"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[PK-ow!]

What about Ganon trying something drastic.


Can Ganon try not attacking at all, just moving inside the sword, and throw/jab? It's not like waving hitboxes around changes what Marth wants to do or how he'll succeed at it. Not in your favour, anyway.

Thank the dark overlords that Marth doesn't have a projectile.

.... hmmm....

It occurs to me that Marth is underequipped for, staying on the side of you he wants to stay on. If he's closer to the edge, without knocking you down, he has to either roll (punishable and obvious), or jump (very punishable, but not exactly easily). Marth's jump is a precious resource and his DAir and BAir are both very laggy, and NAir is narrow (literally, but don't ignore the sour spot).
What can you do knowing he can't move through you?

I'm grasping here, because it seems only logical when your status situation is as dismal.


*~*~*~

Ganon's spot dodge slide might help him in this matchup. From your spot dodge, you can advance a bit on Marth, moving your jab into range if you were within Marth's tipper beforehand.
It's still a crapshoot because of that speed factor A2ZOMG spelled out, but you've got something for his slower options + grab. DB, DS, and Dtilt do yield to a common class of defensive options.

What is dtilt's exact frame data?

 

[adumbrodeus]

What about Ganon trying something drastic.


Can Ganon try not attacking at all, just moving inside the sword, and throw/jab? It's not like waving hitboxes around changes what Marth wants to do or how he'll succeed at it. Not in your favour, anyway.

Problem is, Marth's attacks are faster then reaction time, that tends to get you hit.

It occurs to me that Marth is underequipped for, staying on the side of you he wants to stay on. If he's closer to the edge, without knocking you down, he has to either roll (punishable and obvious), or jump (very punishable, but not exactly easily). Marth's jump is a precious resource and his DAir and BAir are both very laggy, and NAir is narrow (literally, but don't ignore the sour spot).
What can you do knowing he can't move through you?

There's a very narrow spacing that you can actually punish him, and moving into that with a lot of patterns will get you killed.


Well, actually, you CAN'T reliably punish him at any spacing (fair is -4 on shield, remember?).


And he can go through you, nairing on shield and landing behind works quite well.

Also, bair auto-cancels.

Ganon's spot dodge slide might help him in this matchup. From your spot dodge, you can advance a bit on Marth, moving your jab into range if you were within Marth's tipper beforehand.
It's still a crapshoot because of that speed factor A2ZOMG spelled out, but you've got something for his slower options + grab. DB, DS, and Dtilt do yield to a common class of defensive options.

But honestly, there's nothing marth would toss out to give you enough time. Good marth's take advantage of the fact that his moves are incredibly safe, sure you'll see the occassional use of unsafe moves, but that's only if the marth player thinks he read you.


Also, which defensive options are you talking about?

What is dtilt's exact frame data?

Marth's?


Hit: 7-13
End: 47
IASA: 21
Shield Stun: 11
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE: -7
Tipper Shield Stun: 11
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -14

He'll be avoiding the tipper here actually, and it's frame disadvantage is low enough to have minor frame trap properties.

 

[PK-ow!]

Also, bair auto-cancels.

Really?! Like, usefully, or just technically?

I use BAir a lot and probably screw around with Marth in the Waiting Room the second-greatest amount of time after Falcon. I haven't cancelled BAir. I've used BAir, finished it in the air, and landed without landing lag, but ... there's time in there to be hit.

Am I overestimating the lag I feel? Feels pretty laggy.

It's still a crapshoot because of that speed factor A2ZOMG spelled out, but you've got something for his slower options + grab. DB, DS, and Dtilt do yield to a common class of defensive options.

But honestly, there's nothing marth would toss out to give you enough time. Good marth's take advantage of the fact that his moves are incredibly safe, sure you'll see the occassional use of unsafe moves, but that's only if the marth player thinks he read you.


Also, which defensive options are you talking about?

Roll behind.
Yeah it's tight for dtilt.

[Marth's dtilt]

Hit: 7-13
End: 47
IASA: 21
Shield Stun: 11
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE: -7
Tipper Shield Stun: 11
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -14

He'll be avoiding the tipper here actually, and it's frame disadvantage is low enough to have minor frame trap properties.

Thx.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Moving on. Jiggylpuff.

