"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[metroid1117]

For once I believe Ike can safely say he's the *slightly* faster character in this match. Jab comes out twice as fast as Ganondorf's fastest move, and almost three times as fast as Ganon's fastest ground move (3 vs 8).

Technically, Ganon's fastest ground move is grab, which comes out in 7 frames. It's still so unfortunate though, how slow Ganon's jab is .

The match-up is definitely in Ike's favor, although I don't know exactly how much; Ike's FAir can pretty much shut out anything Ganon has, but if it whiffs then you guys might be able to side+B or down+B us during landing lag if you time it right. The same may be true for BAir.

In close combat, Ike definitely has the upper hand; his jab comes out in 3 frames, twice as fast as your fastest ground move (grab, which comes out in 7). In addition to dealing damage, can also set up for some nasty things like jab -> grab, jab -> UTilt, or jab -> BAir (all dependent on DI).

Edgeguarding is more even; Ganon can either side+B (which is easily spiked by DTilt or DAir) or up+B, which is probably the safer option. However, Ike can walk-off DAir spike the up+B or edgehog; even if you land on the stage, Ike can edgehop back onto the stage and then proceed to punish from there. Ganon, on the other hand, does not have as many options when edgeguarding Ike; side+B is a laughable recovery that good Ikes will only use when you're not around (and it's really easy to gimp with DAir, jumping out and taking the hit, or with an edgehog), but Aether is a reasonably safe recovery move. The easiest option Ganon has is to edgehog it, but jumping out with reverse UAirs will work as well; just be wary of the Aethercide if the Ike is ahead.

 

[Z1GMA]

"Ganon Vs Ike" is one of my favourite match-ups.
We can enjoy beating the crap out of each other, without beeing interupted by projectiles.

Groundwise:
Ganon is faster if properly spaced.
Within Ike's Jab Range, he's faster.
Outside of it, we're faster.

Aerials:
If it weren't for Ike's disjointed hitboxes ;\

35 : 65 is too bad.
40 : 60 is too good.

38 : 62

 

[TP]

Well every time Ike charges his Fsmash, the opponent trips, so that seems like a pretty big advantage.

As Z1GMA said, this battle is all about spacing. Ganon's Dtilt once again saves the day, like it does in many matchups. Keep Ike at Dtilt range and you've got him. Unfortunately, the Ike won't just stand there while you space yourself properly. This match is in Ike's favor, probably about 60:40.

 

[:034:]

35 : 65 is too bad.
40 : 60 is too good.

38 : 62

I actually find myself somehow agreeing with this. I don't like fighting against Ike though.. He just outclasses you a little bit in every front (except maybe killing power) and the fact that a game exists where that can happen pisses me off.

Also jab and fair. I don't need to explain that, I guess

 

[Nidtendofreak]

(except maybe killing power)

Technically speaking, Ike has more KOing moves then Ganondorf: anything except three of our throws. So we beat you there as well.

I'm still saying 6-4 because I've been Dair'd out of Aether before. And it sucks.

 

[Jekyll]

You can also be Fsmashed and Ftilted out of aether as well.

I'd be pushing for 59:41, but I'm crazy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly I don't see this matchup being worse than 6/4. Ganon's Jab and D-tilt have more range than Ike's Jab from what I can tell and can beat them out if you space well. Ike's Jab mainly punishes you on block or for badly timed dodges. Ike is also horribly unsafe on block with everything he does, and Ganondorf's F-tilt is something Ike wants to avoid getting hit by at mid-high percents. Usually Ganondorf also KOs Ike at lower percents than Ike KOs Ganondorf. A well-placed F-smash can outspace Ike and KO anyone at around 80% (don't believe me? The stutter step outranges Ike's F-smash). Ike usually has to wait until 110% at least to KO with something like U-air.

In general whoever moves first usually gets punished in this matchup, and Ike doesn't have all THAT many exceptions to that rule he can easily get away with. Ike can edgeguard Ganondorf more easily however in most cases, and it's much harder for Ganondorf to get back from the ledge than the other way around.

 

[Z1GMA]

Usually Ganondorf also KOs Ike at lower percents than Ike KOs Ganondorf.

