"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[A2ZOMG]

Thanks, I'm not proud of it.

At any rate, please prove me wrong in some tournament. If Ganondorf somehow starts placing really well by himself, I'll be relieved...until then, I'm just going to be depressed.

 

[PhantomX]

Also, going back to b-air, I just realized how much more every Ganon needs to be using this. It's great range, great priority, and great shield pushback along with it's decent speed make it pretty useful for spacing. Screw ACing it, just learn how to pinpoint it. I mean if it hits a certain opponent even if you AC it, go for it; but other than that, throw out FJd aerials into b-airs on the way down, DJ after the FJ then b-air to mix it up a bit. Just keep your opponent guessing all while your aim is good. The shield pushback itself is like equal to f-air's. Plus, the priority is enough to power through so much. I've been testing against a lot of people and it works out well. I know Kalm uses a decent amount of b-air, but I need moar b-air from the rest of you.

Backair and upair are my bread and butter, along with the occasional dair and fair. I really find those two moves to be exceedingly safer than anything else in Ganon's arsenal.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I used to be a fan of spacing B-airs and I know of mindgames where you just do FJB-air -> B-air and it hits grounded people. I really don't like B-air very much regardless.

U-air is good, and actually able to hit shorter opponents sometimes even when ACed.

 

[Technodeath]

Bair and Uair are my two most used abilities out of his moveset along with side B and Dtilt

 

[stRIP]

Bair and Uair are my two most used abilities out of his moveset along with side B and Dtilt

This matchup is 80:20 in Samus advantage

Lrn2powershield

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just saying because I play a Samus a lot:

7/3, 8/2, doesn't make a huge difference, but if you powershield, it's possible to get in and do stuff, and then you can juggle her and KO her MUCH earlier than she can KO you (ignoring her ability to edgeguard anyhow). As spectacular as her recovery is, it's not going to stop her from getting KOed if you land a D-air, which can be pretty viable if she's in range. Tipmans from what I can tell however are not very useful on Samus.

In BBrawl it's the same matchup...except her KO power doesn't suck anymore.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Just saying because I play a Samus a lot:

7/3, 8/2, doesn't make a huge difference, but if you powershield, it's possible to get in and do stuff, and then you can juggle her and KO her MUCH earlier than she can KO you (ignoring her ability to edgeguard anyhow). As spectacular as her recovery is, it's not going to stop her from getting KOed if you land a D-air, which can be pretty viable if she's in range. Tipmans from what I can tell however are not very useful on Samus.

In BBrawl it's the same matchup...except her KO power doesn't suck anymore.

Juggling Samus is easier said than done. If you get within her range, the most hits you'll land are 2. No more no less.

80/20 Samus.

 

[Xyro77]

Guys, does the match-up really need to be re-talked about?

80-20(favor samus)

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Would you guys still say the Bowser and Ganon match-up is 45:55 after this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeOv...o/video.aspx?id=21500&feature=player_embedded

 

[PhantomX]

I like how he says Extended CG, but Bowser's True Pivot is actually sliding him slightly backwards, meaning if he executed perfectly it could be an infinite.

 

[Big O]

I doubt that is an infinite. You can force air breaks with good timing and the fact that you can't buffer reverse pivot grabs makes the timing for Bowser very impractical. It does pitiful damage too so even if they do it a few times in a row it won't do much.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Ray Kalm maybe if you came to Havoc in the Hammer we could have had our money match to get a better idea of the matchup

Grab release pivot grab isn't an infinite because Bowser's pummel isn't fast enough to force a ground release

 

[Ray_Kalm]

::Edited::

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Double post, but who cares.

This is how I fight a Samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGzgXoza23I

Powershield > Powershield > Powershield > Roll backwards > Powershield again > air-dodge > Powershield > Powershield > ****.

 

[TP]

Bowser's got an RPG GR infinite. Whoopie.

That ****'s freaking impossible to do right. You need to do a perfect RPG every time, and you don't know when exactly the opponent will break out, of if it will even be a ground release.

If I wanted to put that much effort into an infinite, I would main ICs.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Bowser's got an RPG GR infinite. Whoopie.

That ****'s freaking impossible to do right. You need to do a perfect RPG every time, and you don't know when exactly the opponent will break out, of if it will even be a ground release.

