"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Wario is one of the better characters at air camping and if he's doing it on battlefield you can kiss that victory goodbye. If it's on Final destination or Smashville then you have a decent chance at catching them while they're jumping around.

On a side note I love tech chasing Wario from sideB with Grabs. Easiest way to grab Wario rather than getting a lucky pivot grab. Ganon's grab release chaingrab is really easy to boot. And the best thing is once you have that lead, it's difficult for Wario to get his lead back because Ganon's nair and uair spacing hurts Wario's pride.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon vs Wario is a really funny matchup.

I just get him to like 85% then wait until I can grab him, then F-smash him.

D-air spiking his low recovery is also funny.

 

[Clai]

Wario does **** Ganon, but he's arguably the best MU in A tier that Ganon has. Ganon's FH nair is hard on Wario, and Wario's probably the character with the third best gimmicks you can use after a Gerudo, with first and second being Olimar and Diddy, respectively.

Glidetoss bike tire > forced get-up > fsmash.

Gerudo > tech-chase pivot grab > fsmash

Olimar 'cause he can be dsmash and ftilt'd guaranteed, and Diddy 'cause of the bananas lol.

@Clai: I'd say Wario versus Ganon is 70:30. Assuming the Wario is just as patient as you have to be, you have only a handful of options. But I agree, that quote is absurd. Whoever said it likely lost to a Ganon and needs justification.

I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be. While Wario is capable of doing some insane stuff once he gets inside, Ganondorf has plenty of tools to make things difficult for him. Ganon's Uair is great for this matchup as it covers his entire body; in fact, Ganon's entire aerial arsenal helps him ward off Wario's shenanigans. As long as you play conservatively and perhaps camp the ledge as needed, Wario's going to have a lot more trouble than other characters. I did forget about that chaingrab, though, and that would push the matchup more in his favor, but all you need is a powershield -> grab to do some stupid stuff to Wario.

Also, several characters can be f-tilted out of Gerudo, not just Olimar.

 

[Vermanubis]

I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be. While Wario is capable of doing some insane stuff once he gets inside, Ganondorf has plenty of tools to make things difficult for him. Ganon's Uair is great for this matchup as it covers his entire body; in fact, Ganon's entire aerial arsenal helps him ward off Wario's shenanigans. As long as you play conservatively and perhaps camp the ledge as needed, Wario's going to have a lot more trouble than other characters. I did forget about that chaingrab, though, and that would push the matchup more in his favor, but all you need is a powershield -> grab to do some stupid stuff to Wario.

Also, several characters can be f-tilted out of Gerudo, not just Olimar.

I didn't make it out very bad at all. o_O

I said he was the best MU of the A-tier. As for his Uair, I agree it's great, but it's best only if the Wario is aggressive. I find Nair to be better, since it reaches out farther, can be approached with and can lead into strings. As for PS > grab, I'd normally agree, but most of Wario's aerials are multi-hit or so manueverable that he can weave out of grab range.

And true, but while they can be ftilted, none are guaranteed except for Olimar.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Wario is simply one of those characters that relies entirely on the player's ability to space. If the Wario is aggressive and doesn't camp, then they're doing it wrong. Overall though, I agree. Wario is probably Ganondorf's best match-up out of the high/top tier characters.

The only things to watch out for is his down throw string, which is rarely ever used. I haven't played a single Wario that's abused it on either of the characters I use that are subjected to it;; the auto-canceled weak Nair to -> whatever while the character is still in their hitstun, which was also mentioned -- and finally, having Wario blindside gimping Ganondorf's recovery with a fair / bair or even a high/maximum charged waft.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Oh and for wario recovering, yeah done right we can just destroy his stock. If he recovers high like he normally does then we have to rely on uair and airdodge predictions. But If he's recovering below from an ftilt, tipman or spike, we've got him. Tipman Wario out of his bike if he's coming from straight below, double jump dair if it's just a bit higher than that. What I always see Wario's do is that they mostly airdodge after they jump off their bike, if we airdodge onto the stage or get up fast enough, we can chase his airdodge into a lot of things like a Grab

 

[Darky-Sama]

The tipman molests Wario's bike recovery, regardless. As long as he's leveled with the stage's ledge or below it, you can semi-spike him to a point where his recovery options are practically useless;; unless he didn't use his second jump or has a highly/fully charged waft available.