I don't think so.
If the Ike Player is aware of us carrying RCO-lag, he'll make sure to land a good shot at us where ever we may land; especially with his Fsmash's HUGE hitbox which lasts for like 2 hours.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think so.
If the Ike Player is aware of us carrying RCO-lag, he'll make sure to land a good shot at us where ever we may land; especially with his Fsmash's HUGE hitbox which lasts for like 2 hours.

Ike telegraphs his F-smash so badly that even with RCO lag, it's easy to avoid.

More likely, he'll land F-tilt, F-air, or B-air on prediction, which KO at good 50% higher than his F-smash for the most part.

Also, F-smash's hitbox lasts like only 5 frames. Granted many attacks only last like 2 frames, but 5 frames hardly counts as lingering especially since the hitbox is in different positions for those frames.

Ike's F-smash by far is a lot more punishable than Ganondorf's F-smash (Ike is vulnerable for almost an entire second), and Ganondorf's F-smash not only starts up faster, it has tricks that allow it to outrange Ike. And Ike's F-smash KOs like what, 5-10% earlier? Not very impressive.

As my case stands, Ganondorf in general is better at KOing Ike at lower percents than the other way around.

 

[Z1GMA]

Also, F-smash's hitbox lasts like only 5 frames. Granted many attacks only last like 2 frames, but 5 frames hardly counts as lingering especially since the hitbox is in different positions for those frames.

The fact the hitbox only lasts for 5 frames in each area doesn't mean that Ganon's big hurtbox can't be in 2 of them at the same time; or even 3.

And Ike's F-smash KOs like what, 5-10% earlier? Not very impressive.

Ganon's Fsmash kills at 76%, while Ike's kills at 52%. -24%

 

[A2ZOMG]

The fact the hitbox only lasts for 5 frames in each area doesn't mean that Ganon's big hurtbox can't be in 2 of them at the same time; or even 3.

Ganon's Fsmash kills at 76%, while Ike's kills at 52%. -24%

Fair enough, but keep this in mind.

Firstoff, if you're honestly suggesting that Ike is able to land that by predicting your ledge getup (which is probably the only remotely viable way for him to do that...which I still am doubtful of anyway), you're gonna be DIing that properly.

The ways Ganondorf can set up F-smash are much less predictable. You can punish his F-air with F-smash for example. Something that most Ike players are not going to expect since they will usually try to Jab after F-airing in an attempt to punish.

So add like 15% to Ike's F-smash considering DI on reaction, the difference is more like 10%.

 

[Z1GMA]

It's still easier for him to punish our "ledge -> stage", than it is for us to punish his "ledge -> stage".

 

[A2ZOMG]

Usually that's done with an aerial or tilt. Sometimes U-smash.

 

[Z1GMA]

- Yeah, RCO-lag gives the opponent so many options ;\
Ganon gets more predictible when carrying RCO - making it easier to punish his
"Ledge -> Stage-attempts" with aerials before he can even reach safe ground.

 

[Clai]

Ganon's up+B is actually really, really useful in this matchup. Ike can't hit Ganon out of it at any percentage, and if you grab Ike with up+B while he's at the height to recover with Aether, it works as a wonderful gimp. I once killed Ike by meteor-canceling his d-air spike (at a low percentage) and then grabbing him with up+B as I was recovering. It's probably the most reliable way to kill Ike, especially if you send him offstage early with a f-tilt or a forward-throw.

 

[Conspiricy]

We do of course get the pleasure of easy kills with gerudo>ftilt.

I really do love this matchup, It's a literal spacing war. his fair, bair, ftilt and jab seem to be most used against ganon. I often use dtilt, ftilt, uair and bair to space, using gerudo and aerudo to punish. Predicting a roll towards you from gerudo can lead to bouncing combo's and other painful shenanagins.

Simple gimps, utilt, ftilt, uair, dair...and if timed well, even a warlock murder fist to the face.

 

[smashkng]

I think Ike is 45-55. He is slow, has no projectiles, can't punish up b and gerudo is very good against him. This is one of Ganon's best matchups. He has no fast attacks besides grab, jab and back air.

 

[PK-ow!]

Ike telegraphs his F-smash so badly that even with RCO lag, it's easy to avoid.

More likely, he'll land F-tilt, F-air, or B-air on prediction, which KO at good 50% higher than his F-smash for the most part.

