"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[GeneralWoodman]

Kalm gets scared when i start dash dancing xd

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I didn't know you had the ability to read peoples feelings through wifi.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

well when your 120 on the last stock and im jumping around your shield like a mofo, you can't deny it XD
YOU WUZ SCURRED! :0

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Oh, you're right. I should have dropped my shield and have had done something else. Obviously, rolling towards you would have been a much better option.

 

[Superspright]

The first hit of nair cancels it too I believe.

 

[Moblin]

lol


you guys are hilarious

 

[Yink]

Hello Ganons~ Ness boards are discussing Ness vs. Ganon and I'd really love it if you guys gave some input. Here's the thread:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260964

Thanks a lot guys.

 

[Uffe]

Yeah, Gdorf's! Go to that link there and let's have a discussion!

 

[pulse131]

link vs ganon is no worse then 60-40

 

[Ray_Kalm]

link vs ganon is no worse then 60-40

Why do you think so?

 

[A2ZOMG]

link vs ganon is no worse then 60-40

Yeah, if the Link sucks.

Okay yeah, Ganon can gimp Link easily if he gets Link offstage. Keyword is IF he gets Link offstage, and as long as Link avoids Ganon's F-tilt (or for that matter tether saves against it), that is going to be more of a chore for Ganon than he wants. The problem is Link can shieldgrab Ganon out of EVERYTHING. And besides that, he has a gdlk spotdodge for avoiding stuff that is not supposed to be shielded. Specifically Flame Choke and dashgrabs. While Link's closeup options are pretty slow, his spotdodge picks up some of the slack. Eating a D-smash for whiffing Flame Choke is not cool for Ganon.

Besides getting randomly gimped by U-airs if he is sent offstage, Link easily counters Ganon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

We're moving on.

/Someone go inform the Kirby boards.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Kirby is lame, tedious, and obviously bad for Ganon.

Probably the most frustrating thing about the matchup is the fact he can DUCK UNDER YOUR SHIELDGRAB (and Jab, F-tilt, normal angled F-smash, aaand I guess your aerials as well). So...his D-tilt is a ***** for Ganon.

His aerial approach can be countered...sorta, since you have more range, and he relies a lot on fairly linear B-air spacing to get the job done. If you can, powershield -> dashgrab that, and I do think dashgrab can get him if he ducks.

He's a fairly easy target offstage especially when recovering low (spike him out of that Up-B lol). But...you're an even easier target for his D-air.

Sooooo, idk, he doesn't really run circles around Ganon, and he doesn't exactly control Ganon too heavily, but there is a lot you can't do to him, and when he DOES get control, it sucks.

65/45 to 7/3 Kirby's favor.

 

[Clai]

Ganon shouldn't be even trying to shieldgrab Kirby anyway, so his crouch isn't really a major issue.

Now, I had played as Kirby alongside Ganon for about a year before I simply gave him up (Kirby, obviously). The main reason for this is that Kirby isn't mobile enough to accomplish much. Of course any character looks mobile when compared to Ganondorf, but Kirby's limited mobility allows Ganondorf to play a war of attrition when it comes to one character approaching another.

Kirby's game is to get inside the opponent and destroy him, and with a variety of grab comboes, tilts, and powerful smashes, Kirby can accomplish this pretty well if he can get inside. Ganondorf's game is to keep Kirby from residing in tilt range, but Kirby's height makes this a little challenging.

Kirby's best attack is his Bair, and he's going to use it often. It has incredible horizontal spacing, and he can DJ out of a SH bair, so he doesn't have to make a commitment of it at all. Outside of his Bair, though, Kirby's aerials are lackluster for spacing, so learn the spacing of Bair, learn when to challenge it and learn when to just shield/roll away from it, and the spacing battle is set.

When Kirby is inside and attempts to combo you, retreat to the edge and ledgecamp him. Outside of low-angled F-smash, Kirby can't really threaten Ganodorf on the ledge, so this is critical, because Kirby can set up great amounts of damage or go for the kill with F-smash/hammer on prediction as Ganondorf can't really do anything to stop Kirby from utilt strings/dthrow chases, etc.

