"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Roager]

Also his ability to turn the match around with an offstage side b matters quite some in the falcon vs ganon matchup.

You are aware that Falcon's side-B can do that also, yes?

 

[A2ZOMG]

BAir's only safe on block, other than that it's a very unsafe move.

It's pretty safe autocanceled in general. It's a great anti-air at least, which means it stops most of Falcon's approaches.

Retreating thunderstorm is NOT safe. Excluding the 7 frames of jump lag, DAir starts at frame 20-21, ends at frame 44, and even the autocancel version has some landing lag. That gives Falcon enough time (35 or so frames of lag) for a run dash grab or dash attack.

You're terrible at numbers.

D-air starts on frame 16. Ganon's jump is 7 frames, meaning D-air starts on frame 23.

Also, autocanceled D-air has only...13 FRAMES OF ENDING LAG.

Seriously, stop giving me BS.

Same could be said for Ganon.

Now you're just being silly.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

It's pretty safe autocanceled in general. It's a great anti-air at least, which means it stops most of Falcon's approaches.

You're terrible at numbers.

D-air starts on frame 16. Ganon's jump is 7 frames, meaning D-air starts on frame 23.

Also, autocanceled D-air has only...13 FRAMES OF ENDING LAG.

Seriously, stop giving me BS.

You're terrible at numbers.

D-air starts on frame 16. Ganon's jump is 7 frames, meaning D-air starts on frame 23.

Yeah, I confused myself a bit there. Retreating thunderstorm could be punished around the ending frames.

Now you're just being silly.

What? All of Ganon's moves are more, if not equally, as punishable as Falcons.

 

[Zeallyx]

sorry

but no
|:

Play better ganons. Ganon DOES have the upper hand in this matchup, even if it is just by a very little.

You are aware that Falcon's side-B can do that also, yes?

No it can't. Ganon can recover after a RB spike till a percent he shouldn't be living anyway.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What? All of Ganon's moves are more, if not equally, as punishable as Falcons.

Ganondorf's B-air and D-air are significantly safer on the autocancel. Ganondorf's D-tilt is less punishable. U-smash ending lag is a LOT less punishable.

It's not nearly as simple as you're trying to make it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Play better ganons. Ganon DOES have the upper hand in this matchup, even if it is just by a very little.



No it can't. Ganon can recover after a RB spike till a percent he shouldn't be living anyway.

You do know that ganoncide kills Ganon along with the opponent too, right? Falcon's aerial forward + b should KO Ganon if the Falcon edgeguards.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganondorf's B-air and D-air are safer on the autocancel. Ganondorf's D-tilt is less punishable. U-smash ending lag is a LOT less punishable.

It's not nearly as simple as you're trying to make it.

Falcon has his jab, which is safe almost in every situation, his Up + B, NAir, and a properly spaced UAir.

Edit: Didn't know this was a double post.

 

[Zeallyx]

You do know that ganoncide kills Ganon along with the opponent too, right? Falcon's aerial forward + b should KO Ganon if the Falcon edgeguards.

..

In short:
1. ganon second stock high percent, falcon second stock low percent = ganoncide = useful.
2. offstage knee is far from always an option. Due to positioning and ganons up b's 'latching on' feature, and ganoncide when falcon has the upperhand.

Remember, mindgames aren't a part of a matchup discussion.

And guys

Nah nevermind.

Also, kalm, when ganon shields falcons jab, which does happen, ganons jab can prevail over falcons second and third jab.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon has his jab, which is safe almost in every situation, his Up + B, NAir, and a properly spaced UAir.

Edit: Didn't know this was a double post.

Falcon's Jab can be outprioritized soundly by many attacks. F-smash and DA ignore it completely for example.

His Up-B is not a safe attack. It's only good out of shield if you don't space well.

His N-air is only safe on block if he has godly spacing, otherwise it's an unsafe attack. Much less safe than Ganon's B-air in this matchup for that matter, since Ganondorf has several high-damage moves that just plow through it.

Good luck properly spacing U-airs with Falcon all the time. Ganondorf can do this more easily since his U-air actually hits below him, unlike Falcon's. Reverse U-air IS safe on block by the way.

Yes, Falcon can do some stuff more safely, but that stuff has almost no reward and/or tends to be very situational at best. That's why Ganondorf wins this matchup.