No, but, if we have RCO, Ike just has to jab us, then he can, I figure, ftilt while we're landing.
Plus there's Fsmash charging mindgames, I'll bet.

Ganon's up+B is actually really, really useful in this matchup. Ike can't hit Ganon out of it at any percentage, and if you grab Ike with up+B while he's at the height to recover with Aether, it works as a wonderful gimp. I once killed Ike by meteor-canceling his d-air spike (at a low percentage) and then grabbing him with up+B as I was recovering. It's probably the most reliable way to kill Ike, especially if you send him offstage early with a f-tilt or a forward-throw.

This should be big. Choke -> ftilt is guaranteed so with not very much damage at all, we can get him offstage.
But what if he does Aether anyway to try to take us with him?


Don't forget Ike's silver bullet for us: still has Jab.

 

[PhantomX]

If he Aethers while above us we can snap the ledge before he does. Best way to gimp Ike's ever, squeeze under them and steal that ledge

I actually like this matchup... and I can't even seem to land the choke > ftilt.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Luigi's up next.

 

[TP]

Space.

 

[A2ZOMG]

6/4 Luigi and no worse, this matchup Ganondorf actually can have some stuff that is safe on block if he's careful. Luigi's low traction hinders him in this matchup causing him to slide away on block a lot. This would be one of Ganondorf's easier matchups minus the fact that Luigi can really punish Ganondorf significantly when you do mess up. Luigi is very good at comboing fastfallers, and Ganondorf is no exception. And he kills everyone at like 60% with his Up-B so obviously don't whiff a flame choke right next to him.

Oh and don't miss the opportunity to D-air him out of his Tornado. Offstage.

 

[Z1GMA]

I won't be able to vote on this match-up; I haven't faced that many Luigis.
His Utilt-Juggle from 0% to like 50% is gay though.

 

[Big O]

I won't be able to vote on this match-up; I haven't faced that many Luigis.
His Utilt-Juggle from 0% to like 50% is gay though.

I'm sure you can DJ out of it.

 

[Union of Darkness]

I won't be able to vote on this match-up; I haven't faced that many Luigis.
His Utilt-Juggle from 0% to like 50% is gay though.

I don't think he can get you for that long. Most can usually DI away after the 3rd or 4th hit I believe.

 

[PK-ow!]

Don't take dumb risks, unless he's off-balance (sliding, drifting). If he's off-balance, then **** him.

This feels like another of those 'momentum' fights. They say any Luigi knows how to attack, but the good Luigis figured out how to defend. Oh, and ones who know the dair spike box are fnugg'n terrifying.


What do we have to punish Cyclone on prediction?
And for Luigi's shield: What do our attacks do on block? Facepalm safe on block would be hilarious.

 

[Z1GMA]

I'm sure you can DJ out of it.

I don't think he can get you for that long. Most can usually DI away after the 3rd or 4th hit I believe.

So much for my "Luigi Experience".

 

[Pcube]

.-.-.-.-.-

 

[Z1GMA]

Maybe 55/45 considering his ****ty recovery (and vulnerability) after using his tornado.

Luigi's Recovery isn't bad at all.
It's among the more versatile ones in the game.

 

[MBmoney]

60/40 in Luigi's favor. Aside from uptilt juggling, and Luigi's nair ruining most follow-up attempts, its not too hard a match-up. Ganon's dtilt is great for spacing here as well as upairs. Upair gimping is actually fairly easy and effective on Luigi despite his versatile recovery (just make sure you don't get caught in the tornado or you may get thrown out of recovery ranged and lose a stock early). If Luigi gets close, he will combo you, and it will suck. Keep him away and punish his landings with flame choke combos and its a possible win.

 

[PK-ow!]

.... hey...

what do you guys say to using FoG to try to mound a stomp on recovering Luigi?

You can't do it before his second jump, of course, but does Stomp go through Cyclone from on top?
And will Choke grab him out of Green Missile (just, you know, for that option)?


Don't underestimate that "aerial weirdness". Luigi's bair is huge. I dare say it rivals some of our range. You have to make him whiff and punish - so, I guess with pivoting - or it'll pester you all dai.

I think Ganon's game has to be about making people unable to screw around with "empty" actions at close range. Approaching to purposely come short has to not be an option; I think Ganon can and must do that much. He then forces people to either try to really hit you, or to bait, which lets you then (more safely) pick between defense and posturing.


