"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[A2ZOMG]

That will put Ganon in a much worse place to recover, and CF could just fake a edge-guard to DJ then grab the ledge.

Kalm...don't be stupid. That's not how it works at all. Falcon's options for successfully edgeguarding Ganondorf are very limited when you DI well. You can still make it onstage if you want to after doing a descending N-air offstage.

The same can't be said for Falcon, whose aerials are in general worse offstage, forcing airdodges or low recoveries.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Kalm...don't be stupid. That's not how it works at all. Falcon's options for successfully edgeguarding Ganondorf are very limited when you DI well. You can still make it onstage if you want to after doing a descending N-air offstage.

The same can't be said for Falcon, whose aerials are in general worse offstage, forcing airdodges or low recoveries.

I'm being stupid? It seems like you're being stupid by stating random facts over and over again without any analysis or back-up proof of them being true.

Once again, that will put Ganon in a much worse place to recover, CF could just fake a edge-guard to DJ then grab the ledge. He could move around and stay in the air more than Ganon, and he has faster options, so I don't see where you're getting that from.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I actually use N-air a lot when recovering. N-air has the priority to deter any of Falcon's edgeguard attempts. And no, it doesn't put Ganondorf in a bad position like you suggest. By the time N-air ends, you will be in the perfect position to either land on stage, or grab the edge.

Seriously, N-air offstage is VERY good for recovering as long as you DI.

I'm telling you, I play against a good Captain Falcon. My friend TonyGuacamole is legit.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I actually use N-air a lot when recovering. N-air has the priority to deter any of Falcon's edgeguard attempts. And no, it doesn't put Ganondorf in a bad position like you suggest. By the time N-air ends, you will be in the perfect position to either land on stage, or grab the edge.

Seriously, N-air offstage is VERY good for recovering as long as you DI.

I'm telling you, I play against a good Captain Falcon. My friend TonyGuacamole is legit.

So you're saying, Tony Gaucamole always goes directly for Ganon's NAir during his edge-guard attempts? It doesn't work like that against Falcons who know how to DJ right before Ganon's NAir, stall a bit, then counter attack.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So you're saying, Tony Gaucamole always goes directly for Ganon's NAir during his edge-guard attempts? It doesn't work like that against Falcons who know how to DJ right before Ganon's NAir, stall a bit, then counter attack.

N-air has low aerial ending lag. By the time it ends, you have the option to go for the ledge or stage immediately.

Depending on high up you are, the option of fastfalling N-air makes it VERY hard to react to.

Falcon doesn't have a surefire way to edgeguard Ganon when he comes from above.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

N-air has low aerial ending lag. By the time it ends, you have the option to go for the ledge or stage immediately.

Depending on high up you are, the option of fastfalling N-air makes it VERY hard to react to.

Falcon doesn't have a surefire way to edgeguard Ganon when he comes from above.

The second hit of NAir isn't a threat to Falcon, since he'll be above Ganon, he could use that time to do something, possibly spike.

 

[Z1GMA]

A well timed DJ Uair (likely with the disjointed part) from Ganon beats the Flup Knee Gimp any day of the week.

However, Falcon can (as mentioned before) Fake Out towards Ganon, while Ganon's recovering to mess thing up Big Time for him.

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

And punishing Ganon's AC Dair on reaction, with Falcon's Usmash, just isn't possible.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A well timed DJ Uair (likely with the disjointed part) from Ganon beats the Flip Knee Gimp any day of the week.

However, Falcon can (as mentioned before) Fake Out towards Ganon, while Ganon's recovering to mess thing up Big Time for him.

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

And punishing Ganon's AC Dair on reaction, with Falcon's Usmash, just isn't possible.

I think it was Player 3 who brought USmash up, right? Well yeah, you shouldn't use USmash to punish moves anyways, especially when you have like the rest of your moveset as a option.

 

[Sovereign]

I personally would intercept Ganon, and get caught by his UpB, so that I can Uair coming out of it, knocking Ganon further from the ledge. It's actually safer and easier than it sounds.

Some of you might think I'm crazy but Ganon's UpB, hit or miss is the worst, since he can be punished on both ends by Falcon. The only thing most Falcons will have a hard time with is Thunderstorm and Choke.

