"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Z1GMA]

Fixed your post.

Still, Ganon doesn't have to approach because of that.
He'd rather hold his ground: Bait, AC'd Aerials, Wiff and/or retreat slightly.
But not approach.

 

[Clai]

this

ganons large and has no really fast moves when hes getting bounced around by falcons uairs and bairs

his uair is the only move really fast enough, and if the falcons smart he will try to juggle you with uairs from behind

airdodging is kinda pointless also, if your juggling a ganon your going to expect a airdodge, in which case you just wait and punish

if you think ganon has the upper hand you need to play better falcons

ive played good ganons, its 55-45 falcons favor, close enough to neutral it doesnt matter though

Ganon's N-air can hit characters below him, and it's one frame slower than up-air. Also, if you can constantly predict Ganon airdodging enough to always punish it, you need to play better Ganons.

Falcon's never safe? You do know that we're discussing Ganon here, don't you? He's never safe either.

Er, Ganon is the easiest character to combo in brawl (arguable with King D3). He's tall, big, and has no good combo/chain breaking move. He doesn't even have the weight to back that up.

So, how again are Falcon's combos on Ganon minimal?

When you compare the amount of damage Falcon does compared to Ganon's when one of them is juggling the other, yeah it's going to be insignificant. Falcon gets juggled just as easily as Ganon does once the combo starts.

Still, Ganon doesn't have to approach because of that.
He'd rather hold his ground: Bait, AC'd Aerials, Wiff and/or retreat slightly.
But not approach.

This and what adumbrodeus said. Who's going to approach who is pointless in this discussion, it's about what the character can do once he gets through. Ganon can make more from his comboes onstage, and Falcon can do it better offstage.

 

[Sovereign]

This matchup goes to Falcon. Get it in your heads. Falcon's ground and air game is simply better. Ganon is slow, big(easily knee'd), and heavy = combo-able character. Falcon can eat him alive at every rip. All Falcon has to do is avoid the Choke, and all is well, since that is a big part of Ganon's game.

**** Ganon's recovery by eating the Dive and Uairing out, and repeating, until you feel confident enough to edgehog. If he goes for a Flying Choke, avoid at all costs, to avoid DKOs or simply losing a stock, period, since attacking a Flying Choke increases your chances of being grabbed, due to Falcon's hurt box, being in exetremely close areas around or on his hitboxes.
Have knowledge about Ganon's WizKick Cancels, and know when to pursue or wait.

Ganon will mainly be on defense against Falcon, since speed and agility are on Falcon's side, plus the fact Falcon can kill Ganon fairly well, but wreckless mistakes cost Falcon 25%+ or a stock.

60:40 Falcon's favor.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

yah i agree w/ the 45/55 or 40/60 Falcon, Ganon has no combos, falcon can just easily to do A, A, to grab and try to juggle you. They both suffers w/ sucky approaches, but Ganon's approach is a little bit worser than Falcon's. Falcon's recovery is better than Ganon's cuz u can easily edgeguard Ganon better than Falcon. Ganon's needs to be on FD and BF cuz Falcon's is too gud on platforms to take down Ganon. Ganon's range is better than CF, lol duh, every1 knows that. In my opinion, Falcon can do sum tricky stuff, like mindgaming Ganon a lil bit. Falcon got the speed, defense, combos, approach, camping a lil bit if the Ganon don't camp him, recovery. Ganon got nothing but a lil camping if Falcon approaches him, range, and power. If the matchup is 50/50, im guessing that Ganon got better defense and let Falcon approaches to him all day w/o thinking of a plan.

 

[SaltyKracka]

This matchup goes to Ganon. Get it in your faces. Ganon's ground and air game is simply better. Falcon is short-ranged, laggy(easily stomp'd), and falls fast= punishable and juggle-able character. Ganon can eat him alive at every frame. All Ganon has to do is stomp every approach from the ground and uair every approach from the air, and all is well, since that completely shuts down Falcon's game.

