Bahamut777
Smash Ace
Well... Power Shield lasers at insane speed to force an idiot and punishable approach usually works to me :V
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"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.
- Thread starter Ray_Kalm
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A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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Fox can't really do anything against edgecamping.
Fox also really can't kill you at all without taking a noticeable risk. His KO moves are so unsafe that even Ganondorf can easily shieldgrab them most of the time. As long as you are conservative, he has to take a huge risk to get a kill. His grab reward is nothing special, and his lasers don't stop you from controlling space against him.
That is why this matchup is not horrible.
80/20 is the difficulty of Samus. This matchup is clearly much easier than Samus.
Zhouten
Smash Apprentice
Hmm.... haven't played in so long, I don't really know what to say about the matchup but... I remember Ganon Vs Fox was one of my most difficult matchups. Maybe I just didn't know how to play against a Fox, but I always had a horrible time against them, probably in my top 10 worst.
PK-ow!
Smash Lord
Shine kills?
His dtilt is a K.O. move in this matchup.
And BAir? I don't see you shieldgrabbing that.
Let's not discount damage racking. Even if Fox has to take a risk to kill, he doesn't have to take a risk to deal damage. Between lasers, uptilt, and simple mobility, why should Fox ever let Ganon swing at him? So then it's just a question of Can Fox kill you before you can deal your 80% and kill him?
Clai
Smash Lord
We need to focus on Z1gma's question more than anything, because we should all know that Fox's approaches are all unsafe and Fox's fall speed makes him prime for getting destroyed by Ganon's comboes. In my opinion, the only thing that's preventing this matchup from being in Ganondorf's advantage is the Fox player camping Ganon until the Ganon player gets too reckless and lets the Fox player get the easy damage/kills.
Fox has great horizontal ground movement, great vertical aerial movement, and Phantasm (used correctly) gives him great horizontal aerial movement as well. Fox does have shine stalling, but if Ganon can bait it, he can easily use whichever move is the most appropriate to punish it. Fox does have several moves that can push opponents away from him (d-smash, jab set-ups, etc), but seeing as Ganon have a remarkable range advantage, Fox would not want to get into any situation that requires a GTFO move. He's going to want to control the pace of the battle with laser camping and quick damage racks.
Likely the best defense against an all-out camper is to threaten to DQ the player if he does NOTHING but laser/ledge camp us. Of course you can only do this is it's becoming increasingly obvious that the Fox player's only motive is to run out of the clock, but it's an effective weapon nonetheless. Basically, it comes down to which player chickens out and rushes for the kill first, because both characters have the ability to expose the other one's weaknesses and get in huge amounts of damage/ easy kills. In terms of gimping ability, neither character has a distinct off-stage advantage that would decide a match.
If you want to reverse the table and camp back, there's no way that Fox is going to do anything to a Ganon that knows how to plank the ledge. He simply does not have the tools to combat that.
Fox has great horizontal ground movement, great vertical aerial movement, and Phantasm (used correctly) gives him great horizontal aerial movement as well. Fox does have shine stalling, but if Ganon can bait it, he can easily use whichever move is the most appropriate to punish it. Fox does have several moves that can push opponents away from him (d-smash, jab set-ups, etc), but seeing as Ganon have a remarkable range advantage, Fox would not want to get into any situation that requires a GTFO move. He's going to want to control the pace of the battle with laser camping and quick damage racks.
Likely the best defense against an all-out camper is to threaten to DQ the player if he does NOTHING but laser/ledge camp us. Of course you can only do this is it's becoming increasingly obvious that the Fox player's only motive is to run out of the clock, but it's an effective weapon nonetheless. Basically, it comes down to which player chickens out and rushes for the kill first, because both characters have the ability to expose the other one's weaknesses and get in huge amounts of damage/ easy kills. In terms of gimping ability, neither character has a distinct off-stage advantage that would decide a match.