As I said, the key to winning this battle is to dictate the pace of the battle and don't let Kirby get inside you. All of Ganondorf's aerials can be utilized in this battle, but don't attempt to approach with Thunderstorms because Kirby can Utilt you out of it. Kirby is rediculously easy to kill because of how light he is, and from what I've heard, Kirby is a relatively easy character to chainchoke. Finally, no matter how much you want to laugh at it, Kirbycides are legit, so do not approach blindly.

Final ratio: 40-60

 

[Bahamut777]

First things first. It's almost 87,3% sure that Kirby mainers will start matches doing the perfect 57% "Gonzo Combo" and the follow up with either UTilt (+shanenigans) or FSmash. After this, you're free to start playing.

After the Gonzo Combo, Kirby players will try their best to give you 125% with either BAirs, DAirs -> UTilt, UTilt comboez or grab gaynesses before they start spamming usmashes or fsmashes to kill you. There you can do the following:
-uair every kirby aerial. It breaks everything if well spaced.
-jab kirby's bair and dash attacks.
-Shield ONE utilt then roll away to prevent grabbing, ducking, another utilt...
-NAir every Grab Follow Up. It works like magic.

After they've got you around 125%, they'll spam FSmash like there is no tomorow. Thunderstorming it works unless they angle it up. Powershield -> FTilt is also very nice.

You can kill a kirby at around 80% if you save up your Dash Attack and DAir (you wont be TSming too much here...). FSmash angled Down covers the crouching and kills around 70% if you save it. Gerudo is easily to chain and it's a guaranteed FTilt or Jab.

Be careful while recovering. DAir's Soft spike is dangerous and can EK you pretty easily. But you can also EK Kirby very easily by DAiring him while he UpB to his death.

65-35

 

[fromundaman]

Just so you know, you can SDI out of the Gonzo when the Uair hits you, so if perfectly done, it should do no more than 18%. Of course, if that proves to be the case, next stock you just do Dthrow>Utilt>stuff depending on how well you read your opponent.

Clai summed it up nicely. Also, if the Kirby is spamming Fsmash blindly as soon as you hit kill %, he probably sucks

Also, just so you know, if you get inhaled offstage, don't bother struggling. Better to suffer the Kirbicide than the Inhale break>Footstool which is guaranteed on Ganon if Kirby is falling straight down.

 

[Arcade]

I wonder.. does aerial Gerudo override Swallow or vice-versa?

Either way someone's dying, lol

 

[fromundaman]

I'm pretty sure Inhale wins, since it has more range, but I'm not entirely sure.

Doesn't really matter either way though. If Kirby's trying to get an inhale offstage, either he's going for the footstool gimp, or, more likely, Kirbiciding. On last stock, this would go to Sudden death. With SBR rules, I believe Kirby wins the match.
If Ganon gets the Gerudo, either we get the same result (and I believe there's no rule for Ganon's Gerudo suicide for some dumb reason), or Ganon dies first and loses.

 

[_clinton]

I'm pretty sure Inhale wins, since it has more range, but I'm not entirely sure.

Doesn't really matter either way though. If Kirby's trying to get an inhale offstage, either he's going for the footstool gimp, or, more likely, Kirbiciding. On last stock, this would go to Sudden death. With SBR rules, I believe Kirby wins the match.
If Ganon gets the Gerudo, either we get the same result (and I believe there's no rule for Ganon's Gerudo suicide for some dumb reason), or Ganon dies first and loses.

Actually the rules about SDs are the same with every character...if Ganondorf pulls it off on the last stock...than he wins...if Kirby/other get it on the last stock...then they win (Sudden Death is never played in said event of it coming up IIRC)

Anyway as far as this match-up goes...If Ganondorf was a monster meant to clobber dat dere Kirby (and he was...because D3 is the true king people)
D3 better have got him with a money back guarantee

 

[fromundaman]

I know SD is never played, but I have seen rules where you put a 2 min timer 1 stock match to determine the winner if the character wasn't D3/Kirby/Bowser.
Technically, Bowser is the only one mentioned in SBR rules, but I've seen rulesets that exempt certain suicide characters for some stupid reason.

