 20 If you can **** all his Counters with your Utilt.
... >_>

Seriously, though:
15 : 85
If only we had a garanteed attack after Gerudo.
Then it would at least be like 20:80.
(Gerudos can be hard to land upon Marth, yes, but damage is damage.)

We can't Dtilt-juggle him either.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I agree with Z1gma.

 

[@HomE]

I don't have enough high level Marth exp to give a detailed breakdown, but i do agree with Z1G's numbers. Both 80/20 and 15/85 both seem fair to me. Spacing seems to be very important in this match-up.


If only Ganon would use his sword... sigh

 

[Bahamut777]

Marth tends (almost always) to be an offensive opponent with a very good spacing, but a big lack of shield push and shield break options (asside from Shield Breaker itself), what makes him VERY easy to shield grab anytime during his approaches (aside from running grab and then follow ups).

Avoid getting Marth on air. It's the (IMO) third best aerial game of all characters (losing to Jigglypuff and Peach). Ganon can be gimped with ease with Marth's FAirs and BAirs and juggled with UAirs.

Marth doesn't have difficulty to kill here, since he can FSmash sweetspot, DAir spike and UpB fresh kill Ganon's big azz.

Ganon's more effective options are keeping up the defensive game with the shield and not dodges and rolls. Marth's recovery can be stompt with ease if predicted and not edge-sweetspoted. Also, We can gimp him with UAir, since his horizontal recovery isn't all that good.

Unfortunattely, 70:30

Counterpicks involve stages with big blast zones, making Ganon a die hard and Marth an easy kill due to his lightweight. Also, stages with more ground than aerial mobility would be very good. I suggest Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes, Pictochat and Castle Siege. Avoid Norfair, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise and Green Hill Zone.



And really. It would be good if people explain their ratings and give tips on dealing with the MU, not just give the ratios...
I think we're all here to improve our game, not to play Bingo.

 

[PK-ow!]

Your only hope is if the Marth player loves his beauty too much to play properly ghey against you.

Ganon is supposed to have range and some priority, but Marth's disjoints beat all Ganon's stuff as a rule (actually, you can sometimes clank, but I don't realistically see this being planned for, and for sure not against theory-fighter).

He's got combos to death with basic non-tippers, way too much safe stuff, and his grab is just disrespectful.


... Ganon is an exercise in working out the subtleties between 30:70 and worse, isn't he.


Don't forget about utilt, actually. If you can CP to a stage without edges, you really should be able to **** Marth when he has to use Dolphin Slash. And if Marth does start using Counter - which he shouldn't, so back again to the vanity point - then utilt will punish it in the ultimate way.


The lamest thing about this matchup has got to be that, although Marth still has to stop DB if it goes on your shield... he can still save himself. He stops, you're there with your shield, and you can't act faster than he can jab... or just continue DB. With horrible spacing of course you can grab, but only noobs would use DB in such a way.

Your only chance, as usual, is to try and get in his head, bait something, and smack him dead. Marth can't be juggled per se, but he can be buffeted around in ways that make him uncomfortable. His moveset is too logical for his own good in that respect.


I agree about the Gerudo followups.
However, I 'll bet that if you power shield the wake-up, you have time for something meaningful. It's likely hopeless to try to run -> Pivot Side-B back again.
Some characters have their non-attack frame data up. We need 10 frames, but the wake-ups I've seen are slower than you might think. (For instance, we can actually land an Fsmash on Peach if we PS her wake-up attack.)



Now I'm speculating, but I feel like you should try and control his movements. I'm not sure how.... but when MArth isn't the distance from the ground he wants, he's weaker. Playing close to the edge in a high stakes game may be better than just getting tossed around, FAired, and eventually Fsmash combo'd. :-\

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Marth tends (almost always) to be an offensive opponent with a very good spacing, but a big lack of shield push and shield break options (asside from Shield Breaker itself), what makes him VERY easy to shield grab anytime during his approaches (aside from running grab and then follow ups)..

You really don't seem to know the match-up.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Honestly guys, the most soul-crushing thing about this match-up is how impossible marth is to approach.


He can pretty much lay down walls, put pressure on you, and zone you to **** and back and there's literally nothing Ganon can reliably do about it. None of Ganon's options beat any of marth's reliably, and none of them beat many of marth's options.



Oh, that and marth can dolphin slash out of just about everything.




As far as advice goes, pay a lot of attention to your vertical spacing, a lot of marth's moves arc out in front of him, being perfectly spaced horizontally spaced but above the hitbox is one of the few places that you can flat-out beat his moves (note that he can do the same to you).