**** Falcon's recovery by Tipmaning him every time he tries to recover, until you can just go up the ledge and let him die. If he goes for a Raptor Boost, bair and laugh in his face, or ledgehop dair and laugh even more. Have knowledge about Falcon's Jab Cancels, and know when to pursue or wait.

Falcon will mainly be on offense against Ganon, since safety and punishment are on Ganon's side, plus the fact Falcon can't kill Ganon with anything that can't be punished horribly outside of a strong bair, but reckless mistakes cost Falcon 25%+ or a stock.

60:40 Ganon's favor.

 

[Red-Blue]

I dunno, but the last pages have been about: "ganon > falcon cuz ganon can dtilt lets ignore everything else"

 

[Ray_Kalm]

This matchup goes to Ganon. Get it in your faces. Ganon's ground and air game is simply better. Falcon is short-ranged, laggy(easily stomp'd), and falls fast= punishable and juggle-able character. Ganon can eat him alive at every frame. All Ganon has to do is stomp every approach from the ground and uair every approach from the air, and all is well, since that completely shuts down Falcon's game.

"All Ganon has to do is stomp his every approach, and UAir every approach from the air." Wow, I didn't know this match-up was so simple. There's two things wrong with that. 1.) Falcon doesn't have to approach. 2.) Falcons don't directly run into stomps or UAirs.

The reason why Ganondorf "shouldn't" - note the keyword - approach in this match-up, is because he'll get flat out beat in every way, and he's safer if he doesn't. But, that doesn't mean that Falcon should approach you either, if they wanted they could just stall out the clock with their great jumps and maneuverability and win.

**** Falcon's recovery by Tipmaning him every time he tries to recover, until you can just go up the ledge and let him die. If he goes for a Raptor Boost, bair and laugh in his face, or ledgehop dair and laugh even more. Have knowledge about Falcon's Jab Cancels, and know when to pursue or wait.

You'll always need to space tipman properly to avoid getting grabbed by Falcon's Up + B, it's a grab move so it has insane priority, and when your doing that Falcon could jump backwards to avoid the tipman and then up + b on to the stage. So gimping him every time he tries to recover, isn't 100% true (though you should be able to get gimps when hanging from the ledge all the time, ledge drop > tip man, DJ > tip man).

Falcon on the other hand, doesn't need to worry about spacing at all (unless it's a ganoncide, but Falcon could just jump out of the way). Ganon can't DJ backwards since he'll be too far from the stage to recover, and Falcon wants you to dark dive him so he could UAir you out of it.

So, who has the better chance of making it back on to the stage here? You decide for yourself.

Falcon has more aerial speed, a higher double jump (which he can use the opposite way from the stage off stage to avoid gimp attempts), a recovery that has hitstun, Falcon doesn't have to worry as much about spacing, is better at recovering in general, and Ganon can't always gimp Falcon (when he's offstage).

Ganon has less aerial speed, a smaller second jump (which he can't use the opposite way from the stage off stage, otherwise he can't recover), dark dive has less horizontal range and it could be UAir out of, a decent Falcon should be able to gimp him whenever Ganon's offstage trying to recover, and tipman requires proper spacing for it to not get outprioritized.

Falcon will mainly be on offense against Ganon, since safety and punishment are on Ganon's side.

Safety and punishment is also on Falcon's side.

plus the fact Falcon can't kill Ganon with anything that can't be punished horribly outside of a strong bair.

Name me one kill move that Ganon has which can't be punished.

but reckless mistakes cost Falcon 25%+ or a stock.

Falcon's jab > to grab > to pummels > dthrow > mindgame (Ganon gets pretty limited after a dthrow) could do more than 35% damage, and Falcon could throw these out whenever he jabs > grab Ganon.

Ganon's N-air can hit characters below him, and it's one frame slower than up-air. Also, if you can constantly predict Ganon airdodging enough to always punish it, you need to play better Ganons.