 

[Player-3]

..

In short:
1. ganon second stock high percent, falcon second stock low percent = ganoncide = useful.

.....

if the falcon runs off stage and allows the ganon to suicide him, he deserves to lose

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Falcon's Jab can be outprioritized soundly by many attacks. F-smash and DA ignore it completely for example.

His Up-B is not a safe attack. It's only good out of shield if you don't space well.

His N-air is only safe on block if he has godly spacing, otherwise it's an unsafe attack. Much less safe than Ganon's B-air in this matchup for that matter, since Ganondorf has several high-damage moves that just plow through it.

Good luck properly spacing U-airs with Falcon all the time. Ganondorf can do this more easily since his U-air actually hits below him, unlike Falcon's. Reverse U-air IS safe on block by the way.

Yes, Falcon can do some stuff more safely, but that stuff has almost no reward and/or tends to be very situational at best. That's why Ganondorf wins this matchup.

His N-air is only safe on block if he has godly spacing, otherwise it's an unsafe attack. Much less safe than Ganon's B-air in this matchup for that matter, since Ganondorf has several high-damage moves that just plow through it.

Falcon could avoid getting grabbed after the first hit of NAir with proper spacing, and it isn't that hard to do. Falcon has a BAir too, one that comes out faster and actually hits everyone.

Good luck properly spacing U-airs with Falcon all the time. Ganondorf can do this more easily since his U-air actually hits below him, unlike Falcon's. Reverse U-air IS safe on block by the way.

It's not as hard as your making it sound. Ganon can do it more easily, but will always fall to the ground right after, making it totally pointless. Not only does Falcon get more opportunities to try and space his UAir, he could actually do more stuff after it. Getting a reverse UAir on block will not happen in the first place.

Yes, Falcon can do some stuff more safely, but that stuff has almost no reward and/or tends to be very situational at best. That's why Ganondorf wins this matchup.

Combos? Strings?

 

[Player-3]

Combos? Strings?

this

ganons large and has no really fast moves when hes getting bounced around by falcons uairs and bairs

his uair is the only move really fast enough, and if the falcons smart he will try to juggle you with uairs from behind

airdodging is kinda pointless also, if your juggling a ganon your going to expect a airdodge, in which case you just wait and punish

if you think ganon has the upper hand you need to play better falcons

ive played good ganons, its 55-45 falcons favor, close enough to neutral it doesnt matter though

 

[Zeallyx]

.....

if the falcon runs off stage and allows the ganon to suicide him, he deserves to lose

You seem to forget that one of the things the pro-falcon side has as a backup is his offstage game, then why is it wrong to abuse this, as falcon's offstage game's indeed effective, especially on ganon. But as I have said before, falcon is never safe, not when he approaches, and not when stringing moves together, and the combo's he does have on ganon are minimal. Then when a falcon 'runs offstage' does he deserve to lose? No. He's playing his character correctly, and when ganon does that too, falcon has the dissadvantage.

 

[Player-3]

You seem to forget that one of the things the pro-falcon side has as a backup is his offstage game, then why is it wrong to abuse this, as falcon's offstage game's indeed effective, especially on ganon. But as I have said before, falcon is never safe, not when he approaches, and not when stringing moves together, and the combo's he does have on ganon are minimal. Then when a falcon 'runs offstage' does he deserve to lose? No. He's playing his character correctly, and when ganon does that too, falcon has the dissadvantage.

no


i said

when a falcon runs offstage and allows himself to be side-bed, he deserves to lose

not going offstage

flub knee beats ganons aerial side b, ganoncides should NOT happen

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You seem to forget that one of the things the pro-falcon side has as a backup is his offstage game, then why is it wrong to abuse this, as falcon's offstage game's indeed effective, especially on ganon. But as I have said before, falcon is never safe, not when he approaches, and not when stringing moves together, and the combo's he does have on ganon are minimal. Then when a falcon 'runs offstage' does he deserve to lose? No. He's playing his character correctly, and when ganon does that too, falcon has the dissadvantage.

Falcon's never safe? You do know that we're discussing Ganon here, don't you? He's never safe either.

and not when stringing moves together, and the combo's he does have on ganon are minimal.

Er, Ganon is the easiest character to combo in brawl (arguable with King D3). He's tall, big, and has no good combo/chain breaking move. He doesn't even have the weight to back that up.