That being said, if Wario is able to avoid it, I doubt Ganon would have an easy time punishing his landing. His aerial directional speed would allow him to shift his landing to whatever fit the situation. If he was close to the ledge and Ganondorf was on the stage, he would probably just shift himself back so he grabs the ledge {at least that's what I do with Wario to avoid being punished}.

But if that situation would come up, yes. Ganondorf probably could punish Wario with a grab, or even a pivot grab if Wario managed to get behind Ganondorf while he's in the middle of a dash. Very rare though.

 

[TP]

And true, but while they can be ftilted, none are guaranteed except for Olimar.

o_0

Verm, I've heard great things about you... but read the **** guides.

 

[Dumbfire]

Ftilt only gauranteed on Olimar?
Wut?
Here's the list from the guide:
The F-Tilt:

1. Kirby
2. Pikachu
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. Luigi
5. Diddy
6. Meta Knight
7. Ivysuar
8. Charizard
9. Ike
10. Yoshi
11. Ice Climbers
12. King Dedede
13. Toon Link
14. R.O.B.
15. Capt. Olimar
16. Jigglypuff

I also heard you can Down Smash Olimar from your gerudo, is that true?

 

[A2ZOMG]

That list is indeed correct, and you are in fact able to D-smash Olimar from Flame Choke. Keep in mind he can DI up, which makes the move unsafe on hit. If you predict he is DIing up, just thunderstorm him lol.

Buffering F-tilt from Flame Choke requires practice. You have to actually press forward and A at the same time in order to buffer the tilt correctly. You can't hold forward and mash A.

 

[TP]

Alternatively, setting the c-stick to attack makes Choke>Ftilt extremely easy, at the cost of stutterstep Fsmash. You can also safely assume that no Olimar will DI the Dsmash correctly, because it is a rarely used move on a rarely used character in a matchup they don't consider worth learning.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That also forces you to sacrifice iDA, which is very undesirable for your flame choke options.

It's better to learn how to buffer tilts correctly lol.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

For the ftilt, I just hold forward and buffer A at the right time and the ftilt always works for me.

 

[Clai]

I didn't make it out very bad at all. o_O

I'd consider 70-30 to be bad. No matter how dull we are to the pain of matchups, a hard counter is a hard counter, and I want to make sure we exhaust all options before declaring anyone that.

As for his Uair, I agree it's great, but it's best only if the Wario is aggressive. I find Nair to be better, since it reaches out farther, can be approached with and can lead into strings.

It certainly depends on the situation. While Nair has its uses, I fear that Wario can just maneuver around Ganon's hitbox from above and then get inside to lay the hurt on Ganon. Ganon's Uair sweeps his body to prevent Wario from doing that. Again, it depends on the situation.

As for PS > grab, I'd normally agree, but most of Wario's aerials are multi-hit or so manueverable that he can weave out of grab range.

I agree that most of the time Wario would weave out to bait a grab and then punish you for trying to land it. That's why I stress playing conservately and not attempting grabs until you're about certain you'll land it.

I wouldn't bother trying to grab Wario out of Dair, but you can grab him out of Nair if you powershield the first hit.

Wario is simply one of those characters that relies entirely on the player's ability to space. If the Wario is aggressive and doesn't camp, then they're doing it wrong.

I'm not advocating Wario rushing in blindly, but I'd much rather use a strategy that limits Ganondorf's options as much as possible than a strategy that involves hitting and running. Camping and thus giving Ganondorf the space he needs to execute his strategies and incorporate mindgames is too risky.