If you want to reverse the table and camp back, there's no way that Fox is going to do anything to a Ganon that knows how to plank the ledge. He simply does not have the tools to combat that.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Honestly... learn the timing to powershield the lasers, you get more then enough warning, if you can do it consistently you really don't have to approach.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
You can't powershield each and every one of them.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Why not?
This is brawl, powershielding is easy, honestly, this is one area where our community is maddd lazy, if people can j-shine infinite where basically any period of time, if people can drill-shine, then people can powershield lasers in brawl consistently. It's all a matter of practice practice practice.
Currently working on it in melee, so don't complain.
Magus does it pretty consistently in melee without any tools, and the timing in melee is a lot harder.
Honestly, it's just a matter of precise timing, it doesn't require particularly fast inputs (it's not input every other frame like JC shine) and you get that sort of timing by practicing till you've got it down. Lasers take plenty of time to reach you so you've got a lot of warning.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
The difference between the distance of each laser is very small. Powershielding has start-up and ending frame. From what I remember, it has a 2 frame start-up and 2 frame ending lag. I know for sure that the distance between each laser is about 2 in frames.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
IIRC that's from the back of the laser's hitbox to the next one, active frames after it hits are irrelevant.
Ehhh, I'll frame data it at same point, (tonight if I get a chance), but I'm pretty sure it both possible and humanly possible.
I have to agree powershielding is not used enough, but i also have to say that its just silly to think you can PS all of foxes lasers...
why not just jump... or just run at him, eat a couple %'s then DA him... Foxes lasers seem to almost hurt fox more then Ganon... if you stay close enough, he can only do SH lasers, and those dont scare me.
why not just jump... or just run at him, eat a couple %'s then DA him... Foxes lasers seem to almost hurt fox more then Ganon... if you stay close enough, he can only do SH lasers, and those dont scare me.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Honestly, I'm mainly playing melee these days after the time I put into getting my drill-shining consistent, well I basically laugh at something being "too hard", and I think that consistent powershielding for moves that it's possible (see: a lot of projectiles for one thing) will majorly change the metagame.
That said, it might not even be necessary, unless he's ground lasering, even done optimally, I believe the laser damage to shield is low enough that normal shielding will suffice as long as you drop during the lulls.
Honestly, fox's lasers are only good at building percent at range, and if a consistent way around that is confirmed they become useless.
They've got a zone where they're totally unsafe to use and depending how their various hitboxes interact, Ganondorf might option-select fox on shorthop, though that would need testing.
TP
Smash Master
Guys, play better Foxes. A good Fox won't get shieldgrabbed because they always wear down your shield and then sheildstab you. Ganon's craptastic shield can't hold up to the constant pressure an aggressive Fox puts on it. I honestly think this matchup is harder than the Falco matchup, and I know people who agree with me. Fox is one of the very few matchups where I actually feel like I have no options.
Clai
Smash Lord
When you're going up against aggressive characters, heck against most characters in general, shielding should be your last option and only if you get zoned hard by the Fox player. If Fox is trying to break you down, you have to do everything in your power to ward off his continuous attempts to wear you down. Considering how slow our character is, going up against a character that's fast is intimidating, but as long as your mind is focused on what Fox is doing, you can stand up to the pressure.Guys, play better Foxes. A good Fox won't get shieldgrabbed because they always wear down your shield and then sheildstab you. Ganon's craptastic shield can't hold up to the constant pressure an aggressive Fox puts on it. I honestly think this matchup is harder than the Falco matchup, and I know people who agree with me. Fox is one of the very few matchups where I actually feel like I have no options.
Falco's lasers >>>>>> Fox's entire moveset
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
This match-up isn't that bad with proper spacing, luring and mindgames. I'd say it's around 35-65.