If I wanted to put that much effort into an infinite, I would main ICs.

Then, why do you hype chainchoke up so much? Isn't that "freaken impossible" as well?

 

[thexsunrosered]

stop the violence

 

[mars16]

What I think Ganon got on Bowser is alittle more power and speed and smaller size but not by much.
What he does not got on Bowser to me is range and weight.

 

[TP]

Then, why do you hype chainchoke up so much? Isn't that "freaken impossible" as well?

I started the whole Chainchoke ordeal, so I'm extremely biased. I won't pretend otherwise.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

We're moving on to Zero Suit Samus.

 

[Z1GMA]

ZSS isn't that nasty.
I believe she's got a CG on us from 0% to like 40%.

One good thing is that when she jumps, you get plenty much time to prepare for a Landchase, cause even when she's Short Hopping, she goes crazy high - Making landchasing a bit easier.
If you shield her SH -> [aerial], the chance of successfully punishing her with a iDA, is pretty good.

She'll connect with her Dsmash on us more than she does Vs most other chars - resulting in 35+% damage, every time.

Her disjointers aren't too annoying, except for maybe the gun.

Uair Gimping works well if she's been sent out at a low trajectory.

Unfortunately, she can mess with us pretty much during our recovery.
A well timed Dsmash at the ledge, of hers, will get us in our Up+b
pretty much every time -> Stagespike ;\

30 : 70

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Zero Suit is basically the same as vs G&W. Wall of priority that's super safe and impossible to gimp.

Although, her Forward-B is powershieldable on reaction, which helps.

In general, much of the matchup is learning curve. She has a lot of stuff that can be easily defended against on reaction (lrn2powershield), although she's a pain to approach. Oh and she combos Ganon to hell of course. Stay between the range of her Forward-B and Jab, and opportunities to punish will happen.

65/35 or 7/3 ZSS. Although honestly, I have a feeling that the matchup gets better the more experience you have in it. ZSS is a pretty limited character that really doesn't have an approach, so learning to defend against her staple spacing options in general shuts her down.

If I recall, Wizkick beats her U-smash.

 

[PK-ow!]

Predictable Zamuses HAVE TO DIE. I have no doubt that the world over is populated with intermediate-level Zamuses that have learned gimmicks, and they get far, and/but the only way to stop them is to just predict them.


Frame 1 Jab + Fast dash attack = sad times.

Now, there's something you can do with her Side-B... if you clank it in a special way... you seem to be able to act before her. I don't suppose the best Zamus will let you clank with it, though.


This is just theory that I haven't tried yet, but crouching might help. Ganon is the tallest character, but he actually cuts his height with a crouch - which some characters can't say. I've been wondering whether using the crouch to duck 'spaced' aerials could complicate things enough for the opponent to... well, not get an edge, but rough out an edge that a character like Marth - or Zamus here, with her limited nair box, and drop dair - would otherwise have on us. Crouching means they have to aim lower and if they have to aim lower sometimes, you can take advantage of that time and motion.


Oh, and let me check her wake-up data, 'cause I think chokechaining is murder. Powershield a wake-up attack to grab, and throws do nasty things.
Her rolls are certainly conspicuous, but I think Chainchoking is unlikely.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

This is just theory that I haven't tried yet, but crouching might help. Ganon is the tallest character, but he actually cuts his height with a crouch - which some characters can't say. I've been wondering whether using the crouch to duck 'spaced' aerials could complicate things enough for the opponent to... well, not get an edge, but rough out an edge that a character like Marth - or Zamus here, with her limited nair box, and drop dair - would otherwise have on us. Crouching means they have to aim lower and if they have to aim lower sometimes, you can take advantage of that time and motion.

Crouch also gives him 7 frames of lag.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wouldn't crouch unless you're spacing D-tilt or Wizkick. Getting hit while crouching SUCKS.

The way to beat ZSS is to outzone her. She's crap at doing anything between her Forward B and Jab range.

 

[Z1GMA]

She's crap at doing anything between her Forward B and Jab range.

Her iDA can be pretty unforgiving.
Sets up anything on us.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS isn't that nasty.
I believe she's got a CG on us from 0% to like 40%.