Pay close attention to what the marth player does when he's zoning and applying shield pressure, any pattern is an opportunity to attack.



Any time you hit shield, expect to be punished badly, so don't hit shield. Marth is good at shield-stabbing so don't relie on your shield to protect you, find a weakness and exploit it.



Basically my previous write-ups still apply, also I find it amusing how last time it was pulling teeth to convince you guys it was bad (and then pulling teeth to convince you guys MK was worse).


Note: This match-up seems a lot easier at lower levels of play, because a lot of it depends on good spacing and good reaction time. At mid-level play it won't be uncommon to see Ganon win. But as you approach top of the metagame it becomes completely impossible.

Marth tends (almost always) to be an offensive opponent with a very good spacing

No.

That's the 65-35 "if marth decides to not play gay" match-up.

The optimal strategy for marth is zoning and shield pressure, constantly.

but a big lack of shield push and shield break options (asside from Shield Breaker itself), what makes him VERY easy to shield grab anytime during his approaches (aside from running grab and then follow ups).

Except marth can space to avoid Ganondorf's pitiful shieldgrab range, in fact he can space to avoid any grab that isn't a tether. At the top of the metagame, Marth will not get shieldgrabbed.

Also, interesting bit of frame data, if marth actually IS in shieldgrab range... he could be baiting you. Fairing shield properly is -4 frames of advantage on block. Ganondorf's grab is 7 frames. Marth's dolphin slash is invincible frames 1-4 and hits on 5, which means that Marth can dolphin slash out of a shieldgrab attempt, so messing up his spacing enough to be in shieldgrab range is in and of itself a mindgame.

Avoid getting Marth on air. It's the (IMO) third best aerial game of all characters (losing to Jigglypuff and Peach). Ganon can be gimped with ease with Marth's FAirs and BAirs and juggled with UAirs.

MK's aerial game beats all of the above, his options are simply too good. I also don't know why you put jiggs on this list, but Marth's is definately better then peach/

But yeah, being in the air is a recipe for disaster.

Marth doesn't have difficulty to kill here, since he can FSmash sweetspot, DAir spike and UpB fresh kill Ganon's big azz.

Nair, tipper is his second strongest uncharged hitbox, and it's safe on shield.

Honestly though, those are all punishing moves, you leave yourself open for those. Of a greater concern is his nearly impenetrable defensive game, and his punishing game.

Oh, and gimp.

Ganon's more effective options are keeping up the defensive game with the shield and not dodges and rolls. Marth's recovery can be stompt with ease if predicted and not edge-sweetspoted. Also, We can gimp him with UAir, since his horizontal recovery isn't all that good.

And then marth gives constant shield pressure and zoning, limiting your options until you're forced to approach.

Or pressures you into a shield stab.


As far as recovery, yes, but marth has a high priority invincible 1-4 frame recovery, also fair is great at warding off opponents.

Unfortunattely, 70:30

80-20.

Counterpicks involve stages with big blast zones, making Ganon a die hard and Marth an easy kill due to his lightweight. Also, stages with more ground than aerial mobility would be very good. I suggest Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes, Pictochat and Castle Siege. Avoid Norfair, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise and Green Hill Zone.

Of main concern is his defensive game, you want stages that disrupt his zoning and force a reset.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can't do anything to Marth...sadly. If he just spaces and plays extremely safe, your best bet is to randomly run up and hope for powershields when he F-airs. You get punished for whiffing ANYTHING, and he gimps you hard. Flame Choke is hard as hell to land on him, and the reward is usually balls, so don't use it unless you know you can get him into a D-air trap near the edge or something.

And of course you can try to SDI out of Dancing Blade to U-air him...not that it will really help that much. And the usual gimp his *** whenever possible, which is hard if he knows how to mix up his recovery.

Of course keep an eye open for opportunities to U-air him and D-tilt/F-smash when he makes spacing mistakes...

 

[thexsunrosered]

how does ftilt react against his dtilt since ganons bottom leg is on the z-axis at the start? will ganon not be hit and then curb stomp marth? thatd be sweet :]

 

[Superspright]

ftilt is weird. It kinda teleports into the opponent. I'd say your best bet is to learn how to use fair off the stage especially. Because if he comes for the chase you might need that haymaker.

 

[smashkng]

Probably the only thing that Ganon can punish by shielding is Marth's missed up b. Punish there as hard as possible.