A2ZOMG
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I play a good Fox quite a bit actually...it's not that horrible. Mainly because Fox himself is not very impressive.Guys, play better Foxes. A good Fox won't get shieldgrabbed because they always wear down your shield and then sheildstab you. Ganon's craptastic shield can't hold up to the constant pressure an aggressive Fox puts on it. I honestly think this matchup is harder than the Falco matchup, and I know people who agree with me. Fox is one of the very few matchups where I actually feel like I have no options.
Fox CAN'T be aggressive. That gets him shieldgrabbed. This is one of few matchups where shieldgrabbing is really good for Ganon because you can just wait for him to approach and he easily gets shieldgrabbed. He can't do a kill move without risking getting shieldgrabbed in general because of his fail safety and defensive options in general, so generally just learn to zone him extremely patiently.
Either way, the Falco matchup is also overrated in Falco's favor, even though it's definitely worse
PK-Ow, Shinespiking is risky and can get U-aired if he doesn't time it PERFECTLY.
It's surprisingly easy to just hog Ganon whenever he performs a Ledgedropped Aerial.
Bahamut777
Smash Ace
I think Fox's recovery can be easily gimped and spiked if not used correctly. Can't secure that, tho'. Don't play good Foxes.
Also, due to Fox's lack of shieldpushing attacks, shield grab IS our best option to punishing him, but it WILL get weak once our shield is over, which isn't hard due to Fox's drill, shine and utilt, whose can pack up a good shield damage.
Besides, Fox can only relly on USmash to kill and FSmash in some cases. DSmash CAN and MUST be DIed UP so we can survive certain death. UAir does gime ve trouble due to it's second hit, which is very powerfull and can Star KO, even with our heavy weight and sided DI and DownB.
About the lasers, the time to powershield them is the exact timing of the pew pew sound of the gun. If you can get used to it, it's not a big deal. Besides, that gun doesn't hurts your shield that much to the point of you wanting to powershield every single shot. You CAN miss some shots restfull. Besides, it's lack of hitstun just give us openings do DA the camping opponent... The % we get? Scr** it!
Our options are: Shieldgrabing and throwing offstage so we can gimp and spike or just wait him to lag (?) with some move and kick him on da face!
Also, due to Fox's lack of shieldpushing attacks, shield grab IS our best option to punishing him, but it WILL get weak once our shield is over, which isn't hard due to Fox's drill, shine and utilt, whose can pack up a good shield damage.
Besides, Fox can only relly on USmash to kill and FSmash in some cases. DSmash CAN and MUST be DIed UP so we can survive certain death. UAir does gime ve trouble due to it's second hit, which is very powerfull and can Star KO, even with our heavy weight and sided DI and DownB.
About the lasers, the time to powershield them is the exact timing of the pew pew sound of the gun. If you can get used to it, it's not a big deal. Besides, that gun doesn't hurts your shield that much to the point of you wanting to powershield every single shot. You CAN miss some shots restfull. Besides, it's lack of hitstun just give us openings do DA the camping opponent... The % we get? Scr** it!
Our options are: Shieldgrabing and throwing offstage so we can gimp and spike or just wait him to lag (?) with some move and kick him on da face!
Clai
Smash Lord
Ledgedropped aerials, you mean from when Ganondorf grabs the ledge, drops and then DJ aerials? If I sound condescending, I'm sorry, but how exactly is it easy to hog Ganon after he performs an aerial like that? You do know about Ganon's ledgeplanking, right, because it is really freaking good, I don't think any opponent can get to Ganon after shielding his U-air, there's not enough time.
Well I'm almost positive a MK could powershield and edgehog, or Nair stage spike... why are we even talking about ganon ledge planking.. lets leave that garbage to the tier ho's...
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Moving on. Yoshi.
Bahamut777
Smash Ace
Well... I DO play a pretty AWSM Yoshi... and that dam* lizard-thing gives me trouble... a lot.