 

[Player-3]

Lol or falcon could hold a and press l if he thinks ganons gonna approach

And homnestly the way u guys r talking, predicing a dair wont be hard lol

Falcon players should >_> have brains, not gonna run into nairs lol

We can save our dj too

And you can grab ganon out of his choke

 

[Clai]

The only way justice can be served in the universe is if the two manliest characters in Brawl have an even struggle.

Now let's see how I can make that happen:

--Choke is murder for Falcons. At early percentages you can d-tilt out of Choke for numerous comboing options, and at late percentages you can kill with Dash Attack out of choke. It's just a great move to have against him.
-Our aerials outrange his aerials (N-air in particular is great for Ganon in this matchup), so as long as you use them conservatively Ganon should be alright, but don't just throw out attacks as Falcon does have great speed to punish open frames.
-Gimping Falcon with Ganon can be done almost as easily as Falcon can gimp Ganon, as we do have the further-reaching tipman to abuse.

I don't know how specific moves match up like Ganon's F-air against Falcon's up-tilt, but that might also be worth mentioning.

Really, seeing as our movesets are nearly identical and we're using our strengths to the fullest (Falcon's speed and Ganon's ability to punish and damage like crazy), I don't get how this matchup can't be 50-50.

My favorite thing to do with Falcon is to use a whole bunch of jab-cancels and then pull off a "Show me your moves!" taunt if the opponent is jumping away. For the love of evil, do not get affected by this taunt. Ganon's manliness is what keeps him going and if he gets taunted at such close range, you're probably done for.

 

[†Slader7†]

Its the thunderstorm and choke that Falcon has problems with. Other than that, Falcon's jabs would be our savior. Falcon also has a pseudo-CG on Ganon. As for gimping, the suicide move is not to be ignored. If Ganon gets us in his up-b, we could always do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJy_Txvs74 - thanks to tkontk

 

[Sovereign]

Its the thunderstorm and choke that Falcon has problems with. Other than that, Falcon's jabs would be our savior. Falcon also has a pseudo-CG on Ganon. As for gimping, the suicide move is not to be ignored. If Ganon gets us in his up-b, we could always do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJy_Txvs74 - thanks to tkontk

Slader I already mentioned that. It's pretty common knowledge. If Falcon and Ganon are suspended above ground, Falcon can Uair out of Ganon's Dive at anytime.

 

[Breezy]

Who are you and when was this tourney lmao.

Obviously, I'm Breezy.
Tournament was November 15, 2008

http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=3267

Again, gg.

 

[Willz]

Bringing up a tourney that was nearly a year ago lol.

 

[Player-3]

ganons aerial side b is bad agaisnt falcon

Flub knee ***** it
Grab beats grounded side b
Or you could run away from it cuz ur fast
Why are the falcons posting seem like they have 0 matchup xp and are theorycrafting

 

[:034:]

Aerial side B IS bad, even if you get grabbed you can retaliate like... immediately. With a get-up attack. >:

Or you could run away, come back, knee because we're laggy

 

[SaltyKracka]

ganons aerial side b is bad agaisnt falcon

Flub knee ***** it
Grab beats grounded side b
Or you could run away from it cuz ur fast
Why are the falcons posting seem like they have 0 matchup xp and are theorycrafting

You're saying to grab us out of FC. That's theorycrafting if I've ever seen it.

 

[:034:]

Reverse pivot grab anyone?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Reverse pivot grab anyone?

Falcon has the worst pivot grab in the entire game.

While it is true Ganondorf can be grabbed out of Flame Choke, the window for doing it on reaction is pretty strict if you're not named DDD or a tether grabber, so in the actual matchup of Ganondorf vs Falcon, this should rarely, if ever happen.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Falcon has the worst pivot grab in the entire game.

While it is true Ganondorf can be grabbed out of Flame Choke, the window for doing it on reaction is pretty strict if you're not named DDD or a tether grabber, so in the actual matchup of Ganondorf vs Falcon, this should rarely, if ever happen.

Why would Falcon ever want to grab Flame Choke when he could SH backwards to knee on reaction, anyways?

 

[Ochobobo]

Uhh Triforce of Knowledge? lol That's too close to an already existing Triforce, Zelda boards are filing a lawsuit now.