Finally, having Wario blindside gimping Ganondorf's recovery with a fair / bair or even a high/maximum charged waft.

Ganondorf heavily outranges Wario, so the Ganon player can predict what Wario is going to do regarding a gimping situation and respond with the options that he has. Gimping Ganon will not be easy if the player knows how to use his options.

 

[Dre89]

That also forces you to sacrifice iDA, which is very undesirable for your flame choke options.

It's better to learn how to buffer tilts correctly lol.

I thought you could still iDA with t-sticking.

 

[Vermanubis]

o_0

Verm, I've heard great things about you... but read the **** guides.

As far as I know, Olimar is the only character whom can be ftilted, guaranteed, regardless of get-up type or DI. Several can be ftilted out of Gerudo, but they have to do a certain type of get-up.

 

[Dumbfire]

As far as the guides now it are those:

The F-Tilt:

1. Kirby
2. Pikachu
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. Luigi
5. Diddy
6. Meta Knight
7. Ivysuar
8. Charizard
9. Ike
10. Yoshi
11. Ice Climbers
12. King Dedede
13. Toon Link
14. R.O.B.
15. Capt. Olimar
16. Jigglypuff

 

[Darky-Sama]

F-Tilt works on nearly half of the roster? lolwut.

I didn't think it was 'guaranteed' on that many character. Buffered D-Tilt, perhaps, but F-Tilt? That's news to me.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I just never knew you could ftilt Ike and Captain Falcon. I can never do ftilts on those two.

 

[Vermanubis]

As far as the guides now it are those:

The F-Tilt:

1. Kirby
2. Pikachu
3. Mr. Game and Watch
4. Luigi
5. Diddy
6. Meta Knight
7. Ivysuar
8. Charizard
9. Ike
10. Yoshi
11. Ice Climbers
12. King Dedede
13. Toon Link
14. R.O.B.
15. Capt. Olimar
16. Jigglypuff

Most of them can be ftilted, but they have to do a certain type of get-up.

 

[TP]

No, you just have to buffer it correctly. They can't do a thing about it. Look at the frame data.

Also, Terodactyl, that's Capt. Olimar, not Capt. Falcon. lol.

 

[Clai]

FRAME ADVANTAGE

Grounded Flame Choke Frame Advantage (All thanks to K Prime)

8 Ganondorf

9 Bowser
9 DK
9 Falco
9 Link
9 Lucario
9 Marth
9 Samus
9 Snake
9 Wolf

10 DDD
10 Falcon
10 Fox
10 Ike
10 Mario
10 Peach
10 Pit
10 Sheik
10 Sonic
10 Zelda

11 Charizard
11 Diddy
11 Luigi
11 Pikachu
11 Toon Link

12 G&W
12 Ice Climbers
12 Ivysaur
12 Jigglypuff
12 Kirby
12 Lucas
12 Metaknight
12 Ness
12 ROB
12 Squirtle
12 Wario
12 Yoshi
12 ZSS

16 Olimar

Ganon's Ftilt lands on frame 10, so if Ganon has a 10 frame advantage or more, then he can land an Ftilt with the opponent having no chance at a get-up. The reason that all of the characters that apply here don't apply to the previous list is because the hitbox of Ftilt doesn't connect with the character's hurtbox, but it's certainly gauaranteed regardless of the get-up.

*I saw that list that you might be referring to. It could be possible that the chart was made before the frame data was released, and thus is completely inaccurate due to human error*

 

[Darky-Sama]

Question, Clai (or anyone who can answer this question), what thread was that frame data sheet from? If there was more information similar to that on it, I'd appreciate a link.

 

[Clai]

Ganon Techs, Skills, Frame Data, and Hitboxes. Frame data is post 2.