A good used Yoshi CAN and WILL juggle you with UAir, NAir, BAir (near the edge) and give your shield a good lot of trouble because of that broken DAir... His overall aerial mobility (thanks to natual frame data and Dragon Reverse) and game can overcome Ganon's easily. Our best option there is definately UAir, which covers a good angle and hits Yoshi during hit BAir and NAir, even if it hits you. I didn't tested other aerials efficiently. DAir can cover us from UAir if we manage to hit first, tho' it's very hard to do...
The ground can be ours if we watch out for Yoshi's pivot grab which haves a decent range and sets up for very good juggling. UTilt as well can give us some trouble, but we can shield it and due to it's shield push, after 2 of them, we're safe. Dash Attack can also be bothersome due to it's low ending lag (thus juggling us with UTilts), but it can clash with Ganon's Jab, FTilt and DTilt at the sole of the boot. FSmash and DSmash overcomes it... Our range on the ground are almost the same as Yoshi's, but our priority gives us the upper hand. Yoshi can't kill us onstage except for a fresh FSmash or fresh USmash, whose we can break with FTilt (both).
Offstage games are our killing chances. Yoshi's second jump IS very high and have heavy armor frames at the start. But it's still a jump, so Tipman kills it and gives us a stock. DAir works pretty well if full hopped and merciless done during the jump, not the descending ('coz Yoshi's jump will end when we're still jumping and he's on ground when we're falling... dunno how to explain well... =/). Yoshi can eat our recovery as well with BAir's Tipman like propriety, but due to it's lag it makes hard to Yoshi's recovery (not impossible...) and as well spike us with FAir (pretty ahrd to do, I think).
Packing it up: don't hold your shield, don't abuse unsafe aerials, don't try to spike it if it still got it's second jump (you'll get super armored!). Everything else is fine! =D
I give Yoshi a low advantage due to it's juggling game on us. Nothin more.
55:45
A good used Yoshi CAN and WILL juggle you with UAir, NAir, BAir (near the edge) and give your shield a good lot of trouble because of that broken DAir... His overall aerial mobility (thanks to natual frame data and Dragon Reverse) and game can overcome Ganon's easily. Our best option there is definately UAir, which covers a good angle and hits Yoshi during hit BAir and NAir, even if it hits you. I didn't tested other aerials efficiently. DAir can cover us from UAir if we manage to hit first, tho' it's very hard to do...
The ground can be ours if we watch out for Yoshi's pivot grab which haves a decent range and sets up for very good juggling. UTilt as well can give us some trouble, but we can shield it and due to it's shield push, after 2 of them, we're safe. Dash Attack can also be bothersome due to it's low ending lag (thus juggling us with UTilts), but it can clash with Ganon's Jab, FTilt and DTilt at the sole of the boot. FSmash and DSmash overcomes it... Our range on the ground are almost the same as Yoshi's, but our priority gives us the upper hand. Yoshi can't kill us onstage except for a fresh FSmash or fresh USmash, whose we can break with FTilt (both).
Offstage games are our killing chances. Yoshi's second jump IS very high and have heavy armor frames at the start. But it's still a jump, so Tipman kills it and gives us a stock. DAir works pretty well if full hopped and merciless done during the jump, not the descending ('coz Yoshi's jump will end when we're still jumping and he's on ground when we're falling... dunno how to explain well... =/). Yoshi can eat our recovery as well with BAir's Tipman like propriety, but due to it's lag it makes hard to Yoshi's recovery (not impossible...) and as well spike us with FAir (pretty ahrd to do, I think).
Packing it up: don't hold your shield, don't abuse unsafe aerials, don't try to spike it if it still got it's second jump (you'll get super armored!). Everything else is fine! =D
I give Yoshi a low advantage due to it's juggling game on us. Nothin more.
55:45
Wingy
Smash Rookie
Welll.... I wouldn't take all of my opinion as fact (I'm not exactly the most experienced of Yoshi players...) but it seems spacing is pretty key for Ganon in this one. His long legs often give me trouble. If you could bait a Yoshi into fighting aggressively against you (I often do) you can outspace him/her with tilts, I think.