It is 0-69%, +regrab. Dash Attack Locking is also really nasty on Ganon because his recovery is awful. If you get locked, it sends you off the stage at a kind of weird downward trajectory setting up for an easy gimp. It isn't guaranteed, but Ganon's recovery is really predictable and ZSS has a pretty good edge game (not the best, but good).

Her disjointers aren't too annoying, except for maybe the gun.

The only attack she has that isn't disjointed is her jab. Which attacks are you talking about?

Anyway, a smart ZSS player knows that being aggressive vs. a solid Ganon is a good way to eat dirt. Thus she'll play very defensively and campy and vs. characters with bad grab range/no mid-to-long-range projectiles, this is very, very easy, and not because of side-b. Properly spaced, the disjoints on her tilts and aerials won't be punishable and are safe on block vs Ganon.

We've discussed this match-up a bit in the ZSS IRC (we have a few people in there who play Ganon for fun/secondary) and have it figured to be somewhere between 70:30 and 75:25 simply due to how limited Ganon's mid-range options are (rather, they are virtually non-existent) and because like most large characters, ZSS has a lot of fun comboing him in the air. And the chain-grab. And the lock. And the gimping.

As general as this sounds, your best bet is to try to focus on bringing the emphasis to the ground game and choosing stages that reflect that. ZSS doesn't do well on Jungle Japes because her side-b and up-b get screwed up by Brawl Ledges™. ZSS does really well on Norfair, on RC, and maybe on Brinstar depending on on how well the opponent does. I hear Ganon really likes Brinstar, though, so maybe you should try to CP that. Basically any stage that makes aerial combat very important will probably be bad for Ganon.

Hope I helped out.

The way to beat ZSS is to outzone her. She's crap at doing anything between her Forward B and Jab range.

It's true that ZSS is at a limited capacity at this zone range, but she does have a few tools such as bair, nair, and rising uair, all of which cover that weakness pretty well.

The real weakness is OOS options, so if you can get ZSS in a bad shielding situation you might be able to break it for a free kill.

 

[Nefarious B]

Ganon cannot punish her bair on shield, or her nair autocanceled for that matter. Those are her approaches on Ganon. Not like she ever has to approach though she can just spam at range or run away.

Our CG is 0-60 btw.

SFP pretty much said everything.

 

[noradseven]

Bull**** while ganon can't perfectly counter it he can get some mixups after a PSed b-air.

PS-> dash attack
....-> down B
....-> over B
....-> dash grab
....-> standing d-tilt (this one will really screw you up)




Like everyone else we can totally **** you up by just standing their and doing nothing(Ganon is my secondary). But thankfully this matchup isn't as terrible as some, because you can wait............................pressure us somewhat safely O_O.


Ganon things:
Ganon dash attack > ZSS over B.
Your **** will kill us at like 30-40% easy.

We have to be terrified juggling you because a well timed down B can shut us down, that being said don't be predictable with it we will dodge fast fall u-tilt reset.

Ganon grab(not the over B grab) >>>> ZSS grab, seriously grab ZSS all day long, most of your damage should be coming from grabs, even more than normal, we don't have many options for stopping your u-air spam, besides evading, which you can bait and grab again.

Also like normal you will beat p. much all of our moves with yours just ours happen to be a lot faster, standard ganon situation.

ZSS things:
jab,d-tilt xn is solid pressure on many characters and its quite good on ganon.
chain grabs lol
Daz-lock lol
easy to spike recovery
We own ganon big in the air.
Items will totally **** you.
Neutral B is actually good in this match.

Overall I would say its around 7:3-8:2, but as far as ganon matchups its totally winable if you are the better player and they don't have the matchup exp you can litterally crush ZSS with grab(not over B), and followups

 

[thexsunrosered]

As general as this sounds, your best bet is to try to focus on bringing the emphasis to the ground game and choosing stages that reflect that. ZSS doesn't do well on Jungle Japes because her side-b and up-b get screwed up by Brawl Ledges™.

all good ganons should love playing on japes. It is by far the most FoG friendly stage, plus water, plus closer vertical blastzones(hitting your opponent horizontally). Also, dark dive ***** the crap out of those platforms, as well as phantasm-esque platform maneuverability via Gerudo/Aerudo. Its one of my favorites.