This and what adumbrodeus said. Who's going to approach who is pointless in this discussion, it's about what the character can do once he gets through. Ganon can make more from his comboes onstage, and Falcon can do it better offstage.

When you compare the amount of damage Falcon does compared to Ganon's when one of them is juggling the other, yeah it's going to be insignificant. Falcon gets juggled just as easily as Ganon does once the combo starts.

Oh wait, Ganon could combo Falcon and Falcon can't combo Ganon? Falcon isn't as big as Ganondorf, so he isn't comboed as bad, and Falcon could just get rid of most combo attempts from Ganon in the air by double jumping, Ganon won't be able to catch him.

Why do you keep saying that Ganon can do "alot more damage" than Falcon in just a few moves? Ganon's DAir does 6% more than Falcons, is that why? Or that gerudo > DTilt does 21%? Other than those two moves (or strings), everything that Falcon has is on par, or VERY close to Ganon in terms of damage. UAirs do 13% each, Falcons BAir does 1% lower, his sweetspotted knee does 2% more, his up + B does 9% more, his grabs could do an even amount of damage if pummels are used correctly and so on. What's more is Falcon could strings tons of moves together on Ganon which could do plenty of damage, he could get a ton by just jab > grab alone.

 

[Sovereign]

BTW, Falcon has Utilt to combat your Dtilt with, and to **** your Ganoncides with.

To sum this all up, "Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you." 60:40 Falcon

Sad truth is, the Red Alloy can go even with Ganon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

BTW, Falcon has Utilt to combat your Dtilt with, and to **** your Ganoncides with.

To sum this all up, "Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you." 60:40 Falcon

Sad truth is, the Red Alloy can go even with Ganon.

Isn't Falcon's UTilt safe on Ganon's shield?

 

[noradseven]

Falcon wins this match, falcon can get life advantage play like a campy ***** and win, so p. much the same as all of ganon's matches.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Falcon wins this match, falcon can get life advantage play like a campy ***** and win, so p. much the same as all of ganon's matches.

This is one way Falcon could win. Speed, maneuverability, weight, and safe options out of shield is basically all you need to stall a timer, and Falcon has all of those. He's like a crappy version of a campy Wario.

 

[Player-3]

This matchup goes to Ganon. Get it in your faces. Ganon's ground and air game is simply better. Falcon is short-ranged, laggy(easily stomp'd), and falls fast= punishable and juggle-able character. Ganon can eat him alive at every frame. All Ganon has to do is stomp every approach from the ground and uair every approach from the air, and all is well, since that completely shuts down Falcon's game.

**** Falcon's recovery by Tipmaning him every time he tries to recover, until you can just go up the ledge and let him die. If he goes for a Raptor Boost, bair and laugh in his face, or ledgehop dair and laugh even more. Have knowledge about Falcon's Jab Cancels, and know when to pursue or wait.

Falcon will mainly be on offense against Ganon, since safety and punishment are on Ganon's side, plus the fact Falcon can't kill Ganon with anything that can't be punished horribly outside of a strong bair, but reckless mistakes cost Falcon 25%+ or a stock.

60:40 Ganon's favor.

this post is funny

 

[Sovereign]

Salty... if Falcon is short-ranged, what does that make Ganon? I fail to see how that is anywhere near a valid point. Ganon has little to no useful tools against Falcon, whether he does or does not approach.

Falcon's Utilt > Ganon's Dtilt

Ganon can shield and choke the Utilting Falcon, but Falcon's Utilt range ***** Ganon, whether he's recovering, going for better spacing, etc. There is nothing someone, as big and as slow as Ganon can do to stop it, except find an opening and strike, but Falcon's superior pressure game makes this hard for Ganon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Isn't Falcon's UTilt safe on Ganon's shield?

No, it isn't. It's only really safe if used as platform pressure.

