"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[thexsunrosered]

Going back to pit, just CP pirate ship and your good to go =]

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Peach...65/35.

This matchup is basically the same as the ROB matchup. Her camping isn't really the number one threat. It's her plethora of safe pokes. You can outprioritze her and KO her early. Yeah.

F-air is a valuable asset, and an annoying liability in this matchup. F-air is able to outspace EVERYTHING Peach does, and will make her think twice about her approach. However, you'll get punished pretty hard for whiffing it. The better you can space F-air (not to mention U-air, B-air, and U-smash), the better you will do in this matchup.

Predicting when she jumps and punishing is very key in this matchup. Ganondorf is a little bit slow to do this effectively, but it's important to know that Peach rarely ever does aerials on the first frame possible.

Peach could escape with more than 9/10th of her moves which she lands on Ganon's shield. That includes all her aerials, her tilts, and even her USmash (which is considered her most threatening smash). Now, if the Peach:Falcon match-up is 35:65, and Falcon's actually able to punish those 9/10th of her moves out of shield, then this match-up's alot worse for Ganon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The only moves that are really difficult for Ganon to punish are F-air, Jab, and D-air (and to a lesser extent, Forward B, which you don't punish out of shield). I'm pretty certain you can D-tilt out of shield against her F-tilt and U-smash.

N-air is also useful if she tries to float above Ganon's head. Well-timed DAs are able to punish her for spacing lower.

I've actually played this matchup a bit, and while it's horrible, it's nowhere nearly as horrible as vs Pit, which is a 7/3 matchup.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The only moves that are really difficult for Ganon to punish are F-air, Jab, and D-air (and to a lesser extent, Forward B, which you don't punish out of shield). I'm pretty certain you can D-tilt out of shield against her F-tilt and U-smash.

N-air is also useful if she tries to float above Ganon's head. Well-timed DAs are able to punish her for spacing lower.

I've actually played this matchup a bit, and while it's horrible, it's nowhere nearly as horrible as vs Pit, which is a 7/3 matchup.

Peach's frame Data, do some research. Mostly all of Peach's move have less than 15 frames of lag (Ganon's jab OoS) and a ton of shield pushback.

NAir while she's above Ganon isn't really reliable at all. While the aerial itself is fast, from the ground it becomes 7 frames slower.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly I don't know what you're getting at...the shield advantage on most of those attacks is around the 20ish range, and the advantages for aerials (minus F-air) are much higher than that when you factor Peach is rarely landing aerials at the last frame possible.

Seriously...what attacks are you referring to?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Honestly I don't know what you're getting at...the shield advantage on most of those attacks is around the 20ish range, and the advantages for aerials (minus F-air) are much higher than that when you factor Peach is rarely landing aerials at the last frame possible.

Seriously...what attacks are you referring to?

I'm basically saying, with solid spacing, it's almost impossible for Ganon to punish Peach OoS.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Peach isn't Sheik who ducks under Ganon's grab and Jab by spamming random attacks.

What D-tilt doesn't reach, a DA out of shield almost certainly can reach, OR if she's THAT far away, she's not really putting pressure on Ganondorf.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Peach isn't Sheik who ducks under Ganon's grab and Jab by spamming random attacks.

What D-tilt doesn't reach, a DA out of shield almost certainly can reach, OR if she's THAT far away, she's not really putting pressure on Ganondorf.

Why does everyone think that DTilt is so good? Yes, DTilt is a great Ganon move with good range. But the fact that it has 12-13 start-up lag puts all that great range away. Ganon's DTilt isn't ROB, Bowser, or Snake's FTilts.

 

[:034:]

Spacing, man, spacing

90% of this game is in Ganondorf's dtilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-tilt is frame 10, the same as Marth's F-smash. Frame 10 (17 accounting for shield drop) is very good for out of shield purposes. Most attacks in this game hover around 20ish frames of ending lag, and the ones that are less laggy usually have more startup.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

D-tilt is frame 10, the same as Marth's F-smash. Frame 10 (17 accounting for shield drop) is very good for out of shield purposes.