Items will totally **** you.

... you've obviously never played a Ganon that knows his **** :]

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

all good ganons should love playing on japes. It is by far the most FoG friendly stage, plus water, plus closer vertical blastzones(hitting your opponent horizontally). Also, dark dive ***** the crap out of those platforms, as well as phantasm-esque platform maneuverability via Gerudo/Aerudo. Its one of my favorites.

ZSS players will almost always ban this stage, but if they don't, pick that ****.

... you've obviously never played a Ganon that knows his **** :]

To be fair these are pretty rare. Also norad does know his ****, he plays a pretty decent Ganon.

 

[@HomE]

Ganon grab(not the over B grab) >>>> ZSS grab, seriously grab ZSS all day long, most of your damage should be coming from grabs, even more than normal, we don't have many options for stopping your u-air spam, besides evading, which you can bait and grab again.

We own ganon big in the air.
Items will totally **** you.

you can litterally crush ZSS with grab(not over B), and followups

Umm... are you trying to get us killed? i dont think i would EVER recommend that a Ganon try to grab, besides the rare pivot grab, i grab maybe 0 - 1 times a game. I'd say thats average for most higher lvl Ganons...

Spoiler

Cant Ganon 0 - Death with items

But what do i know I'm just a grumpy old man..


\get off my lawn

 

[adumbrodeus]

Spoiler

Cant Ganon 0 - Death with items

With Clobbering items... occasionally comes up against peach, but nowhere else.

 

[SaltyKracka]

That reminds me of that one hack that made Ganon draw a beamsword with his down taunt. Let's get them to put that **** into Brawl+ or BBrawl. Then the lulz can ensue.

 

[Z1GMA]

It is 0-69%, +regrab.

Are you sure..?
I mean: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7595240

It's more like 0-37% or 0-42% + regrab (FD)

The only attack she has that isn't disjointed is her jab. Which attacks are you talking about?

Oh, I meant her attacks that has a big/long doisjointed hitbox (Separated from her hurtbox), such as side+b, Usmash & Dsmash.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The only attack she has that isn't disjointed is her jab. Which attacks are you talking about?

Understand, most attacks are disjointed to a degree, the question is "by how much"?


ZSS' attacks are not very disjointed, but like almost everyone else, most of her attacks have some disjoint, but very few are very disjointed.

 

[sasook]

Are you sure..?
I mean: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7595240

It's more like 0-37% or 0-42% + regrab (FD)

I don't quite understand the link you gave. It goes to a post asking how big the buffering window is..... /confused

I don't see how it relates to percentages.

Understand, most attacks are disjointed to a degree, the question is "by how much"?

ZSS' attacks are not very disjointed, but like almost everyone else, most of her attacks have some disjoint, but very few are very disjointed.

Well, he meant that her aerials are disjointed enough such that they are safe when spaced right.

Like um.... her uair is capable of going through many, many dairs in the game (almost all of them, even ones like G&W's and TL's), and her bair is safe is on block if "tippered." That's probably what he meant.




From the few times I've played this matchup, I'd say wizard foot is reliable only if the ZSS player likes to uair juggle. That can really mess her up badly. Plus like, 2 attacks from Ganon, hurt. A lot. We have poor OoS options (mainly due to lack of a good shieldgrab) so maybe you can abuse that somehow. I dunno Ganon too well.

Reverse uair gimping may work if we're really low offstage, but I honestly wouldn't expect to gimp a good ZSS. Her recovery is really good, when you put together DI + good momentum cancel + upb boost jump + flipjump that can footstool anything (including edgehogging opponents) if needed....and if she still hasn't made it back, 2 really long tethers.

You guys probably hate the suit pieces, and those can rack up damage fast, so get rid of them. Umm, not much else to say for now. Hope this helped.

 

[thexsunrosered]

You guys probably hate the suit pieces, and those can rack up damage fast, so get rid of them. Umm, not much else to say for now. Hope this helped.

man we really are few and far between huh

 

[sasook]

Does that mean Ganon has a good item game? o_O

 

[Superspright]

Yes. Ganon can do some pretty nasty things to ZSS with her armor pieces. His glidetoss is comparable.