 

[thexsunrosered]

Moving on. Jiggylpuff.

you should get online so that we can register eachother and I can send you the replays already

 

[adumbrodeus]

Really?! Like, usefully, or just technically?

I use BAir a lot and probably screw around with Marth in the Waiting Room the second-greatest amount of time after Falcon. I haven't cancelled BAir. I've used BAir, finished it in the air, and landed without landing lag, but ... there's time in there to be hit.

Am I overestimating the lag I feel? Feels pretty laggy.

VERY usefully actually. To the point where buffered out of a jump the IASA frames kick in soon enough to allow for fair to come out after it completes or a jump if you don't fast-fall, and it will auto-cancel with a fast-fall.

If you don't fast-fall, it will auto-cancel up to slightly below the apex of his jump coming up.


Since the hitbox comes up, it will hit short opponents.


Of course, if you're outside of the auto-cancel range, the landing lag is horrible.

Roll behind.
Yeah it's tight for dtilt.

Only on prediction, if it's after shielding you catch a dancing blade, if it's too early, I don't think I need to repeat myself. Dancing blade is ideal for punishing moves with invincibility.


I will say that dtilt is the only one marth will actually use as a poke, dancing blade and dolphin slash are punishers (with one being a shield poker too).


Basically, that's the generally problem, Ganondorf has options when he predicts marth, but each marth maneuver (that he would actually use with any sort of regularity) has a unique required countermeasure or at least unique timing, and this can't really be done on reaction. That and the windows are very very small.

Thx.

Np

 

[MBmoney]

Moving on. Jiggylpuff.

Horribly annoying for Ganon. I was in the losers finals of a low tier tourney against a Jigglypuff one time and the only thing Ganon can really do is hope that Jigglypuff messes up spacing or gets overly aggressive so he can punish, otherwise its a pretty 1-sided match-up. Ganon has to play really patiently and defensively waiting for openings . Jiggs can easily wall of pain you, and with good spacing Ganon can't punish or do anything about her aerials. I actually was 2-2 against the Jiggly and I went to Delfino for the last match where the Jiggs just ran out the time on me the last stock. Jiggly air camping>>Ganondorf.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jiggs wins 6/4 at minimum vs Ganon. Ganon well, he can kill her early if he can land random attacks, but Jiggs is simply a much better character who outcamps him.

 

[DLA]

I actually love this matchup. I can't really give an accurate prediction of the matchup because I haven't fought any of the top Jigglypuffs, but there are a few people in IL who have pretty legit Puffs.

The thing Jigglies need to remember in this matchup is that they NEED to stay in the air. Getting flame choked or stomped would be really unfortunate, because she may suffer a minor case of grisly, untimely death. Jiggz mains must live in constant fear, because that's the only thing that will keep them alive in this matchup.

Having said that, Ganon will not have a fun time getting past her aerial aerial game. He is going to get gimped a LOT, and camped/outspaced even more. Luckily, 1 Ganon hit = about 3-4 Jiggly hits (considering damage and weight of both characters), so any hit is a good hit for Ganon.

I've personally never gone less than 50/50 with a Jigglypuff, but from what I can tell Jigglypuff can do, I'd say an accurate ratio is about 65:35 or 60:40, Jiggly's favor.

 

[Breezy]

Spam reverse pivot grabbing and SH Uairs.

 

[@HomE]

Horribly annoying for Ganon. I was in the losers finals of a low tier tourney against a Jigglypuff one time and the only thing Ganon can really do is hope that Jigglypuff messes up spacing or gets overly aggressive so he can punish, otherwise its a pretty 1-sided match-up. Ganon has to play really patiently and defensively waiting for openings . Jiggs can easily wall of pain you, and with good spacing Ganon can't punish or do anything about her aerials. I actually was 2-2 against the Jiggly and I went to Delfino for the last match where the Jiggs just ran out the time on me the last stock. Jiggly air camping>>Ganondorf.

That guy sounds like a ****

______________________


6:4 Jiggly

Jiggly's air game is stellar, but its not impossible to get through. Ganon can out space Jiggly but due to her aerial movement speed its reaaaalllly difficult to space anything properly. and what DLA said about the 1 Ganon hit = 3-4 Jigg's hits.. It should only take Ganon about 5 hits to kill a jiggs anyway...