That was my fault, DTilt comes out on frame 11 atleast.

Most attacks in this game hover around 20ish frames of ending lag, and the ones that are less laggy usually have more startup.

I'd have to disagree with this. Only Ganon's moveset is that laggy.

 

[thexsunrosered]

Normally we're supposed to discuss how to win matchups, not re-enforce how bad Ganon is -.-

 

[A2ZOMG]

That was my fault, DTilt comes out on frame 11 atleast.

I'd have to disagree with this. Only Ganon's moveset is that laggy.

Ray Kalm...you obviously don't read enough frame data. Read our frame data thread. Ganondorf's F-tilt and D-tilt both come out frame 10...If you're going to tell me that you sandbag online...I don't get your joke. And I am pretty sure you're a very serious person.

The reason why I like Mario so much is because his reverse F-smash outranges almost everything in this game. Even though it appears slow at frame 15, I can know that I can punish almost any attack in this game with my longer ranged F-smash since most attacks have 20ish frames of ending lag, keeping me at a 5 frame advantage at least when I'm looking to land F-smash.

The only characters who consistently have less than 20 frames of ending lag on random attacks are basically MK and G&W if I recall.

20 frames of ending lag isn't THAT laggy by the way. Think of Marth's SH double F-air. There's actually 29 frames between F-airs. If you're good, of course, it's possible to punish that.

Random stuff that has less than 20 frames of ending lag...Peach's F-air, Mario's D-air, G&W's Smashes, MK's U-air and F-smash, Ganondorf's U-smash....those if I recall fit around the 10 frame area. There's others, but seriously, most attacks in this game hover around the 20ish ballpark.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ray Kalm...you obviously don't read enough frame data. Read our frame data thread. Ganondorf's F-tilt and D-tilt both come out frame 10...If you're going to tell me that you sandbag online...I don't get your joke. And I am pretty sure you're a very serious person.

The reason why I like Mario so much is because his reverse F-smash outranges almost everything in this game. Even though it appears slow at frame 15, I can know that I can punish almost any attack in this game with my longer ranged F-smash since most attacks have 20ish frames of ending lag, keeping me at a 5 frame advantage at least when I'm looking to land F-smash.

The only characters who consistently have less than 20 frames of ending lag on random attacks are basically MK and G&W if I recall.

20 frames of ending lag isn't THAT laggy by the way. Think of Marth's SH double F-air. There's actually 29 frames between F-airs. If you're good, of course, it's possible to punish that.

Random stuff that has less than 20 frames of ending lag...Peach's F-air, Mario's D-air, G&W's Smashes, MK's U-air and F-smash, Ganondorf's U-smash....those if I recall fit around the 10 frame area. There's others, but seriously, most attacks in this game hover around the 20ish ballpark.

Why isn't Ganon able to punish moves with "normal lag" then? Either way, my point was that Ganon has trouble punishing OoS, and alot more in this match-up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf's problem is he has trouble maintaining an advantageous position partly due to low mobility, and especially since his fastest out of shield option (grab) has extremely poor range. Positioning and predicting that is a big part of how safety works.

And my point is basically there is a learning curve to punishing out of shield effectively in certain matchups. It still can be done.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganondorf's problem is he has trouble maintaining an advantageous position partly due to low mobility, and especially since his fastest out of shield option (grab) has extremely poor range. Positioning and predicting that is a big part of how safety works.

And my point is basically there is a learning curve to punishing out of shield effectively in certain matchups. It still can be done.

That wasn't the point I was making. Both Jab and grab are real bad OoS, whether you're in a advantageous position or not.

 

[Z1GMA]

I use to fight a good Peach (And a campy one, for that matter).
Her AC'd aerials -> jabs/grab are hard to counter.
She can do pretty much anything she likes after landing a well timed aerial on us, or on our shield.
The best way to deal with it, is to predict it and iDA or Uair before her hitbox comes out.
Then again, this makes you very predictable, and easily punished yourself.

Dtilt works good as long as she isn't floating too high.
If she does, a well timed iDA or DC'd Uair should do the trick.

