"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Acedude55]

As long as the opponent can attack it isn't 0-100.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

As long as the opponent can attack it isn't 0-100.

Being able to attack =/= being able to win. A match-up ratio's purpose is to determine what the chances of winning are.

 

[Acedude55]

Being able to attack does not = being able to win.

Ganon can win.

3 SD's can happen.

Point stands. 1-99 or better.

 

[SaltyKracka]

DK vs. DDD is a prime example.

Ganon can win.

3 SD's can happen.

Point stands. 1-99 or better.

3 SDs in a row is so bad that matchups don't even come into it.

 

[Acedude55]

Yes, but technically 3 sd's can happen.

1-99 or better.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Yes, but technically 3 sd's can happen.

1-99 or better.

The kind of player who would SD 3 times in a row is so bad that no matter who they chose, they would lose. Matchups don't come into it, and it doesn't affect matchups.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon can win.

3 SD's can happen.

Point stands. 1-99 or better.

That's relying on player error, and has nothing to do with the matchup.

 

[Acedude55]

That's relying on player error, and has nothing to do with the matchup.

Remind me again why its 0-100.

Let it be anything but 0-100.

1-99 or whatever. Just anything but that.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Remind me again why its 0-100.

Let it be anything but 0-100.

1-99 or whatever. Just anything but that.

Why does it matter to you?

Check the summary the IC boards have on us.

 

[SaltyKracka]

It's 0-100 because the ICs can force the approach, shieldgrab us out of anything we do than isn't Gerudo, and hit us out of that, and every time they grab us we die.

It's very analogous to the DK vs. DDD matchup, which is another 100-0

 

[Acedude55]

Why does it matter to you?

Check the summary the IC boards have on us.

Because I use him? lol

And I'll do that just now.

 

[ook]

It's very analogous to the DK vs. DDD matchup, which is another 100-0

Even DK vs DDD isn't 0-100

Ganondorf mains really exaggerate their matchups XD

There's no wayyy anything is 0-100.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Even DK vs DDD isn't 0-100, don't get grabbed.



Ganondorf mains really exaggerate their matchups XD

There's no wayyy anything is 0-100.

I laughed at that. Mostly because it's so incredibly stupid.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Even DK vs DDD isn't 0-100, don't get grabbed.



Ganondorf mains really exaggerate their matchups XD

There's no wayyy anything is 0-100.

Cause we don't count opponents stupidity in a matchup discussion? :/

 

[ook]

Ganondorf mains really exaggerate their matchups XD

I stand by this statement

 

[SaltyKracka]

Then you've never really played Ganondorf.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I stand by this statement

Cause we don't count opponents stupidity in a matchup discussion? :/

and I stand by this.

 

[Acedude55]

Cause we don't count opponents stupidity in a matchup discussion? :/

getting grabbed is opponent stupidity. =/

Edited....

 

[Darky-Sama]

I actually agree with Ook to an extent.

No match-up should be counted as a 0:100, even for Ganondorf.
That's just implying that no one should even try to find a different way around the match-up. What good is that for helping the boards at all?

And... an opponent's stupidity? Then I suppose you're implying that every single bad match-up for Ganondorf that you claim is 0:100 means that the character - - or player's individual playstyle, cannot be punished? Even a Meta Knight who uses only Tornado can be punished. Difficult, yes. Impossible, no.

inb4 flaming for that statement.

10:90 should be the lowest match-up coordination, period.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I actually agree with Ook to an extent.

No match-up should be counted as a 0:100, even for Ganondorf.
And... an opponent's stupidity? Then I suppose you're implying that every single bad match-up for Ganondorf that you claim is 0:100 means that the character - - or player's individual playstyle, cannot be punished? Even a Meta Knight who uses only Tornado can be punished. Difficult, yes. Impossible, no.

inb4 flaming for that statement.

10:90 should be the lowest match-up coordination, period.

That's just implying that no one should even try to find a different way around the match-up. What good is that for helping the boards at all?

That's the inherent problem with Ganondorf in this match-up (and any other for that matter). There isn't a way for Ganon to get around Ice Climber's grab and infinites, and anyone with a projectile can force you to approach. It's easy enough to avoid, but it's a lot easier to just run up and grab.

(At the top of the metagame) One grab = One stock. Getting that one grab isn't hard, avoiding it is.

getting grabbed is opponent stupidity. =/

Edited....

and getting grabbed when there's nothing your could do about it, is not.

 

[Darky-Sama]

The same applies to majority of the characters on the roster, if you're speaking solely on Ice Climbers. The only character that can potentially avoid or eliminate their overall metagame is another set of Ice Climbers.