It's a comprehensive list of everything about everything regarding Ganon. Hasn't been touched in a while, it might be good if the first post was cleaned out a bit.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Oh, I didn't know it was on this page, I've seen this before.
Also, thanks.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

No, you just have to buffer it correctly. They can't do a thing about it. Look at the frame data.

Also, Terodactyl, that's Capt. Olimar, not Capt. Falcon. lol.

Oh wow that was ********. Saw the Capt. and assumed falcon <_<

 

[Divilenta]

Ftilt on Ike can be very effective at mid to high percents if you boot him off the edge. The trajectory will make it very, very difficult to recover.

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-tilt follow up is ****ing godlike on everyone it works on.

Just hard to do consistently. I like it most on DDD since he's much easier to kill horizontally as opposed to vertically.

I still can't Flame Choke Dash attack consistently though.

 

[Divilenta]

F-tilt follow up is ****ing godlike on everyone it works on.

Just hard to do consistently. I like it most on DDD since he's much easier to kill horizontally as opposed to vertically.

I still can't Flame Choke Dash attack consistently though.

Funnily enough I've found it much easier to go Choke > iDA than Choke > Ftilt. I'm not sure if it's a timing thing or what.

 

[A2ZOMG]

All I know about Flame Choke F-tilt is that the trick to buffering it is that you have to time both lightly tapping the stick sideways AND the A button press at the same time.

I don't understand why I can't buffer iDA yet though. It often comes out as D-smash for me, so I assume I'm hitting the Dash too early or something.

 

[:034:]

I f-tilt after choke by holding the stick lightly while Ganon's still in the choke animation... and mash A. Same with d-tilt and both work.

I can't get the iDA because I dash too early. Unlike holding the stick in a direction you have to tap it at the right moment so I don't always get it right.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Yeah but mashing A while holding forward doesn't work all the time. The best way I've found to do is to Hold Forward Lightly and Press A at the right timing.

iDA is difficult because you have to buffer the dash and the dash attack before the choke animation finishes. :/

 

[SLASHinator]

Yeah but mashing A while holding forward doesn't work all the time. The best way I've found to do is to Hold Forward Lightly and Press A at the right timing.

iDA is difficult because you have to buffer the dash and the dash attack before the choke animation finishes. :/

Good sir, please share, what ís the right timing? Please answer in terms of the choke animation cos I suck/know nothing of frames. When the enemy hits the ground, when Ganon starts to put his arm down,...?

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Good sir, please share, what ís the right timing? Please answer in terms of the choke animation cos I suck/know nothing of frames. When the enemy hits the ground, when Ganon starts to put his arm down,...?

Right buffering is what I should have said, it's actually really easy to hold forward lightly and press A within ten frames of the choke ending.

 

[seaDORF]

How many more characters do we have to discuss? Ray's first post sums it up really well but I noticed that some of the characters down the bottom of his post like sonic haven't got any information in there?

I haven't participated in this discussion because i'm still new here so i don't know what's been said in this thread but tbh, i can't really be fwucked looking through 173 pages of text to find information related to specific characters.

If some characters haven't been discussed yet, could we organize it and go-about discussing the match-up? If they have, would you be able to update the info in your first post ray?

I see that the title says we are reviewing kirby but I haven't seen much discussion about kirby in the last few pages.

I'm not trying to sound like a selfish and unappreciative cwunt. I really respect what you all have to say and acknowledge that alot of effort has been put into this. I just believe that knowing every character's match-up is crucial to ganon's success.

 

[Tonsana]

I wanna to talk about the MK mathup next! Why havnt there been one yet?

 

[smashkng]

Maybe we leave this thread to rest and create a new matchup thread that is active and updates matchup discussions very often, starting with MK?

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

BUMP, we should talk about MK next since it's the Match-up most people just really want to know.

 

[Divilenta]

Don't die.


Best way not to die is to not get off the stage. We all know how good MK is at gimping.

 

[Dumbfire]

PK-ow made a good and lulzy post about it the MK mu in the general discussion some time ago.