 

[Magnamancy]

The last tourney I played included Ganoncides in those setups, so I guess it's
just down to the different tourneys discrimination.

I've played a Kirby or two at that tourney too, they liked to Fair/Bair up close,
I shielded the first, they would SH another, which I shieldgrabbed and
punished.

I don't know how often a 'good' Kirby would do it, but it worked decently well.

Gerudo also comes out too fast if they try to Swallow in response, perfect
spacing can mindgame them into trying if you tip the Gerudo too.
They can jump over a Gerudo for some reason though, what you'd expect to
be a hit doesn't catch Kirby. >.>

Also, I've thunderstormed an attempted Fsmash, but if properly spaced on
Kirby's part it's hard.

 

[PK-ow!]

Shield beats Kirb's Fsmash.


And.... is decent on his other smashes, too.

The fella really has T-Rex hands.


Mainly, Kirby will annoy you with grabs, but then try and 'game you so you step into something actually lethal. The throws are uncomfortable, but (past the gonzo combo stage, I mean) they aren't what's going to kill you, so... just ignore them, I guess? See how often he's really going for it, and then try to punish hard a predicted grab.

Perhaps we can take some hints from the ZSS Kirby matchup. It's horrible for Kirby; what do we have that's like what Zamus has?
Kirb, further, is much like Ness. Slow movement, good aerials but pitiful ground game due to range and no shield pressure.


It seems that what you have to do is try to make Kirby whiff. If he's going for that perfect spacing, he's an inch away from a whiff. And he only has so much foot to try to hit you with, so if he's not poking at the limit, he's within your reach to fight back.


And you can't Gerudo Kirby's Copy. The only time that's happened has been because his windbox hasn't completely appeared yet. Yes, if he uses Swallow and you Aerudo from an angle, you may be able to grab him because the wind box isn't large on startup. But if he's just holding Swallow, you actually can only hit him with Stomp from up top, perfectly spaced dtilt, or land Fsmash on his grab armor and be eaten.

Kinda ****ty how safe he is.

 

[LadyLegion]

Ganondorf is one hell of a man...nuff said.

 

[Berserker.]

65:35 Kirby or 70:30 but I'm leaning on 65:35

Ganondorf gets off-staged by Kirby, he can't do anything about it cause his recovery isn't gonna reach. Ganondorf is fairly easy to juggle since he's soo heavy. Kirby still needs to watch out for u-air since it is fast, hardly any lag and it has moderately good KO potential.

 

[GanonkingAbyss]

Curbe will probably try to kill w/ a gimp like spitting under the stage(especially if u have a stock lead) or cgs etc, to a spike or bair offstage in the end. his only other kill moves are fh side b, fsmash and bair . u can sdi up left or up right to get out of cg (darn some1 beat me to it ) he'll probably dthrow to uptilts after realizing that fthrow uair, etc wont work, i think u can sdi out of his utilt after a couple hits. also if ur expecting fthrow uair an d try to spam up, left,control stick or c stick they could jump fair , uair, combos. from what i remember u cant shield grab his fairs and bairs. he can dtilt, shield grab, fastfall fair into grab. curbe will want to recover from the top of the stage like snake if possible since u can spike his up b. side b is great because of follow ups and chainchoking, which im not good at, but moving a short distance away and side bing toward him beats 75% of his choices. if he tries a random inhale mingame mid stage to catch u off guard u can dtilt, dair, and i think fsmash or fair to punish it. dthrow to uair is good if they di up. i forgot how to punish spaced fairs and bairs. basically all of this was already covered, although i wanted to post anything i know since this the only mu i know well in case it could be helpfull at all..

 

[B!squick]

Oh yeah, Bowsers are discussing the Ganon match-up. Ganon is serious business for Bowser as TP will tell you.