I will admit though, Ganondorf has it much harder against ICs, due to his lack of mobility.
I would still only rate that match-up as a 90:10. Maybe a 95:5, going the lowest.

The only way I really fair in that match-up is abusing Ganondorf's pivot grab, since it has more range than their own, and use a throw in whatever direction will repel the ungrabbed climber. While he's grabbing, they can't grab you (which nine times out of ten, that's what they'd attempt at close range) - - eventually, they'll stop being stupid and trying it constantly if that's the case, which means you'll have a slight chance of desyncing them, if you don't do so with the throw.

Ice Climbers are ridiculous though.


Anyway, that's not the match-up we're on, so... back to DK.
What's the current ratio?
65:35, Donkey Kong?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I will admit though, Ganondorf has it much harder against ICs, due to his lack of mobility.
I would still only rate that match-up as a 90:10. Maybe a 95:5, going the lowest.

The only way I really fair in that match-up is abusing Ganondorf's pivot grab, since it has more range than their own, and use a throw in whatever direction will repel the ungrabbed climber. While he's grabbed, they can't grab you (which nine times out of ten, that's what they'd attempt at close range) - - eventually, they'll stop being stupid and trying it constantly if that's the case, which means you'll have a slight chance of desyncing them, if you don't do so with the throw.

Ice Climbers are ridiculous though.


Anyway, that's not the match-up we're on, so... back to DK.
What's the current ratio?
65:35, Donkey Kong?

The same applies to majority of the characters on the roster, if you're speaking solely on Ice Climbers. The only character that can potentially avoid or eliminate their overall metagame is another set of Ice Climbers.

That's a ditto that you're speaking of. I fail to see how one IC can eliminate the other if the "other" itself is a IC.

The only way I really fair in that match-up is abusing Ganondorf's pivot grab, since it has more range than their own, and use a throw in whatever direction will repel the ungrabbed climber. While he's grabbed, they can't grab you (which nine times out of ten, that's what they'd attempt at close range) - - eventually, they'll stop being stupid and trying it constantly if that's the case, which means you'll have a slight chance of desyncing them, if you don't do so with the throw.

There's one problem with this theory. ICs won't just whiff up a grab expecting to land it, they'll try getting in with blizzard making sure it's safe to land the grab, then they'll do so.

This match is a very good example.

 

[Darky-Sama]

That's a ditto that you're speaking of. I fail to see how one IC can eliminate the other if the "other" itself is a IC.



There's one problem with this theory. ICs won't just whiff up a grab expecting to land it, they'll try getting in with blizzard making sure it's safe to land the grab, then they'll do so.

This match is a very good example.

That's a ditto that you're speaking of. I fail to see how one IC can eliminate the other if the "other" itself is a IC.

Yes, but they can't infinite you as long as both ICs are present. Which makes the match-up 50:50. Possibly the highest ratio for any character in the ICs match-up chart.

There's one problem with this theory. ICs won't just whiff up a grab expecting to land it, they'll try getting in with blizzard making sure it's safe to land the grab, then they'll do so.

Yeah, I know. But at least the blizzard is punishable with proper timing.
The match-up obviously isn't easy for Ganon, but it's not impossible.
95:5 / 90:10.

It's a shame there isn't many decent counterpicks against ICs either.
They fair well just about every stage that isn't Rainbow Cruise, and even then... lol.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yes, but they can't infinite you as long as both ICs are present. Which makes the match-up 50:50. Possibly the highest ratio for any character in the ICs match-up chart.




Yeah, I know. But at least the blizzard is punishable with proper timing.
The match-up obviously isn't easy for Ganon, but it's not impossible.
95:5 / 90:10.

It's a shame there isn't many decent counterpicks against ICs either.
They fair well just about every stage that isn't Rainbow Cruise, and even then... lol.

Yeah, I know. But at least the blizzard is punishable with proper timing.

True, but ICs will eventually land the grab.

The match-up obviously isn't easy for Ganon, but it's not impossible.
95:5 / 90:10.

I've just explained this, this match-up is 100-0 in ICs favor, and will remain that way.

95/90 match-ups ARE impossible, so I really don't see the point you're making.

 

[TP]

The last page was pointless.

 

[Z1GMA]

A bad Ganon can win against a bad IC, no problem. The outcome is pretty random.

A decent Ganon can sometimes win against a decent IC.

A pro Ganon can't, ever in ****, win against a pro IC.
^(Top of the Metagame)

Therefore 0:100

 

[Darky-Sama]

A bad Ganon can win against a bad IC, no problem. The outcome is pretty random.

A decent Ganon can sometimes win against a decent IC.