So, how again are Falcon's combos on Ganon minimal?

 

[Player-3]

Ganondorf's B-air and D-air are significantly safer on the autocancel. Ganondorf's D-tilt is less punishable. U-smash ending lag is a LOT less punishable.

It's not nearly as simple as you're trying to make it.

just saw this post

just to address:

falcons shouldnt use usmash that much

dtilt yeah

falcons bair can AC at any point during the move, making it MUCH more versatile than yours

falcons dair is a good kill move, and auto cancelling it puts you in a good position when you hit shields, a very good position since you can do a ac dair over their shield and turn around jab the shield and then sit in yours and wait for a reaction to punish

 

[Kishin]

I'd agree on a 55-45 Falcon. Ganondorf has range, power, and priority and can shut down Falcon's approaches. Falcon has speed though, and with that, can get past Ganon's defense.

 

[A2ZOMG]

falcons bair can AC at any point during the move, making it MUCH more versatile than yours

Don't BS me. Seriously. If this is a joke, it's not funny.

Falcon's autocanceled B-air doesn't hit short characters either. And waiting for it to hit short characters makes it punishable on block. Unfortunately there isn't any frame data on Falcon, but my experience with autocanceling this is that the window isn't any better than that of Ganon's B-air.

falcons dair is a good kill move, and auto cancelling it puts you in a good position when you hit shields, a very good position since you can do a ac dair over their shield and turn around jab the shield and then sit in yours and wait for a reaction to punish

I'm pretty sure DA out of shield punishes it. Considering Falcon's D-air doesn't have the crazy low ending lag that Ganon's has.

And lol at saying D-air is a good kill move. It's only "good" at killing offstage.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

And lol at saying D-air is a good kill move. It's only "good" at killing offstage.

Ganon can't kill horizontally from the center of the stage that good either, if the move isn't FSmash. Ganon kills faster and more reliably the closer to the edge of a stage he is.

Edit: For the record, besides being more versatile and faster, Falcon's BAir has the same amount of killing power as ours.

 

[Player-3]

Don't BS me. Seriously. If this is a joke, it's not funny.

Falcon's autocanceled B-air doesn't hit short characters either. And waiting for it to hit short characters makes it punishable on block. Unfortunately there isn't any frame data on Falcon, but my experience with autocanceling this is that the window isn't any better than that of Ganon's B-air.

I'm pretty sure DA out of shield punishes it. Considering Falcon's D-air doesn't have the crazy low ending lag that Ganon's has.

And lol at saying D-air is a good kill move. It's only "good" at killing offstage.

nope

it is a kill move

and his bair can hit short characters

this whole post is silly

falcons dair auto cancels over a shield.
which means, when you LAND there is 0 lag

3 frames later, you can jab

if they tried to do something oos, your jab would poke them, in which case you grab or jab again

 

[A2ZOMG]

falcons dair auto cancels over a shield.
which means, when you LAND there is 0 lag

3 frames later, you can jab

if they tried to do something oos, your jab would poke them, in which case you grab or jab again

Sorry, but I know you're just wrong here. Not only are you visualizing shield drop advantage COMPLETELY wrong, you're ignoring the fact Falcon's D-air has more aerial lag than Ganondorf's.

Before Falcon lands, Ganondorf can drop shield and DA.

 

[Player-3]

Sorry, but I know you're just wrong here. Not only are you visualizing shield drop advantage COMPLETELY wrong, you're ignoring the fact Falcon's D-air has more aerial lag than Ganondorf's.

Before Falcon lands, Ganondorf can drop shield and DA.

no
he cant

you have frame data to back it up?


ill out-**** you all day son

 

[A2ZOMG]

no
he cant

you have frame data to back it up?


ill out-**** you all day son

The Falcon's don't have complete frame data.

There are a few facts about Falcon's D-air however that we do know, and we can compare them to Ganon's D-air

-Falcon's D-air hits 2 frames earlier
-Falcon's D-air ends later, and Falcon's shorthop lasts longer.

What this means is that it has more ending lag than Ganondorf's D-air. I'd say from personal experience it has around 20 frames of ending lag (compared to Ganondorf's 13), while DA out of shield takes about 17-18 frames.

 

[Player-3]

The Falcon's don't have complete frame data.