I don't even feel like talking about those **** vegetables.
They're harder to deal with than Pit's Arrows, imo.

30 : 70

 

[Ganonsburg]

I use to fight a good Peach (And a campy one, for that matter).
Her AC'd aerials -> jabs/grab are hard to counter.
She can do pretty much anything she likes after landing a well timed aerial on us, or on our shield.
The best way to deal with it, is to predict it and iDA or Uair before her hitbox comes out.
Then again, this makes you very predictable, and easily punished yourself.

Dtilt works good as long as she isn't floating too high.
If she does, a well timed iDA or DC'd Uair should do the trick.

I don't even feel like talking about those **** vegetables.
They're harder to deal with than Pit's Arrows, imo.

30 : 70

I heard Peach wants their enemies to catch the turnips because of their general crappiness. Whether or not this is true, can't you just catch it and use it in a banana-choking type way?

 

[deepseadiva]

I get to play Moblin here in Colorado somewhat often and have faced him once or twice in tournament as well and my impression is that this match-up is heavily slanted in Peach's favor. The only time a Ganon is a threat is when he's performing a ranged aerial.

Up close: his shield is pokeable, grabbable, and utterly unsafe. Peach highly enjoys when a large character is shielding - particularly when they are comboable and have no answer to a properly placed float -> fair -> jab/grab. I don't believe anything Ganon has is nearly fast enough and or high enough. If Peach has touched you shield, you have allowed her to come too close.

The best answer to this, and the only major problem I've had with Ganon is his ranged aerials. You absolutely need to keep this ***** out with uair or fair or whatever. If she gets in, you're going to get comboed or CG'd if it's early in the stock until you manage to land a GTFO move of some sort.

Ganon loses if she's in and unfortunately, Ganon loses if she's out. Turnips.

Peach can camp Ganondorf very very easily and it completly ruins the match-up. Run away, spam turnips, "Oh, he's in?", random GTFO aerial, run away, spam turnips, repeat. To my knowledge, there's little Ganondorf receives by catching them (though you might wanna look into that), in fact, he ends up losing his dangerous aerials in exchange for a one-time-use turnip throw.

Not to say that they're useless - but being predictable with them can lead to an easy counter with Toad, or simply more spamming. I'd highly recommend instant throwing them, unless she's attempting to approach with them - otherwise she'll just recatch it with an aerial.

Ideally, you need Peach at near mid-range. Far enough you can smack her with the tip of your aerials so you out-range her, but close enough that pulling turnips is punishable. You absolutely need to punish everything. You hit hard and Peach is light. Grab her out of every mis-spaced fair on your shield, choke those missed auto-cancels, clip her feet whenever she's floating too low.

Ganondorf is relying too heavily on errors and an easily escapable zone for this to be anywhere near a 40:60 match-up - I'd say 30:70 Peach's favor.

Other random stuff:
- You can spike her out of her up-b the parasol.

- Peach's nair can knock Ganondorf out of his up-b past 36%.

- I'd recommend Battlefield as the starter stage in a match with Final Destination as being your first stage strike. Ban Jungle Japes.

- I'd actually suggest trying out Rainbow Cruise as a CP. Peach would die earlier, she can't camp as she normally could, and Peach does crappily at being defensive in the air - something the stage heavily punishes.

- Peach can dthrow Ganondorf from 0 - 37%.

 

[Meru.]

I heard Peach wants their enemies to catch the turnips because of their general crappiness. Whether or not this is true, can't you just catch it and use it in a banana-choking type way?

Nah, turnips are amazing. At least, in the hands of Peach, since she has a good glide toss and she can still perform aerials because of floating. Really, I wouldn't underestimate these things, a Peach who is good with turnips is a real *****. Especially against poor Ganondorf.

Also, has someone mentioned Peachy combos yet? Watch out for them, we rack up damage very easily on Ganondorf.