A pro Ganon can't, ever in ****, win against a pro IC.
^(Top of the Metagame)

Therefore 0:100

Okay, I see what you're saying.
But for you to claim a match-up is that high in someone's favor? Sounds a bit off.

Like in the video Ray_Kalm posted, if a Ganondorf can pluck one stock off the Ice Climber, then it's obviously not an impossible 0:100 match-up. But if that's what you guys follow, then I'm not going to start a debate on it.

Just have different views on it.

We still agree that Ice Climbers wreck Ganon though, that's the main thing.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Like in the video Ray_Kalm posted, if a Ganondorf can pluck one stock off the Ice Climber, then it's obviously not an impossible 0:100 match-up. But if that's what you guys follow, then I'm not going to start a debate on it..

Do you even know how match-up ratios work? Their based on the chances of the characters winning, not how much stocks you could take off of eachother.

 

[noradseven]

True, but ICs will eventually land the grab.

I've just explained this, this match-up is 100-0 in ICs favor, and will remain that way.

95/90 match-ups ARE impossible, so I really don't see the point you're making.

enough random trips and well... 95-5 matchups are not impossible just REALLY REALLY BAD, but I kinda agree a top IC vs top ganon will either be 100-0. A solid IC that takes ganon seriously could just shut us down with de-sync freeze, grab, whelp stock.

In all honesty in this match I recommend rush IC as hard as possible, and just pumble nana as hard as possible and the moment you get grabbed you should be able to mash out near instantly until like 20% then just hope and pray. This will not work against really good IC's and it will work well against decent ICs but its really our only shot.

Also yes their can be 100-0 matches Im p. sure it was MvC2 that had the first one if you don't count banned characters, from others like jojo's lololol petshop vs anyone slow, with bad AA.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Do you even know how match-up ratios work? Their based on the chances of the characters winning, not how much stocks you could take off of eachother.

Yes, I know how match-up ratios work, or I wouldn't be sticking to my theory right now.

The Ganondorf vs Ice Climber match-up is ridiculous, I've said it multiple times now.
0:100 seems about right, but that's basically saying "You have no chance, give up".
As smart and logical as that seems, I'd agree even 1:99 is a more reasonable ratio than that.

But since 5:95 is obviously too high for this match-up, lets stick with 0:100.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yes, I know how match-up ratios work, or I wouldn't be sticking to my theory right now.

The Ganondorf vs Ice Climber match-up is ridiculous, I've said it multiple times now.
0:100 seems about right, but that's basically saying "You have no chance, give up".
As smart and logical as that seems, I'd agree even 1:99 is a more reasonable ratio than that.

But since 5:95 is obviously too high for this match-up, lets stick with 0:100.

If you knew how match-up ratios worked, you wouldn't be basing them off of stocks and damage.

Saying 1:99 is reasonable would mean that ICs will lose to Ganon once out of every 100 games, which is not true.

 

[Darky-Sama]

If you knew how match-up ratios worked, you wouldn't be basing them off of stocks and damage.

Saying 1:99 is reasonable would mean that ICs will lose to Ganon once out of every 100 games, which is not true.

I wasn't basing it off stocks and damage. What I'm saying, is if you can get at least one stock off, it's not an IMPOSSIBLE match-up. Very slim, but most certainly not impossible.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Technically it's .000000001 to 99.999999999 (or close to it).


There exists the possibility that Ganon perfectly predicts everything that the ICs do, and punishes them for that prediction, resulting in a victory.


It's just stupidly unlikely, still, it isn't a technical 100-0, because it's not truly impossible in the mathematical sense, just stupid unlikely.



Also, don't use statistics, pair two people of truly equal skill with their respective characters at the top of the metagame and you're gonna hit stupidly high numbers way too fast for it to be useful.


As far as percentages go, DDD is probably 99.999 to .001 or somewhere equally lol-tastic, Sheik is worse.


Even characters that we consider soft-counters as far as percentages go would go in the 80s in terms of percents.


When it gets that high, it becomes pretty useless.

 

[Smith]

I wasn't basing it off stocks and damage. What I'm saying, is if you can get at least one stock off, it's not an IMPOSSIBLE match-up. Very slim, but most certainly not impossible.

You do realize ICs can do different type of infinites on Ganon that don't normally work on the rest of the cast? This is 0:100 no doubt.

 

[Liquid Gen]

As long as a character can move and attack at some point during a match the matchup is AT LEAST 99-1. The opponent can suicide all three stocks one way or another, and since matchup ratios are hypothetical in nature, so is that situation.

100:0 does not exist.