 

[Clai]

Personally, I feel that MK is an 80-20 matchup, and Marth's defensive options are nowhere near as inpenetrable as Metaknight's.

He can pretty much lay down walls, put pressure on you, and zone you to **** and back and there's literally nothing Ganon can reliably do about it. None of Ganon's options beat any of marth's reliably, and none of them beat many of marth's options.

Ganondorf gets destroyed when anyone zones him. There's not much Ganon can do about that. What Ganondorf needs to do is to make sure that Marth can't get close enough for him to zone like that. Marth is capable of setting up walls, but what we need to do is figure out the best course of action for each of Marth's walls. Rising Fair, Falling Fair, Nair, Dtilt, these moves aren't unbeatable or else he'd be right there with MK.

Oh, that and marth can dolphin slash out of just about everything.

That move is just so risky to use that if it isn't executed perfectly, then Marth is going to get punished heavily. We shouldn't be using laggy moves on shield anyway, so it's not like the threat of Dolphin Slash is going to threaten us that much.

As far as advice goes, pay a lot of attention to your vertical spacing, a lot of marth's moves arc out in front of him, being perfectly spaced horizontally spaced but above the hitbox is one of the few places that you can flat-out beat his moves (note that he can do the same to you).

I absolutely agree with this, and it helps that Ganondorf is a pretty good vertical spacer. This is going to help a lot with this matchup.

Any time you hit shield, expect to be punished badly, so don't hit shield. Marth is good at shield-stabbing so don't relie on your shield to protect you, find a weakness and exploit it.

What is Marth going to be punishing us with? Grabs? It'd be more helpful to know what Marth's punishing game is about, because we probably have ways to minimize the damage.

Note: This match-up seems a lot easier at lower levels of play, because a lot of it depends on good spacing and good reaction time. At mid-level play it won't be uncommon to see Ganon win. But as you approach top of the metagame it becomes completely impossible.

This is just theorycraft. Have you seen a Ganon player at the top of the metagame? Marth's defensive options are great, but they aren't impossible by a long shot.

As far as recovery, yes, but marth has a high priority invincible 1-4 frame recovery, also fair is great at warding off opponents.

It's pretty easy to edgehog Marth's recovery, so why can't we just bait Marth to use fair and then hog the stage when he's forced to Dolphin Slash? As long as you can force a reaction, you win no matter what he does. Distance-wise, DS goes about the same distance as Ganon's Dark Dive, so the same nonsense that we get as we get hogged from our recoveries applies to Marth as well.

Not to mention that Marth has RCO lag, which severely reduces his options once he gets back to the stage without Ganondorf destroying him.

I'd put this matchup as 70-30. Marth's moves really aren't as safe as people put them out to be, and at the top of the metagame, he's going to get punished, which is what Ganondorf loves to do.

By the way, powershield into f-tilt >>>>>>>>>>> Marth's Dancing Blade, and f-tilt sends Marth at the perfect trajectory to mess with him off-stage.

 

[Bahamut777]

I don't think Marth can really space perfectly during a real match. He will, sometime, miscalculate distance and get near enought for us to ****...

Also... I don't think of any good use of Gerudo here... Really... I can't seem to follow up properly against Marth... =(

 

[PK-ow!]

@Clai: I think MK v Ganon is 85:15, so. . . .

I don't think Marth can really space perfectly during a real match. He will, sometime, miscalculate distance and get near enought for us to ****...

Also... I don't think of any good use of Gerudo here... Really... I can't seem to follow up properly against Marth... =(

I watched a vid recently that showed Marth's wake-up attack has a laughably small hitbox in front. Ganon stepped back and then Fsmashed, seemingly walking through Marth's sword, then hitting the effeminate swordsman.

Maybe it was timing, but we do have that. As long as wake-up attack is covered with something that hurts that much, Gerudo is still alright on hit.



Also, that's a very important point about the mistake.
Look, no low tier character is gonna do jack until the opponent makes a mistake. Your job is to not die before he makes that mistake, by trying to cause that mistake to happen sooner - and to have a successor.

If you can ever do something that has only one answer, strongly consider doing it, because the opponent might screw it up.


*~*~*~
Minor note to get us started: I think Ganon ftilt might be good on Marth dtilt. If he was going for the tipper, bringing up our leading foot might be enough to get out of the way, and I know from playing Marth that a simple slap in the cranium is the way my dtilts get beaten.