 

[stRIP]

Nah, turnips are amazing. At least, in the hands of Peach, since she has a good glide toss and she can still perform aerials because of floating. Really, I wouldn't underestimate these things, a Peach who is good with turnips is a real *****. Especially against poor Ganondorf.

Also, has someone mentioned Peachy combos yet? Watch out for them, we rack up damage very easily on Ganondorf.

We also have a good Glide Toss and a good turnip game.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

We also have a good Glide Toss and a good turnip game.

I wouldn't consider it that good, we might be able to do something out of gerudo, but it shouldn't be match-up changing.

 

[Z1GMA]

'Gerudo -> Turnip' is pretty worthless. 'Gerudo -> Dtilt' is way better.
Though, if you manage to catch a rotten Turnip, It'd be a sweet KO-Combo.

btw, If we Ganons can capture her Beam Sword when she gets one, our Gerudo Game can get really nasty.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

'Gerudo -> Turnip' is pretty worthless. 'Gerudo -> Dtilt' is way better.
Though, if you manage to catch a rotten Turnip, It'd be a sweet KO-Combo.

btw, If we Ganons can capture her Beam Sword when she gets one, our Gerudo Game can get really nasty.

Gerudo beam sword lawk. <_< Turns the whole match-up around.

 

[Moblin]

Ganondorf is relying too heavily on errors and an easily escapable zone for this to be anywhere near a 40:60 match-up - I'd say 30:70 Peach's favor.

Thanks Meno. You summed up the matchup very nicely, and I pretty much agree 100%. In my experience you have to trick Peach every time you want to get a hit in that's not a punish.

What exactly are our advantages with the beam sword? IIRC, I tried using a beam sword against peach but she drops too low to get hit with a BeamSword Jab. Thoughts?

 

[TP]

Thanks Meno. You summed up the matchup very nicely, and I pretty much agree 100%. In my experience you have to trick Peach every time you want to get a hit in that's not a punish.

What exactly are our advantages with the beam sword? IIRC, I tried using a beam sword against peach but she drops too low to get hit with a BeamSword Jab. Thoughts?

Ganon's great with a Beam Sword because when you hold one and then you do the taunt where you draw Ganon's sword too your opponent's head explodes.

 

[stRIP]

Ganon's great with a Beam Sword because when you hold one and then you do the taunt where you draw Ganon's sword too your opponent's head explodes.

Ganon is able to infinite big chars with the laser sword after the sideB

 

[TP]

I knew that, but that answer is boring.

 

[Praxis]

A2ZOMG, have you ever played a Peach willing to play suuuuuper safe? Most will play aggressive in friendlies. She's capable of being really really gay as she has one of the safest on-shield movesets in the game AND a projectile that she can use move away via pivot reverse glide tossing and comes out in three frames OOS.

Also, our nair beats your side-B.

You have no method to punish our dair on shield, or a spaced bair or fair on shield. We can combo you to 50% off a dair, have a 40% CG on you, and most importantly, we edgeguard you ridiculously. If we throw a turnip at you to waste your jump, float against the ledge and edgehog as you go past- or better yet, edgehog early, drop and nair your recovery- you die. I've developed a ton of edgeguards against characters with similar recoveries because I play Deva's Link a lot.

You can't recover. You can't punish us if we play safe. We have frame advantage in almost any situation, including on shield (and we have a 2 frame jab). Your only advantage is that we'll die earlier if we make a series of mistakes. This isn't a "GANON SUCKS OMG" post, but I truly believe that it's a really bad matchup.

I can't see this as being anything better than 70:30 Peach at absolute best for Ganon. Maybe worse. :/

 

[Praxis]

I heard Peach wants their enemies to catch the turnips because of their general crappiness. Whether or not this is true, can't you just catch it and use it in a banana-choking type way?

Characters that aren't Peach and Diddy can't utilize the turnips as well as she can, so yes- if you catch the turnip, you just removed your ability to perform any non-special attack, so we're gonna punish you for it.

 

[stRIP]

Also, our nair beats your side-B.

Like any other move in the game that has a Hitbox.


i would say 70:30 for this matchup

 

[TP]

Like any other move in the game that has a Hitbox.


i would say 70:30 for this matchup

I was going to make almost an identical post, word for word.