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

I've played countless Ganons and I have recently picked up Ganon as a secondary.

I run this matchup in my sleep, if you will. Also, i'd like to brawl some new Ganons this week if anyone can tolerate some wifi.
__________________________________________
Ganon is slow, heavy, strong, and pretty grounded. Ganon's terrible aireal mobility means that it's not smart for him to approach Jigglypuff in the air. However his u-air packs a punch (or a kick rather), so if Puff floats within range (above Ganon) a good choice would be to auto-cancel one and possibly follow up with another. If Jigglypuff gets too close, you can't easily defend against an oncoming frenzy of b-airs, n-airs, and other overwhelming aireal attacks. The best thing you can do is shield grab or jab. Grabbing is one of Ganon's best options against Jigglypuff because there are, believe it or not, quite a few follow-ups. Above Ganon is a dangerous spot for Jigglypuff to be against almost every character.

Flame choke (or "Gerudo" as it's called here I assume) is another great option because following it with a jab on Jigglypuff is a garuenteed combo. Stay at bay and wait for an oppertunity to lash out. It also could land you one of your kill moves such as f-smash, d-smash, u-smash, or d-air if you follow it correctly. Will a Ganon try to gimp a Jigglypuff's recovery? It makes a Puff feel pretty stupid if you spike them. Hug the ledge, and stay close to it, because you don't want to grab it with the end of your recovery move; this is any easy edge hog for Puff. Use b-air, the back of u-air, and d-air before dark diving back onto the stage.

PAFF TIEM

Jigglypuff is fast in the air, aireal, and light. You're biggest threat is his plethera of kill moves. You're large advantage is you're air camping ability, it's very difficult for a Ganon to counter. Once again, danger lies above. Jigglypuff can often pull off consecutive u-airs and u-tilts on Ganon because of his slow response time to threats from below. You can rack up damage fast on him, but he could equal that with a mere four attacks.

When gimping his recovery, n-air isnt always the best option because his dark dive has more priority than your sour spot. Stick with f-airs and b-airs and the occational n-air (sweet spot only). Hog the edge often, you may also steal it from him when hes gimping you. Best of all, duck under his wiz-kick and rest as he passes over you. If you tries an arieal wiz-kick, you could even rest through that!

I can safely say the ratio is 60:40 in Puff's favor.

i.e. Ganon can kill insanely early, but landing those moves can be a struggle with all the air-camping.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Jigglypuff has all the tools she needs to avoid getting hit. This match-up gets highly underrated by a lot of Ganon players. It may seem simple on paper, but it truly isn't.

 

[PK-ow!]

Oh, and if you ever think you're going to be clever and land a risky move,


DON'T ****ING DO IT



It's not worth it even if you hit.


*only* Aerial Wizkick, if Jiggs will be killed by it *and yet* isn't in killing range of other things. And you don't just mix this in. It has to be a 100% mindrape moment, that or Jiggs' momentum and position are such that, if It isn't hit, It will be somewhere too vertically far from you to punish.


Weak hit of Uair is rly bad here, seems to give Jiggs just what It wants.

Someone check my thinking on BAir: It can't hit Jiggs without actually moving your first into Jiggs' FAir or whatever, and the range is cutting it so close that Jiggs' air mobility is definitely going to give It the spacing every time.
And yet, you're gonna need BAir, 'cause you might as well make that trade if you can.


NAir just keeps the opponent honest. Stops stupid stuff, but then once you've established you know what it does, don't do anything else with it.

EDIT: and how about saving ftilt or Dash Attack for a kill?
Guess it might depend on stage, somewhat.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Oh, and if you ever think you're going to be clever and land a risky move,


DON'T ****ING DO IT



It's not worth it even if you hit.


*only* Aerial Wizkick, if Jiggs will be killed by it *and yet* isn't in killing range of other things. And you don't just mix this in. It has to be a 100% mindrape moment, that or Jiggs' momentum and position are such that, if It isn't hit, It will be somewhere too vertically far from you to punish.


Weak hit of Uair is rly bad here, seems to give Jiggs just what It wants.

Someone check my thinking on BAir: It can't hit Jiggs without actually moving your first into Jiggs' FAir or whatever, and the range is cutting it so close that Jiggs' air mobility is definitely going to give It the spacing every time.
And yet, you're gonna need BAir, 'cause you might as well make that trade if you can.