Oh, in preparation for another matchup discussion, PhantomX, can you test something with me? Wifi won't make a difference to the validity (though it complicates disproving the hypothesis ). PM Box.

 

[TP]

Luigi's recovery is the easiest recovery in the game to Utilt. :D

 

[Pcube]

.-.-.-.-.-

 

[PhantomX]

I saw Zakosai backairing Luigi's offstage out of Cyclone.

Also, it helps to actually PM me to get my attention, especially during school periods.

 

[Swoops]

Both u-air and b-air are extremely helpful in the match up. A lot of the luigi match up is knowing your way around fireballs, and outspacing him while watching out for the occasional tornado approach, which can screw you up if you keep trying to space with aerials. A well timed d-air or DA can keep him from using tornado too much though. Also, if he gets inside your zone, either shield and get out of there, or look for the opportunity to OoS n-air or u-air. Tombstone () OoS can work every so often to punish his landing if he's coming down with a misspaced aerial.

Also, going back to b-air, I just realized how much more every Ganon needs to be using this. It's great range, great priority, and great shield pushback along with it's decent speed make it pretty useful for spacing. Screw ACing it, just learn how to pinpoint it. I mean if it hits a certain opponent even if you AC it, go for it; but other than that, throw out FJd aerials into b-airs on the way down, DJ after the FJ then b-air to mix it up a bit. Just keep your opponent guessing all while your aim is good. The shield pushback itself is like equal to f-air's. Plus, the priority is enough to power through so much. I've been testing against a lot of people and it works out well. I know Kalm uses a decent amount of b-air, but I need moar b-air from the rest of you.

 

[PK-ow!]

Both u-air and b-air are extremely helpful in the match up. A lot of the luigi match up is knowing your way around fireballs, and outspacing him while watching out for the occasional tornado approach, which can screw you up if you keep trying to space with aerials. A well timed d-air or DA can keep him from using tornado too much though. Also, if he gets inside your zone, either shield and get out of there, or look for the opportunity to OoS n-air or u-air. Tombstone () OoS can work every so often to punish his landing if he's coming down with a misspaced aerial.

Also, going back to b-air, I just realized how much more every Ganon needs to be using this. It's great range, great priority, and great shield pushback along with it's decent speed make it pretty useful for spacing. Screw ACing it, just learn how to pinpoint it. I mean if it hits a certain opponent even if you AC it, go for it; but other than that, throw out FJd aerials into b-airs on the way down, DJ after the FJ then b-air to mix it up a bit. Just keep your opponent guessing all while your aim is good. The shield pushback itself is like equal to f-air's. Plus, the priority is enough to power through so much. I've been testing against a lot of people and it works out well. I know Kalm uses a decent amount of b-air, but I need moar b-air from the rest of you.

This is a good post.

And yes, I will be using moar bair. I have not mentioned enough that my controller has been broken; I've been seriously handicapped particularly in air control. It's like a new beginning, I can do all this **** I thought was impossible. :D It's exhilarating.

The autocancel on Bair is great because it would beat dodge. And I can only assume, if the opponent rolls in front of you instead, that.... well, that would turn into something good if you predict it. :flame:

*Ganon laugh*

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Samus is up next.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ganon Vs Samus

This Match-up is pretty hard for us.
It doesn't even help that much if we powershield 100/100 Zairs, 'cause we can't really punish it anyways.
Add Pro Spacing to the Samus Player, and it gets even harder to punish it ;\

Over and over again we are forced to approach, but with little reward each time.

Samus beats Ganondorf at Hug Distance, Close range, Sweep Distance, out of Sweep Distance, and obviously, at long range.

15 : 85

 

[A2ZOMG]

7/3 Samus.

The only thing going for you is just cause you live stupidly long with good DI and can do stuff that KOs her earlier...if you can get in range.

Learning to powershield is an absolute must in this matchup. There really isn't any other way to get around her camp game. After you get in a hit, you absolutely must juggle her as long as possible and make sure her ledge getup doesn't go by unpunished.

Oh right and try not to get gimped.

This matchup is even worse in BBrawl lol. =/

 

[TP]

This matchup is even worse in BBrawl lol. =/

A2, you are the Ray Kalm of BBrawl.