 

[Clai]

I was going to respond personally to this, but I feel it'll make me a lot less angry if I just say to anyone who thinks 100-0 isn't possible that Ray Kalm and the other people know what they're talking about and you don't. Anyone who underexaggerates Ganon's matchups doesn't know how bad of a character Ganondorf really is, and this is coming from someone who had the upmost confidence in Ganondorf for over a year, thinking we'd be able to overcome the BS people say about us. The more we climb up the metagame, the more we realize how much Ganon is really just a terrible, useless character.

Right, now for DK- I practice against a DK player all the time, so I know his moveset inside and out, and I'll point out a few things about it:

DK"s b-air alone counters Ganon. Really, I can't do jack if a player just spams that move over and over again, it has rediculous speed, range and nearly no cooldown.
That being said, the front side of DK when he's in the air is completely exposed for us to up-air juggle as we please.
In fact, outside of b-air, DK doesn't have much in the ways of approaching us if we use retreating up-airs, which is great since DK is so big that we can easily hit him with it.
Don't get grabbed near the ledge, because DK's down cargo throw is lethal if he throws you off the stage.
DK's smashes have enough coolown that we can punish with a nice b-air or a choke, so anyone's who a real good techchaser will love to fight DK.
DK wrecks RCO lag. Hard. RCO lag is just so, so stupid.

As someone pointed out earlier, always, ALWAYS strike Yoshi's Island. Seriously, just don't pick that stage, ever. As for your second strike, I'd probably say Smashville, since that moving platform usually hurts me more than helps.

Match-up ratio: Ganon 35-65 DK

 

[PK-ow!]

Technically it's .000000001 to 99.999999999 (or close to it).


There exists the possibility that Ganon perfectly predicts everything that the ICs do, and punishes them for that prediction, resulting in a victory.

Alright.

As contrasted with, the case that there is some option Op which one character can choose such that, even if it is predicted, the other character has no answer. In that case, the match is truly 0:100.

Since Ganon actually can do something if he predicts everything - equivalently, there is no IC play which is without weakness - then this matchup is technically possible.

I propose such matchups be defined to be 99:1, just to distinguish them categorically from 100:0s. So, a 1:99 is a matchup known to be worse than 5:95 (i.e., data is lost in saying the matchup is as bad as even 5:95), but not 0:100, by the definition above (between adumbrodeus and myself).


I'm not in the camp that calls matchups probability values. They just don't seem to be about probability. To me at least, it seems they're rather a sort of qualitative descriptor masked in a numeric-looking form. I think people understand 7:3 as meaning the sort of 'bad disabilities, but some niche exploits' matchup that 7:3 is, not as an expression of any ratio of actual quantities you could point to.
I mean, the fact that it works out that matchups - across different fighters - which are felt to have a certain level of lopsidedness, can all be unified in each case under qualitative descriptors,

Spoiler

like "Uphill, but certain situations can be set-up -> exploited to put you in the advantage", or "don't make a mistake" or "overrepresent this one move and you'll tend to do better, but you have to think as hard as the opponent",

seems to be what could be a theorem of (some science of) competitive fighter gaming; and so, itself ought to make reasonable the system of definition I've just outlined.



About the DK matchup... a thought occurs that Quake, at the right point, might be handy. The DK would bounce up, but his lackluster front-hitting aerials, and low altitude, would mean he's put off-balance by the Quake.
Still, Quake probably has just so much lag for DK to still land something.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Alright.

As contrasted with, the case that there is some option Op which one character can choose such that, even if it is predicted, the other character has no answer. In that case, the match is truly 0:100.

Since Ganon actually can do something if he predicts everything - equivalently, there is no IC play which is without weakness - then this matchup is technically possible.

I propose such matchups be defined to be 99:1, just to distinguish them categorically from 100:0s. So, a 1:99 is a matchup known to be worse than 5:95 (i.e., data is lost in saying the matchup is as bad as even 5:95), but not 0:100, by the definition above (between adumbrodeus and myself).

^
Excellent wording.
Exactly the point I'm trying to get across.

 

[Z1GMA]

I feel it'll make me a lot less angry if I just say to anyone who thinks 100-0 isn't possible that Ray Kalm and the other people know what they're talking about and you don't.

*Clai earned 10 Gold Star(s)*

 

[A2ZOMG]

DK"s b-air alone counters Ganon. Really, I can't do jack if a player just spams that move over and over again, it has rediculous speed, range and nearly no cooldown.

Punish it out of shield. You can reliably U-air, B-air, Jab, or N-air out of shield to punish it. The move itself has a -20 advantage in the air, meaning there's about 27 frames between SH double B-airs.

Mentioning B-air, of course, you want to spam this move against him here since it's safe on block (lol -7 frame advantage on autocancel).