NAir just keeps the opponent honest. Stops stupid stuff, but then once you've established you know what it does, don't do anything else with it.

EDIT: and how about saving ftilt or Dash Attack for a kill?
Guess it might depend on stage, somewhat.

I find it dumb how Ganon is not one of the few heavies that cancels momentum with such ease. The characters i'm refering to are Link, Snake, DeDeDe, etc. I'm not saying hes easy to kill with rest, i'm saying that a more practical kill % would be 90 or on some stages 85.

The "DI freaks" live around 100% against rest, sadly, Ganon doesnt.

Also, b-air isn't a bad choice. It's range may not be incredible, but it's quick and it packs a punch. You can land it on Puff in situations.

Also, very true what you said about rest. Very risky, but I was just naming two common setups.
Just assume that if you miss with rest at 0% Ganon will destroy you.

 

[TP]

Do some thunderstorming and let Jiggs poke you for the attempts. Then do a full hop Dair and they will fly right into the highest priority part of the move and get stomped. A great mindgame for this matchup.

Choke is amazing if you land it, since Jiggs has crap rolls, but it won't be easy to land one at all. I was playing a Jiggs once in tourney and got the first kill thanks to Choke>Fsmash. Then he said "Oh yeah, it's Ganon" and I couldn't land another choke for the entire match... or get another kill. If Choke isn't working don't go for it. Stick to Uair and Dair, and keep to the center of the stage at all times.

 

[Z1GMA]

I did one cool thing the other day:

If the Jiggly-player is stupid enough, and if both players have like 30% damage, you can throw out a WP just anywere near Jiggly.
The Jiggly (If stupid, remember?) will then Rest you - only to eat a Reverse WP as Ganon comes down from the sky again.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

I did one cool thing the other day:

If the Jiggly-player is stupid enough, and if both players have like 30% damage, you can throw out a WP just anywere near Jiggly.
The Jiggly (If stupid, remember?) will then Rest you - only to eat a Reverse WP as Ganon comes down from the sky again.

...Why on earth would that happen?

 

[adumbrodeus]

...Why on earth would that happen?

Mindgamed to hell?


One of those ridiculously situational tricks that means little in the grand scheme of things.

 

[9Kplus1]

If Jiggs lands, keep her on the ground. I don't care how you do it, just keep the blob out of the air and you'll be fine. We have a ****ty ground game, from short ranged, underpowered tilts to our crappy spotdodge. The only moves that you should watch out for on the ground are our Utilt, Usmash and grab. Fsmash can kill at decent %s, but it's stupid slow and pretty easy to punish if it misses. Plus, we die at like -20%

 

[thexsunrosered]

...Why on earth would that happen?

>.>
I'm actually quite glad that he posted that, it's good to know.

Really?! Like, usefully, or just technically?

I use BAir a lot and probably screw around with Marth in the Waiting Room the second-greatest amount of time after Falcon. I haven't cancelled BAir. I've used BAir, finished it in the air, and landed without landing lag, but ... there's time in there to be hit.

Am I overestimating the lag I feel? Feels pretty laggy.

lol you can SH Bair-> Fair or Uair, so I'm pretty sure lag isn't a factor

 

[thexsunrosered]

I'm pretty sure every one of my double posts have had to do with a quote from PK >.>

 

[Z1GMA]

...Why on earth would that happen?

...Why on earth would you even bother asking?
I mentioned the Jiggly must be stupid, twice, didn't I?

Never take a post seriously if it has the word 'Warlock Punch' in it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

...Why on earth would you even bother asking?
I mentioned the Jiggly must be stupid, twice, didn't I?

Never take a post seriously if it has the word 'Warlock Punch' in it.

But every post should have "warlock punch" in it.

 

[teluoborg]

Never take a post seriously if it has the word 'Warlock Punch' in it.

+

But every post should have "warlock punch" in it.

=
One should never take a post seriously.



Else pound is Ganon's loss, I don't think he can deal with this move.

 

[smashkng]

...Why on earth would you even bother asking?
I mentioned the Jiggly must be stupid, twice, didn't I?

Never take a post seriously if it has the word 'Warlock Punch' in it.

Except when the opponents breaks their shield or Jigglypuff misses its Rest.