There are a few facts about Falcon's D-air however that we do know, and we can compare them to Ganon's D-air

-Falcon's D-air hits 2 frames earlier
-Falcon's D-air ends later, and Falcon's shorthop lasts longer.

What this means is that it has more ending lag than Ganondorf's D-air. I'd say from personal experience it has around 20 frames of ending lag, while DA out of shield takes about 17-18 frames.

yeah

cuz we all know when you hit a shield with falcons dair the stun only lasts 6 frames

 

[thexsunrosered]

Sorry, but I know you're just wrong here. Not only are you visualizing shield drop advantage COMPLETELY wrong, you're ignoring the fact Falcon's D-air has more aerial lag than Ganondorf's.

Before Falcon lands, Ganondorf can drop shield and DA.

thats really hard though, and not practical in the slightest

 

[A2ZOMG]

yeah

cuz we all know when you hit a shield with falcons dair the stun only lasts 6 frames

Shieldstun is pretty much always equal to or slightly less than shieldhitlag. It's pretty pointless to bring up that subject since generally speaking, sheildstun doesn't give you an advantage on shield.

 

[Player-3]

if a ganon does a da to me afte i ac dair his shield, i will believe you

so

back to real matchup discussion

falcon can just camp ganon by holding a and press l and r at the right times

also jumping away from gerudo but other than that yeah

 

[A2ZOMG]

The way you beat Ganon is by shielding and pressing down (spotdodge) at the right times when he approaches. Attacking randomly is only good if you can space some attacks with insanely good range.

Falcon however doesn't have a very "real" way of forcing the approach, and his reward is significantly lower than that of most characters.

 

[Player-3]

uh

yeah he does

he stands still
????

 

[Roager]

uh

yeah he does

he stands still
????

So then Ganon stands still. "forcing" the approach is like Fox laserspam. By not approaching, you take damage. Or have to avoid it. stuff like that. Sitting still is more a game of chicken. You're not forcing it, except that sooner or later, the time limit runs out.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So then Ganon stands still. "forcing" the approach is like Fox laserspam. By not approaching, you take damage. Or have to avoid it. stuff like that. Sitting still is more a game of chicken. You're not forcing it, except that sooner or later, the time limit runs out.

That still doesn't force Falcon to approach.

 

[Roager]

That still doesn't force Falcon to approach.

Kinda my point. There is no way for either party to FORCE an approach. granted, one or the other usually will approach, but that's kinda beside the point.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Kinda my point. There is no way for either party to FORCE an approach. granted, one or the other usually will approach, but that's kinda beside the point.

Yeah, it basically comes down to who could approach BETTER and FASTER. That award goes to Falcon. Both players could cancel out eachother's approaches with their shield and grab alone (Falcon's grab happens to have more range by the way).

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yeah, it basically comes down to who could approach BETTER and FASTER. That award goes to Falcon. Both players could cancel out eachother's approaches with their shield and grab alone (Falcon's grab happens to have more range by the way).

*still waiting for an answer*


Even if we assume you're right, here's the problem, if both players cancel each others' approaches on reaction, they will, that essentially makes it a game with no winners, so both can't approach, that suggests neutral.

 

[Player-3]

yes i already said it is neutral

55-45 falcon is neutral, but since falcons recovery options agaisnt ganon are better than ganons recovery options agaisnt falcon is why its tilted like so

 

[Ray_Kalm]

*still waiting for an answer*


Even if we assume you're right, here's the problem, if both players cancel each others' approaches on reaction, they will, that essentially makes it a game with no winners, so both can't approach, that suggests neutral.

Where does the recovery part go? and combos?

 

[Z1GMA]

Since Ganon has slightly greater range than Falcon (Basicly our Dtilt), we can, at certain times, force stress him into approaching us.
Not by much, but at least a little bit.

However... None of them can effectively force an approach.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Since Falcon has far greater speed, jumps and maneuverability than Ganon, they can, at certain times, force stress him into approaching.
Not by much, but at least a little bit.

However... None of them can effectively force an approach.

Fixed your post.

 

[Acedude55]

All I know is Ganon has this on Falcon.

Range, and power.

I'd discuss this out but im not feeling too well, don't even feel like typing alot.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Where does the recovery part go? and combos?

I'm talking about prior, saying that Falcon has better approaches is irrelevant if both character's approaches are beaten on reaction by their opponent.