It seems the only answer to FAirs is power-shield. :\

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ganondorf gets destroyed when anyone zones him. There's not much Ganon can do about that. What Ganondorf needs to do is to make sure that Marth can't get close enough for him to zone like that. Marth is capable of setting up walls, but what we need to do is figure out the best course of action for each of Marth's walls. Rising Fair, Falling Fair, Nair, Dtilt, these moves aren't unbeatable or else he'd be right there with MK.

The difference between Mk and Marth is this:

A. MK can literally just sit there, wait for you to committ, and ftilt you out of pretty much anything.

B. MK is just as crazy on offense as he is on defense, Marth is good on offense, but unlike MK, his offensive options aren't unstoppable.

His walls are beatable if you predict them perfectly.

That move is just so risky to use that if it isn't executed perfectly, then Marth is going to get punished heavily. We shouldn't be using laggy moves on shield anyway, so it's not like the threat of Dolphin Slash is going to threaten us that much.

You misunderstand, this means that any movestring that doesn't leave marth in hitstun the entire time is beaten by dolphin slash, just one frame of vulnerability is all he needs.

What is Marth going to be punishing us with? Grabs? It'd be more helpful to know what Marth's punishing game is about, because we probably have ways to minimize the damage.

Depends on what you do, almost everything leaves enough to eat a dancing blade, but if you hit shield with anything (except MAYBE a perfectly spaced dtilt) you can be dolphin slashed. More When he WILL use that is more stage dependant, but almost everything can be dancing bladed out of.


Grab too, sets up for juggling or gimping depending on the area and percent.

This is just theorycraft. Have you seen a Ganon player at the top of the metagame? Marth's defensive options are great, but they aren't impossible by a long shot.

This DISCUSSION is theorycraft. They aren't impossible, but they require very good prediction, or a technical ****-up by the marth player.

It's pretty easy to edgehog Marth's recovery, so why can't we just bait Marth to use fair and then hog the stage when he's forced to Dolphin Slash? As long as you can force a reaction, you win no matter what he does. Distance-wise, DS goes about the same distance as Ganon's Dark Dive, so the same nonsense that we get as we get hogged from our recoveries applies to Marth as well.

It does, the thing is, Marth has a lot better aerial maneuverability then Ganon does. It takes stronger hits to force him to use his up-b.

Also, Marth can stall in the air when you try to hog, severly limiting your ability to actually hog him.

Not to mention that Marth has RCO lag, which severely reduces his options once he gets back to the stage without Ganondorf destroying him.

True.



But the fact of the matter is, Marth's recovery is overall mediocre, Ganondorf's recovery is overall terrible, worst in the game in fact. Don't forget, marth can jump into Ganon's up-b and punish him for being hit.

Marth has the ability to stall to eat invincibility frames making hogging him a lot more dangerious.

Marth also has better options to get rid of RICO lag in his extremely safe fair and nair (his counter-ledge game is bad, but Ganon can't really take advantage of it unfortunately).

I'd put this matchup as 70-30. Marth's moves really aren't as safe as people put them out to be, and at the top of the metagame, he's going to get punished, which is what Ganondorf loves to do.

Punished, no. Read occasionally, yes.

Fair is ridiculously safe, even with spacing failure. Nair is ridiculously safe. Dtilt is a frame trap, Ganon can't punish ftilt when properly spaced.


I'm sorry, but check the frame data, other characters can punish marth, but Ganondorf doesn't have viable option except for from the moves that Marth would not wall with anyway.

By the way, powershield into f-tilt >>>>>>>>>>> Marth's Dancing Blade, and f-tilt sends Marth at the perfect trajectory to mess with him off-stage.

True... but why would you get a powershield of dancing blade? It's a punishing move, and a shield-stabbing move.

I don't think Marth can really space perfectly during a real match. He will, sometime, miscalculate distance and get near enought for us to ****...

Top of the metagame he will unless you make him space wrong actively. Fight Neo, see where expecting him to make a spacing error leads you.

And don't forget, miffed spacing actually could be a bait, because his up-b comes out before your shieldgrab.

Also... I don't think of any good use of Gerudo here... Really... I can't seem to follow up properly against Marth... =(

...

You're inside, tech-chase. Very few options on his end and reading properly leads to amazing things.

It seems the only answer to FAirs is power-shield. :\

If only marth didn't have a massive variety of fairing patterns and fair wasn't faster then reaction time.

 

[thexsunrosered]

lol pwnnnnn

 

[Bahamut777]

I didn't expressed myself properly back then. I meant about dealing with his GU attack. PK-ow! already posted something about ir back on.