 

[Z1GMA]

Except when the opponents breaks their shield or Jigglypuff misses its Rest.

You don't Warlock Punch Jiggly when it breaks its shield - you watch it Star-KO itself.

A good Jiggly-player don't use Rest if there's a chance they might get punished.

 

[Noobicidal]

Else pound is Ganon's loss, I don't think he can deal with this move.

He could possibly Gerudo a grounded Pound due to grab armor..?

Jokes aside, Jiggs is hell for Ganon. She can combo him with Uair and Utilt until around 35%, predict the air dodge, and Dair Ganon out of the remaining frames for up to an additional 6-12%. Pound is an incredible approach tool due to its lingering hitbox, flexibility, and being safe on block (unless the Jiggs goes for a falling Pound to grab or Ftilt depending on shield damage), and if poweshielded, Jiggs can bair before landing and possibly hit Ganon if he drops his shield. Bair is Puff's main damage racker, and based on staleness, can actually combo Ganon offstage (WoP). If Jiggs is grabbed in Ganon's Dark Dive, she can Fair or Nair -> footstool to kill Ganon. If Ganon gets off the ground at all, he's ****ed (pardon my French).

Ganon does have some redeeming qualities in the match up, such as every option out of Gerudo on Puff, and she's easily tech-chased due to her roll length and slow GUA. Be wary though; Puff can false buffer rolls due to her air speed before hitting the ground (i.e. holding right, then moving left when given the roll options). With proper DI, Puff's not living past 7 hits (though I've personally lived to over 140% in this match-up). Ganon's only useful tool to out-range Puff is Uair, though Pound will "clank", but injure both parties. Spiking Jiggs is incredibly risky: She can die from it as soon as 20% or so (even with all five jumps), but if you miss or fail to predict her massively flexible recovery and ledge grab range, you'll end up getting gimped or stage spiked.

Jiggs is a simple, yet highly unpredictable character.


65:35 Puff/Ganon

Edit: Kalm, it's "Jigglypuff", not "Jiggylpuff".

 

[Superspright]

Yeah, a good Jiggs is NOT fun to play against. You will probably not get a substantial hit beside maybe your uair. Forget grabs. Gerudo is possible, but you have to catch her when she is just about to land. That dead zone is your best bet.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Edit: Kalm, it's "Jigglypuff", not "Jiggylpuff".

Oh, that was my mistake.

 

[Anaky]

Discuss
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260646

 

[PK-ow!]

I'm pretty sure every one of my double posts have had to do with a quote from PK >.>

Spoiler

*~*~*~
Yeah seriously, Pound is like... everything Jiggs does is just a way to position a Pound. You can't do anything to pound. It's shield damage, it's unbeatable in priority, and Ganon's timing can't do anything to it on a spot dodge, roll, or SHAD (especially not SHAD).
I guess you'd need some of that full hop DAir TP mentioned. I can stand by that.

 

[Divilenta]

Discuss
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260646

That thread speaks the truth.

 

[Noobicidal]

Oh, that was my mistake.

But the title is still misleading!

;_;

 

[Ray_Kalm]

But the title is still misleading!

;_;

Still my mistake.

 

[thexsunrosered]

Still my mistake.

lmao still there

 

[Bahamut777]

Jiggz? Enjoy your Shield Break>WoP. =]

BTW, if sweetspoted AND timed right, USmash outprioritizes Pound. Altho' I would stick with back rolling early enough. =/

60/40 due to Jiggz paper-like weight, absolutely easy to kill.


oh. BTW. Jiggz around here seem to have a urge to roll away from you after a Gerudo. Not another option, aside (o' course), of a GU Attack to attempt a counter mindgame. You can try to Chain Choke about 5~8 times with easy prediction. Then you Salmon Smash them to the death.
^-This refers to non-Jiggly mainers, but good with her anyway. Didn't tested with a pro Jiggly and doubt it will ever work with someone smart enought. Just pointing out.

 

[Z1GMA]

30 : 70

 

[BigPapaSmurf]

flame choke beats rollout, if the jiggly uses that

 

[Fuujin]

I don't inform most people of this,
but almost every character has a aerial that easily cancels Din's out.
For Ganondorf it's just U air.
So you don't have to worry about air dodging/rolling.
Also very random.