70:30

 

[Praxis]

lol, well the reason I bring it up is that Nair is 3 frames, and last time this matchup is discussed, some silly person was convinced that Ganondorf can jump up and side-B as Peach's dair ends. If Peach is ever about to get Gerudo'd she can just Nair it first. The idea didn't work anyway because Peach's dair'll hit Ganondorf anyway unless he's spaced higher than her.

Also, Meno said that nair beats Ganondorf's up-B? I'll test how reliable that is.

I have this idea in my head of Peach floating against the ledge as Ganondorf's trying to recover and just nairing him repeatedly as he tries to up-B to the ledge. LOL. Probably not worth the risk as she can just release the float to edgehog.

 

[stRIP]

I havent tested or red/heard about the priority of Ganons UpB, but i think its really high. Like in Melee. Just get the hurtbox with the grab box and the UpB goes through anything, so attacks which dont have disjointed hitboxes will lose vs Ganons UpB. but what happens AFTER the UpB...amagawd dont want to talk about it

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2ZOMG, have you ever played a Peach willing to play suuuuuper safe? Most will play aggressive in friendlies. She's capable of being really really gay as she has one of the safest on-shield movesets in the game AND a projectile that she can use move away via pivot reverse glide tossing and comes out in three frames OOS.

As a matter of a fact, I have. BO X7. I'm pretty sure you know how good he is.

I learned by playing him that shielding against Peach's air game doesn't work most of the time. Also as super safe Peach is on shield, I still find she still has openings on predicted spacing since she doesn't have as much range as other characters. Of course, retreating glide toss is completely safe, but only can be used so many times if it doesn't hit since you lose ground when you use it.

65/35 is pretty horrible as it is, but I don't find Peach THAT untouchable. And unlike someone like Snake she doesn't live past 150% every stock.

 

[Moblin]

Also, Meno said that nair beats Ganondorf's up-B? I'll test how reliable that is.

I have this idea in my head of Peach floating against the ledge as Ganondorf's trying to recover and just nairing him repeatedly as he tries to up-B to the ledge. LOL. Probably not worth the risk as she can just release the float to edgehog.

no, he meant that after we grab you with it, you can hit us with a nair directly after it ends.



And I have been in that situation with many many Metaknights.

Sometimes they're jerks and just Dair you over and over again instead of edge hogging and ending the misery and you keep up Bing thinking they might mess up but they don't and you just keep getting Daired and tears start to well up and you revoke your religion and then you finally sweetspot the edge only to learn that he let you because he knew you'd be so surprised that you grabbed it that he could nair spike you against the stage before you could gather your thoughts enough to roll back on and then you go on a murderous crime spree IRL.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

30:70 it is. We're moving on to Ike, someone inform the Ike boards.

 

[Z1GMA]

What exactly are our advantages with the beam sword? IIRC, I tried using a beam sword against peach but she drops too low to get hit with a BeamSword Jab. Thoughts?

Oh... That's depressing.
Too bad he don't swing the Beam Sword Verticaly ;\

At least, it works uphills. But that sux anyway.

 

[Kirk]

I play DLA's ganon a lot. It's fun as ****.

Spiking battles are always entertaining.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yay spiking and suicide moves!

For once I believe Ike can safely say he's the *slightly* faster character in this match. Jab comes out twice as fast as Ganondorf's fastest move, and almost three times as fast as Ganon's fastest ground move (3 vs 8). Fair when spaced properly should be completely safe against Ganondorf, unless Wizfoot can get there before we can shield....but I don't think it can.

Ganondorf has his Side B stuff against Ike, Ike has his Combat Walking and grab release to walk-off fair on Ganondorf. Ike needs to make sure to jab the moment he sees the start up of Ganondorf's side B, Ganon needs to make sure he doesn't get jabbed on the edge otherwise he'll get grabbed and then walk-off'd.

Both can screw with each other's recovery easily enough. Ike has the advantage in range.

6-4 Ike.