I think you're getting Marth's UpB too high for a very laggy move if not stage canceled. =/
Marth's UpB can and always will be punished if shielded properly. =/

 

[adumbrodeus]

I didn't expressed myself properly back then. I meant about dealing with his GU attack. PK-ow! already posted something about ir back on.

What does this refer to?

I think you're getting Marth's UpB too high for a very laggy move if not stage canceled. =/
Marth's UpB can and always will be punished if shielded properly. =/

If Marth's up-b is shielded, you're doing it wrong (landing on a platform exempted).


Here's an important concept for high-leveled play, "a threat is often greater then it's execution".


What that means is that the mere existence of an option often prevents players from actually doing things that the option beats, so the option is rarely exercised. From the eye of an untrained person, they would think the option is useless, but the reality is that it's doing a lot, by preventing people from doing things covered by it, it has a massive effect on the game, even if it's not exercised.


For example, ICs. For most of the cast, they never need to chaingrab to destroy, yet if they had no change-grab their match-ups would be massively changed, do you know why?


Because the THREAT of getting grabbed prevents players from using a massive number of options. The easiest and most universal example is spacing, you would NEVER space in grab range of an IC player, or directly above their grab range, because if you do, they'll grab you. Same with ZSS spacing with forward b, it can be double powershielded and she'll get grabbed. Even if a grab never happens, those options the player would not take because they would get grabbed if they took it are sufficient to justify how massively important the grab is to the match-up.




Now, apply that to marth, any time you hit shield with anything (except maybe fully spaced dtilt, though it can be otherwise punished), then you get up-b'd. If you try to follow up a hit, you get up-b'd.


Now, if you actually do those things, in this particular match, then you'll learn why not to get up-b'd, but it solidifies his defensive game, because it prevents any reliable form of pressure on marth since you lack a safe on shield option.


So, even though he'll probably only use it once in a blue moon, it's mere existence limits Ganondorf's options to a massive degree.


Threat>>>>it's execution

 

[Clai]

You misunderstand, this means that any movestring that doesn't leave marth in hitstun the entire time is beaten by dolphin slash, just one frame of vulnerability is all he needs.

In which case, we can simply bait Marth into using some type of combo breaker and just hit him afterwards. If we can bait Marth into using Dolphin Slash by pretending to use a movestring that gets beat by Dolphin Slash but don't do anything, Ganondorf becomes a very happy man.

Depends on what you do, almost everything leaves enough to eat a dancing blade, but if you hit shield with anything (except MAYBE a perfectly spaced dtilt) you can be dolphin slashed. More When he WILL use that is more stage dependant, but almost everything can be dancing bladed out of.

Dancing Blade can be DI'd out of and punished. Besides, aren't there like 12 frames between each swing, so that players can hit Marth between swings? Dancing Blade is the least of Ganon's worries.

It does, the thing is, Marth has a lot better aerial maneuverability then Ganon does. It takes stronger hits to force him to use his up-b.

Also, Marth can stall in the air when you try to hog, severly limiting your ability to actually hog him.

I admit I forgot about the maneuverability differences, but Marth still has to worry about warding off any gimp attempts, then ward off any hog attempts, and then reach the ledge. We know how high Dolphin Slash goes, so our job is to ward him off until he can't reach that distance anymore.

Marth also has better options to get rid of RICO lag in his extremely safe fair and nair (his counter-ledge game is bad, but Ganon can't really take advantage of it unfortunately).

What do you mean counter-ledge? You mean Marth against a character on the ledge is bad? If you mean this, then Ganondorf probably has ways to take advantage of this, as he can do a lot more on the ledge than meets the eye.

True... but why would you get a powershield of dancing blade? It's a punishing move, and a shield-stabbing move.

What other options does Marth have if Ganondorf is right inside of Marth? Considering that Marth is trying to zone Ganondorf, this situation is likely to come up since Ganondorf can't do jack to Marth if he's inside. Considering Marth doesn't have the space to use his other moves without fear of getting punished, Dancing Blade is probably a good option for this scenario.

As for the threat of Dolphin Slash, we already know that hitting an opponent's shield with Ganondorf is asking for trouble, no matter who we're fighting, so we're already fighting with few options. There are much greater threats from hitting an opponent's shield than Dolphin Slash, so comparatively speaking, it isn't too bad (plus it doesn't kill until what, 150%).

 

[adumbrodeus]

In which case, we can simply bait Marth into using some type of combo breaker and just hit him afterwards. If we can bait Marth into using Dolphin Slash by pretending to use a movestring that gets beat by Dolphin Slash but don't do anything, Ganondorf becomes a very happy man.