His upair comes out deceptively fast and I think it breaks our super armor at low percents, which could lead to easy gimp kills on Yoshis that don't pick up on it.
Then again, I haven't played very many Ganons to begin with.
Any better Yoshi feel free to dismantle this, but it's just my two cents.
Edit: Reading above poster's post, I don't often see Yoshi's using dair on-stage for much, if you're talking about that. Too much landing lag if not auto-cancelled, leaving us wide open for a jab. So in my opinion, a defensive Ganon is best for this, but I don't have a Ganon's standpoint on it, except for well, Bahamut777.
His upair comes out deceptively fast and I think it breaks our super armor at low percents, which could lead to easy gimp kills on Yoshis that don't pick up on it.
Then again, I haven't played very many Ganons to begin with.
Any better Yoshi feel free to dismantle this, but it's just my two cents.
Edit: Reading above poster's post, I don't often see Yoshi's using dair on-stage for much, if you're talking about that. Too much landing lag if not auto-cancelled, leaving us wide open for a jab. So in my opinion, a defensive Ganon is best for this, but I don't have a Ganon's standpoint on it, except for well, Bahamut777.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Good so far...
I'm probably gonna be off on some things seeing as how I don't play this much, but...
Yoshi wins hard. We can camp you with eggs cuz Ganon is slow, so you have to approach. Except, Ganon can't approach since we can pivot grab most anything. We can also just run away to further the camping and add on damage.
Once we get a grab, we can CG you across the stage very easily, and then force you offstage into a bad spot. You can DI away and uair to block the spike, but we have a guaranteed Egg Lay. Either way, all we have to do is chase you offstage from a GR and edgeguard.
Ganon can't really gimp Yoshi due to slow speed in general. All we have to do is DJAD past any attempts and we're home free.
All Yoshi has to do is play defensively and Ganon has very little chance of winning. The more offensive the Yoshi plays, the closer to even the MU gets.
A2ZOMG
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If you can powershield his eggs and be REALLY patient about not getting pivot grabbed...you might be fine. Except Yoshi can actually afford to shieldgrab Ganondorf because Ganondorf fails on shields in general. And his spotdodge is pretty gay for Ganon to deal with.
Bahamut777
Smash Ace
I didn't even mentioned the Egg Camp 'coz it's, IMO, the easiest camp to poweshield constantly. It's a virtue of Ganon players to have endless patience and don't get agressive unless we REALLY need to. Other players tends to lose patience earlier...
Egg Lay can be solved with enought button mashing. Not a problem to me... :V
The Yoshi player I'm used to play (Zero, if you're asking... dunno if he's active on the Yoshi boards) doesn't abuse of CG, so I can't cover it properly but I think that our UAir, once we're offstage, gets Yoshi off of our draft and lets us return to the game.
According to your last point, this is a battle between both players' patience. The one that gets aggressive first tends to lose the match.
Noobicidal
Smash Master
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Yoshi is gay.
25 : 75
25 : 75 lol Z1GMA
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
You can sit there power shielding all day, I really don't care. I'm patient enough to just have you sit there and powershield until the time runs out. =P
Just pointing it out. We can still just follow you down low since you release far under the ledge.
Yes. But we can just bait it and it's an easy edgehog. =P
According to your last point, this is a battle between both players' patience. The one that gets aggressive first tends to lose the match.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but Yoshi can play a safer offensive game against Ganon, so it's still our advantage. :D
Lol Noob, remember those matches were you used Yoshi against my Ganon? Freaking impossible. >_<
Zhouten
Smash Apprentice
Lol, I agree. One of my worst matchups, 20:80 or 25:75 for me. His aerials beat all of ours. Ganons best moves are his aerials and all Yoshi does is attack in the air. It's like Meta Knight without wings and slower, but stronger, and has a frustrating CG.Yoshi is gay.
lol Z1GMA
A2ZOMG
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I don't think you guys N-air enough if his aerials are always beating yours.