 

[:034:]

Why would Falcon ever want to grab Flame Choke when he could SH backwards to knee on reactions, anyways?

It looks flashier :v

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Uhh Triforce of Knowledge? lol That's too close to an already existing Triforce, Zelda boards are filing a lawsuit now.

Knowledge is power.

 

[Z1GMA]

It'd be even flashier if Falcon up+b'd Ganon's Gerudo D:

 

[Sovereign]

UpB can shut Ganon's Thunderstorming down, if one ever attempts to approach or bait with it, since Falcon Dive is at its best when it catches someone from the sides. The grab range on it is bigger than a simple one and the knockback and damage is rewarding enough.

I forget, but does Flame Choke eat the Falcon Kick?

EDIT: Before confusion ensues, I meant baiting or approaching with Thunderstorming, not Falcon Dive...

 

[weinner]

I believe a Flame Choke grabs Falcon out of a Falcon Kick, IIRC.

 

[Sovereign]

I believe a Flame Choke grabs Falcon out of a Falcon Kick, IIRC.

Okay... now that I think it about it, I think it does too. Ganon's reaching forward, and the grab box is going to collide with Falcon's hit box/body part, causing Falcon to be grabbed.

I still think that this matchup is in Falcon's favor, only by a small margin, due to Ganon's size, which makes it hella easy to UpB him off the ground, if a Falcon so chooses to use the move. Falcon's ability to be versatile is what gives him the adds to his advantage over Ganon. Ganon can only do so much before Falcon begins to take control over the match, and if the Falcon's been dominating, there's little Ganon can do to change it.

 

[Koskinator]

stfu i **** all falcons

 

[SaltyKracka]

You **** everybody, though. However, it's only you who can make them like it.

 

[Z1GMA]

Falcon's are afraid of Kosk's Ganon | }

 

[Sovereign]

Falcon's are afraid of Kosk's Ganon | }

Not me... I've seen it, and I want a piece of it. It should be Kosk who is afraid of Falcon's nipples and his knee, and most of all... wait for it... ... ... his Dtaunt, YESZ!

 

[Player-3]

You're saying to grab us out of FC. That's theorycrafting if I've ever seen it.

i was just stating it did

didnt say you had to

geez you one salty kracka bro

I believe a Flame Choke grabs Falcon out of a Falcon Kick, IIRC.

who uses falcon kick to approach

stfu i **** all falcons

dont make me take off my belt

 

[Sovereign]

who uses falcon kick to approach *looks at sig.* I do bish.

P-3 you're trying to implementing your own playstyle as the metagame for the average or above average Falcon, and it ain't workin'. To each his own.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So, what's the average match-up we're agreeing on? 40:60 - 45:55, Falcon's favor?

 

[Player-3]

approaching with falcon kick is bad

just
bad


55:45 falcons favor imo kalm

 

[adumbrodeus]

And, where's my frame data?


I'm sorry, but before we can call this, we need to have hard evidence of exactly where dtilt is safe on block against falcon, this is extremely important because depending on how large it is, it means a forced approach or not (in other words, my earlier analysis still applies if there's a large enough margin of error).



This is important if we want closure for this match-up, no "likes", hard frame test.


Also, I need debug menu...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Test it yourself, Adum.

Anyways, Player-3, I'll go with that. You guys should discuss us next in your match-up thread, and get this bull**** of Ganon having an advantage over with.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Test it yourself, Adum.

No wii available to test right now, won't be able to till at least monday night, let alone one that I can frametest with.


Basically, we'd need to keep the topic open until then, I think we'd all prefer getting this over and done with sooner rather then later.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

No wii available to test right now, won't be able to till at least monday night, let alone one that I can frametest with.


Basically, we'd need to keep the topic open until then, I think we'd all prefer getting this over and done with sooner rather then later.

You don't need frame data, just another human player to grab you out of DTilt. You can ask someone else to test it since you don't really seem to be trusting me.

DTilt doesn't force approach, Falcons will never always have their shields up right infront of you. Also, I don't know why I didn't mention this before but, DTilt should never hit Falcon's shield, 10-11 frames of start-up gives Falcon the perfect amount of time to powershield. http://javascript<b></b>: leoHighlightsIFrameClose();