See, THAT'S the kind of thinking you should begin with, you need to bait marth into doing stuff you can punish.


That said, part of the problem with that is basically all of Ganon's ground game is eliminated by this because it's slower then reaction time (frame 1 activation). Air game, all you can follow up with is the initial hitbox of uair, and nair.

So, two potential moves you can follow up with, and both of them will be dolphin slashed if you try, and to win you gotta get close enough to use them and airdodge.

Again, threat>execution.

Dancing Blade can be DI'd out of and punished. Besides, aren't there like 12 frames between each swing, so that players can hit Marth between swings? Dancing Blade is the least of Ganon's worries.

Depends on variation and positioning, adjusting the timing deals with pretty much all DI and the first two hits are guaranteed.

I admit I forgot about the maneuverability differences, but Marth still has to worry about warding off any gimp attempts, then ward off any hog attempts, and then reach the ledge. We know how high Dolphin Slash goes, so our job is to ward him off until he can't reach that distance anymore.

I didn't say it was impossible, it's just a LOT harder then the reverse. However, Ganon's outright killing power is nice.

Basically, the idea of this is, "small blast zones".

What do you mean counter-ledge? You mean Marth against a character on the ledge is bad? If you mean this, then Ganondorf probably has ways to take advantage of this, as he can do a lot more on the ledge than meets the eye.

Opposite, Marth is actually AMAZING at fighting people who are on the ledge, it's when he's on the ledge himself that he sux, hence Marth planking is useless.

What other options does Marth have if Ganondorf is right inside of Marth? Considering that Marth is trying to zone Ganondorf, this situation is likely to come up since Ganondorf can't do jack to Marth if he's inside. Considering Marth doesn't have the space to use his other moves without fear of getting punished, Dancing Blade is probably a good option for this scenario.

Retreating fair/nair/bair, empty full-hop/shorthop, dtilt.

All of those are perfectly safe in the situation. Dancing blade is faster then reaction time (including subsequent strikes), so good luck power-shielding it.

As for the threat of Dolphin Slash, we already know that hitting an opponent's shield with Ganondorf is asking for trouble, no matter who we're fighting, so we're already fighting with few options. There are much greater threats from hitting an opponent's shield than Dolphin Slash, so comparatively speaking, it isn't too bad (plus it doesn't kill until what, 150%).

It's 14 damage and puts you outside, which is where you don't wanna be. It also can get you off-stage far earlier which asks for a gimp.


Honestly what makes marth (almost) unique in this regard is usually there's at least one or two safe options, against marth there's literally nothing. Hit shield=punish.

 

[smashkng]

Marth gets ***** by edge hogging when he recovers. He usually either dies or you have a great chance to punish really hard the landing lag of his up b. And remember that Ganon can also plank (grab edge, drop, jump + uair, side b to grab the ledge).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth can literally fastfall a F-air and D-tilt, Up-B, or DB before Ganon can more.

Yeah, so tell me Marth can't offensively pressure Ganon that well? The frame advantage on fastfalled F-air is -4, which is faster than all shieldgrabs. Marth can do this with impunity to Ganon since he basically doesn't have to worry about getting shieldgrabbed.

 

[Superspright]

I like to play against Marth's, and I have won. Stomped them out of dolphin slash and what not--but I know deep down if I am playing a truly competent marth I should lose. Their zoning game is more annoying than Samus' because you really CAN'T PS without lots of prediction. Even then you are entirely relying on yomi to win. Perfect yomi I should say. Because you will have to be a telepath to win.

 

[jhorx123]

is there guides for other characters too?, link is hard and toon link is just **** fustrating.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Marth is annoying if he knows how to avoid Ganon's punishing accordingly. From my experience, dairs on Marth's usually don't work at all, it's to easy to punish Ganon with virtually all his moves beofre he can get the stomp out. Bairs usually work for me if you can get them in between his attacks as well as uairs. Another thing Marth's love doing is if you roll behind their attack, they'll reverse dolphin slash to punish which is crazy annoying <_< I just roll back to where I was until he knows I'll do that to punish his UpB. Edge hogging his UpB recovers is always recommended even if he land on the stage since it gives you a free get-up attack, uair or fair. Never Dtilt if Marth shields a lot seriously using dtilt makes your hurtbox go waaaaaaaaay out it front and it is easy to punish. Other than that it's all about how the Marth plays.