 

[thexsunrosered]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRl6m01ur0k

this is why Ganon wins :D

He is aware of the matchup too. If you wanna say, "well he should have Uaired out of the thunderstorm," I adapted so that I made sure I was on the backside of him, making the hitbox unable to hit me and letting me continue the **** =]

 

[Player-3]

lol

im not gonna say he should have uaired
im gonna say he should stop rolling into you so much so he doesnt get hit by it

and its either wifi or that falcon did some really wack *** stupid things

no offense

 

[Sovereign]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRl6m01ur0k

this is why Ganon wins :D

He is aware of the matchup too. If you wanna say, "well he should have Uaired out of the thunderstorm," I adapted so that I made sure I was on the backside of him, making the hitbox unable to hit me and letting me continue the **** =]

Utter fail.

You're amazing and I want to play your Ganon, and you can record that fight. I promise you that I won't have to shield a Warlocke Punch.

That Falcon gets kudos for trying to string in UpB, but fails and loses more kudos for not knowing the range. When he had you on edge he should've Utilted, where he would've been safe from your Ganoncide.

 

[Player-3]

the only times you stomped him was when he rolled, which you punished accordingly

 

[Sovereign]

Look up:

Koskinator vs. Superboom 1/2/3
Watch the first two, and see what Ganon must do in order to win this matchup. Superboom plays an excellent Falcon against Kosk and is pressuring him amazingly well, racking up good amounts of damage. His few mistakes cost him, especially against a Ganon, like Koskinator. Look it up.

 

[Darky-Sama]

As a TL;DR version:

I think Captain Falcon vs Ganondorf is 60:40 // 55:45 - Falcon.

Reasons:
- Ganondorf is a large target, leaving him open for many of Falcon's follow up options.
- Falcon has greater speed, mobility and air time.
- Falcon has lagless attacks, which make punishing him difficult.
- Falcon's recovery is potentially better than Ganondorf's.
- Captain Falcon can tech chase Ganondorf offstage at low percents and edge hog a recovery.

Ganondorf isn't necessarily helpless in this match-up though. Captain Falcon's lack of projectiles does force either party to approach sometime or another, so it basically comes to who can land the first hit.

Captain Falcon has his follow-ups and down taunt.
Ganondorf has his kill potential and down air.


There's my TL;DR version of this match-up.

 

[stRIP]

- Captain Falcon can tech chase Ganondorf offstage at low percents and edge hog a recovery.

i lawld, this makes no sense. your post is bad, sry


and its easier for Ganon to gimp a Falcon, then gimping a Ganon as Falcon

 

[Sovereign]

i lawld, this makes no sense. your post is bad, sry


and its easier for Ganon to gimp a Falcon, then gimping a Ganon as Falcon

Well stRIP you're an amazing Ganon, so what have you had to do to beat a good Falcon. Did you approach, did you wait, or what? Let us know.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Red8, no videos of horrible Falcons.

 

[stRIP]

Well stRIP you're an amazing Ganon, so what have you had to do to beat a good Falcon. Did you approach, did you wait, or what? Let us know.

do i smell sarcasm?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay guys, since no one argued against my last post, It's about time I end this discussion.

60:40 Falcon's favor.

 

[Sovereign]

do i smell sarcasm?

No you don't, lol. I've seen you play, and know how good you are. You're in that smexy combo vid, "The Critical Touch" and I know you've gotten better since then.

 

[Red-Blue]

Lol at Ganons pretending Ganon is better than Falcon.
Lol at Falcons pretending it's anything beyond 55:45. (Imo, it's like... what? 51:49?)

They both suck, and won't meeting in serious competition. (srs in brol)

He's like a crappy version of a campy Wario.

I lol'd cause it's true.

You're in that smexy combo vid, "The Critical Touch" and I know you've gotten better since then.

Wow! You sure know his Ganon in-and-out then!

 

[Player-3]

falcon can gimp ganon soopar easy
:U

ganon can gimp falcon but not as easy due to falcons air speed and having more time to get close to edge before having to use a recovery option

 

[stRIP]

No you don't, lol. I've seen you play, and know how good you are. You're in that smexy combo vid, "The Critical Touch" and I know you've gotten better since then.

i lawld again

You cant analyse the skill of a player by watching his combos from a Combo Video. Every Noob is able to do a good combo if he understands the basics of the game

edit: sry 4 offtopic, btw.