Honestly though, tell me how you don't get shieldgrabbed... Ganon's frame advantages are horrible, you can't poke Yoshi's shield, which works a LOT in Yoshi's favor since grabbing is almost never viable for Ganon.
Honestly though, tell me how you don't get shieldgrabbed... Ganon's frame advantages are horrible, you can't poke Yoshi's shield, which works a LOT in Yoshi's favor since grabbing is almost never viable for Ganon.
thexsunrosered
Smash Lord
This is one of maybe four matchups that I 90% of the time go for sheik or falco or Ike. There is really nothing we can do. I never ever feel that way in any other matchup, even DDD. There is literally not a single effective thing we can do; besides the fact that we'll hardly be able to get near him, his weight makes him hard as hell to kill. If we get grabbed it's lights out, he can GR us to the end of the stage to a guaranteed spike. If you are going to try it against him, ALWAYS ban Distant Planet against him, he'll just sit on that little corner and egg camp till you come by and then walk of CG you. If Distant Planet isn't legal, the ban Castle Siege for the same reason. Don't play this matchup, really :/
I know I'm not an official panelist, but I say
Ganon 20:80 Yoshi
maybe even Fifteen :/
I know I'm not an official panelist, but I say
Ganon 20:80 Yoshi
maybe even Fifteen :/
Noobicidal
Smash Master
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Guaranteed gimp based on prediction, possibly, but not a guaranteed spike.
Breezy
Smash Ace
I say 85:15 us because Yoshi can be footstooled out of his second jump for a kill at stage level <___<
Wingy
Smash Rookie
Wait wait wait, what? Sure, it's possible, but I don't think one slight advantage (that pretty much any character can do) makes this matchup Ganon-favorable, especially since we have more aerial mobility than Ganon, making it much harder for a footstool. Really, I'd like to see a Ganon win a match against a semi-decent Yoshi through footstooling.
~Firefly~
Smash Hero
That was sarcasm. V.V
But yeah, Yoshi has a very easy time with Ganon. If he plays a solid defensive game, there really isn't anything Ganon can do. That being said, if Yoshi doesn't understand the match-up and underestimates Ganon, you guys can inflict some serious pain on us. If we screw up, it's gonna hurt a lot, but as long as we don't, Ganon is screwed. All we have to do is slow down, take our time, and play cautiously, and Yoshi will win.
Bahamut777
Smash Ace
Erm... why don't people around here, instead of saying random numbers and obvious information, discuss about the character's options to get advantage or not, stages to use as coutnerpicks and ATs that can be usefull?
smashkng
Smash Lord
Like most matchups, Ganon's matchups are far from impossible against lots of characters if they don't play defensive but play offensive (though he still lose to lots of characters due to his really poor recovery). Ganon beats Yoshi if Yoshi plays offensive, which he shouldn't, but what Ganon gets ***** by is the defensive play.That was sarcasm. V.V
But yeah, Yoshi has a very easy time with Ganon. If he plays a solid defensive game, there really isn't anything Ganon can do. That being said, if Yoshi doesn't understand the match-up and underestimates Ganon, you guys can inflict some serious pain on us. If we screw up, it's gonna hurt a lot, but as long as we don't, Ganon is screwed. All we have to do is slow down, take our time, and play cautiously, and Yoshi will win.
And hasn't Yoshi probably an even worse Oos than Ganon?
Clai
Smash Lord
^^^^This.
I can't really give an opinion of this matchup because I've never played Yoshi with Ganon ever, but if we want to improve this matchup, we need to know what we can do against Yoshi so we can avoid getting grabbed. Considering how easy it is to powershield Yoshi's eggs, there's no reason we can't play defensively as well. I'm not sure what outspaces Yoshi's Bair, that'd likely be the first step.