BTW, I totally want to play you again, man.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211975&page=121

 

[Superspright]

Kirby can be chain-choked. Which is what I always do when I choke one.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Kirby has three things about him that dominates Ganon:
His Bair
F-throw combos
Dair spiking our recovery

Bair. Kirby's bair is very good, high range, high priority, near zero landing lag, fast. It's very hard to combat a Kirby who uses Bair 50% of the time. There is nothing we have that can truly beat it. We can try to beat out full hop bairs with uair, our fair outranges it but that's too risky, Dtilt works if they space wrong. In my cases, I always find Pivot grabs work great if they try to approach with it. Ganon's decent Pivot Grab range is disjointed, and allows for safety against it.

Fthrow combos. Kirby has amazing combos out of fthrow, Especially the infamous Fthrow > Uair > Regrab combos he has. SDI is a good way to avoid the second grab and safely jump away after the uair. I'm not sure if this is guaranteed or not, because maybe the Kirby's I play aren't buffering the grab afterward, but I DI towards the Kirby and Up and I can double jump to footstoool them before the grab. After I did this for a while, I downB'd them right after the footstool to punish. I don't have high hopes for the footstool thing because I don't think it's guranteed. If it does work then we have an easier way to escape and can punish them too.

Dair. Unfortunately, I think Kirby's dair completely breaks our recovery and there is very, VERY little we can do about it. The only thing I can think of is if we don't use UpB and wait for them to dair off the stage so we can upB into them. Of course it's very risky but I can't think of another way to combat that edgeguard.

 

[stelzig]

By no means am i an expert in this game and i hardly ever play it, but while i agree with most of what clai says, what is it that actually makes kirby have to approach in this matchup? Normally i would agree, but against ganon simply waiting for ganon to do something should suffice, no? I also don't quite understand why kirby really should be in the air so much in this particular matchup or how someone thinks kirbys ground game is directly bad. And with his edgeguarding added to this, how come the conclusion is that his matchup with ganon is considered so relatively bad compared to other characters in the same tier?

I'm just curious, i'm probably completely wrong. With hardly ever playing brawl, especially against people my first attempt/idea would, outside maybe being a little agressive with all the things mentioned here, simply spacing myself out with retreating SH Bair and Utilts, just waiting for ganon. I suppose i would have to worry about the jab (can kirby crouch under that?) and dtilt though. But still that's no really all that scary is it? I would also imagine that kirby's size in general would just be annoying for ganon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf only loses 65/35 to D3 at most (except on FD which is a 7/3 matchup).

Just trying to get some discussion here, but seriously, this matchup isn't **** against Ganon.

The most important thing you can do against DDD is that you can space a few aerials on him safely. Fullhop N-air and U-air are both very good against him since they will hit him even if he's on the ground and he's not going to be able to grab you easily for doing this. Autocanceling B-air is obviously useful as well, and D3 also has to respect the range of your F-air, which can easily punish him if he makes any false moves.

Flame Choke is pretty easy to land on him since he doesn't too many safe strategies outside of shieldcamping. Generally speaking Ganondorf can actually afford to be patient in this matchup since DDD neither has threatening camping nor solid approaches with which he can threaten Ganon with in a neutral position. He can only punish you for making a mistake, which you can do as well.

 

[Clai]

By no means am i an expert in this game and i hardly ever play it, but while i agree with most of what clai says, what is it that actually makes kirby have to approach in this matchup? Normally i would agree, but against ganon simply waiting for ganon to do something should suffice, no? I also don't quite understand why kirby really should be in the air so much in this particular matchup or how someone thinks kirbys ground game is directly bad. And with his edgeguarding added to this, how come the conclusion is that his matchup with ganon is considered so relatively bad compared to other characters in the same tier?

I'm just curious, i'm probably completely wrong. With hardly ever playing brawl, especially against people my first attempt/idea would, outside maybe being a little agressive with all the things mentioned here, simply spacing myself out with retreating SH Bair and Utilts, just waiting for ganon. I suppose i would have to worry about the jab (can kirby crouch under that?) and dtilt though. But still that's no really all that scary is it? I would also imagine that kirby's size in general would just be annoying for ganon.