 

[Z1GMA]

Okay guys, since no one argued against my last post, It's about time I end this discussion.

60:40 Falcon's favor.

40:60 Falcon favor !?

C'mon, Kalm. That's not right.
50:50... and 45:55 at worst.

 

[Player-3]

40:60 Falcon favor !?

C'mon, Kalm. That's not right.
50:50... and 45:55 at worst.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6


this

 

[Ray_Kalm]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6


this

That's what I meant.

Spoiler

W00t, Falcon has an advantage... and on Ganon.

 

[Z1GMA]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6
this

What about it?

 

[Sovereign]

i lawld again

You cant analyse the skill of a player by watching his combos from a Combo Video. Every Noob is able to do a good combo if he understands the basics of the game

edit: sry 4 offtopic, btw.

But AC Dair requires timing, button precision, and skill, some of which was shown. Combo vids show more skill than most people think, as some show knowledge of spacing and so forth. Only few clips might be considered luck.

@Z1GMA: 40:60 Falcon

Ganon's lacking more than Falcon, and Falcon only lacks power and weight. Ganon has to be defensive most of the fight, while Falcon applies heavy pressure. Ganon can only capitalize Falcon's mistakes/openings.

 

[PhantomX]

The only thing that puts this slightly in Falcon's favor and makes it annoying as well is the fact that up close, Ganon can do absolutely nothing to counter Falcon's jab, and with his speed he really doesn't have trouble getting in close. Ganon will kill and gimp Falcon a million times easier when it comes down to it, though.

EDIT: @seraphim, you realize your argument that some character that can only capitalize on mistakes/openings is bad is terrible? What do you think Wario is? He thrives on punishing any mistake or opening, and he's 3rd on the tier list.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

EDIT: @seraphim, you realize your argument that some character that can only capitalize on mistakes/openings is bad is terrible? What do you think Wario is? He thrives on punishing any mistake or opening, and he's 3rd on the tier list.

But, Ganon's whole metagame is to capitalize on mistakes and openings, Wario's isn't. I really liked how Seraphim summarized the match-up.

 

[Tonsana]

I´ve played LOTS of Ganon VS Falcon against Z1gma and I feel that the matchup is about 45-55 for Falcon.
Falcon has so much better jab and grabgame, witch is how to **** up ganon. BUT, if u get mindgamed you will be punished hard and get *****.

So, if you dont play with your head against a good ganon and only go all berserk with Falcon. He will kill you ^^

Again. 45-55 Falcon (maybe 50-50)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I´ve played LOTS of Ganon VS Falcon against Z1gma and I feel that the matchup is about 45-55 for Falcon.
Falcon has so much better jab and grabgame, witch is how to **** up ganon. BUT, if u get mindgamed you will be punished hard and get *****.

So, if you dont play with your head against a good ganon and only go all berserk with Falcon. He will kill you ^^

Again. 45-55 Falcon (maybe 50-50)

Who's advantage are you referring to?

 

[Tonsana]

Who's advantage are you referring to?

Captain Falcon.

 

[Sovereign]

But, Ganon's whole metagame is to capitalize on mistakes and openings, Wario's isn't. I really liked how Seraphim summarized the match-up.

<3 I mained Ganon some time ago, so I understand the trouble of dealing with Falcon, and others.

@PhantomX: I know a Wario that, yes, does punish mistakes accordingly, but is aggressive as hell. Wario has tons of approach options while Ganon doesn't. Ganon normally has to wait and/or bait for a mistake, where he can rack a good 30%+ on the opponent. All of Ganon's match-ups don't have to be like this. Ganon can be the aggressor, but must do so after punishing continuous mistakes. It will intimidate the opponent, forcing them to defense where Ganon can eat them alive.