You can wait for Ganon to do something, but then it becomes a game of chicken, where both players are attempting to zone the other and waiting for something big to happen. You don't want to be predicted and then get caught in a Thunderstorm or Flame Choke from Ganon because it could lead to serious damage. Considering how fast most character's tilts/jabs/grabs are, Ganondorf has pathetic OOS options, so in my opinion, it'd be more rewarding for Kirby to pressure Ganon's shield and then get inside to put some hurt on Ganon because Ganon's not going to be able to do much against it.

As for your other questions, I don't remember recommending Kirby being in the air so much other than spacing Bairs, but Ganondorf outspaces Kirby heavily on the ground, so that might have to do with it. Otherwise, your suggestions are on the mark and essentially agree with what I've been saying about the matchup.

 

[:034:]

Ha, I was just gonna come in here for Kirby advice. Thanks guys.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Teh Lucas boards are discussing the Ganon MU. Here is the

 

[lordhelmet]

"However, due to grab release chaingrabs, he has a decent Meta Knight matchup (around 45/55), and is one of the best Wario counters in the game despite his tier placement."

The picture you have has MK 1-9 and Wario 2-8

 

[Clai]

"However, due to grab release chaingrabs, he has a decent Meta Knight matchup (around 45/55), and is one of the best Wario counters in the game despite his tier placement."

The picture you have has MK 1-9 and Wario 2-8

I'm not sure where you got that quote from, but that statement is simply inaccurate. Ganon-MK is really around the 1-9 area, but while the Wario matchup is certainly a lot better than 2-8, he's certainly not a counter. The grab-release on Wario certainly makes the matchup wholly winnable (around 4-6), as long as you're patient and play conservatively until the opportunity to grab Wario arises.

 

[smashkng]

Clai, you mean Ganon does do well vs Wario or are you talking about Falcon vs Wario? Because I can't think how Ganon doesn't get ***** by Wario.

 

[Vermanubis]

Clai, you mean Ganon does do well vs Wario or are you talking about Falcon vs Wario? Because I can't think how Ganon doesn't get ***** by Wario.

Wario does **** Ganon, but he's arguably the best MU in A tier that Ganon has. Ganon's FH nair is hard on Wario, and Wario's probably the character with the third best gimmicks you can use after a Gerudo, with first and second being Olimar and Diddy, respectively.

Glidetoss bike tire > forced get-up > fsmash.

Gerudo > tech-chase pivot grab > fsmash

Olimar 'cause he can be dsmash and ftilt'd guaranteed, and Diddy 'cause of the bananas lol.

@Clai: I'd say Wario versus Ganon is 70:30. Assuming the Wario is just as patient as you have to be, you have only a handful of options. But I agree, that quote is absurd. Whoever said it likely lost to a Ganon and needs justification.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Doesn't Wario have that ******** dthrow chaingrab on Ganon that decimates him if he gets the grab? And doesn't wario get grabs retardedly easy?

 

[Vermanubis]

Doesn't Wario have that ******** dthrow chaingrab on Ganon that decimates him if he gets the grab? And doesn't wario get grabs retardedly easy?

Yes, lol. But thankfully the CG is exceptionally hard to pull off, since it needs to be nearly frame perfect. But the Wario can actually tech-chase the dthrow, and since you're bounced back up to standing position, it makes chasing a lot easier for Wario, since your only options are spotdodge and rolling.

The thing about Wario that gets me the most is his nair's second hitbox coming out right before he lands, making him able to buffer just about anything if he lands it. Even if you shield as Ganon, it's still risky, because he can still nair > grab you pretty easily.

 

[smashkng]

I think if Wario gets the lead he'll just time Ganon out by air camping, and getting the lead vs Ganon is extremely easy, that's why I'm going for 80/20 or even 85/15. Matchup are based on the very top of the level of play, so the CG should be included.