"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[adumbrodeus]

Can we please have a proper match-up discussion before randomly throwing out numbers?

And invite lucas boards over to the discuss. Lucas is one of the more technical characters, and I feel like we didn't cover him in depth enough.

 

[Z1GMA]

A good Lucas should give you h*ll when you're trying to recover.

He has a couple nice edgeguard options, as well as a good edgehog game - with or without the help of his snake.

And his disjointed, long lasting, Long Vertical Hitbox-Spike ***** us.

At the top of the metagame, Lucas is almost impossible to edgeguard.

 

[Noobicidal]

Can we please have a proper match-up discussion before randomly throwing out numbers?

And invite lucas boards over to the discuss. Lucas is one of the more technical characters, and I feel like we didn't cover him in depth enough.

I did a little while ago. No response as of yet.

 

[lil cj]

Most of the Lucas mains are in the OBR
and havnt been checking the boards lately lol
I'll be glad to input my opinion on this matchup.

Lucas' main thing is spacing, we space primarily with Pk fire
this move alone will cause trouble for Ganon.

Lucas is has a good ground game. He has a very fast jab(comes out frame 2) and ftilt

Lucas has a few mini combos too like: jab cancels, dair combos* and nair combos
Since Ganon is pretty big and slow Lucas can combo him easily.

*Watch out for dair+dtilt(lock)+fsmash at about 70-80%
If you dont tech its a guaranteed KO if forward smash is fresh

Also, Ganon is a big target so prepare for lots of nairs(works best on heavies)

As mentioned earlier a good Lucas will edgeguard and take advantage of Ganon's
recovery. We will use PK thunder, dair, bair(for a spike), and fair.
It will be easy to bair spike Ganon because of his large size so watch out for bair.

Now for Lucas' weaknesses. Lucas has a poor grab game. The only time Lucas will grab is if its sheild grab
or a pivote grab which increases the speed of his grab.

Also, Lucas(and Ness) has a problem with grab release(similar to Wario). The reason for this is because he has more frames on his grab release animation than any other character so he will be vulnerable for an attack in that time of weakness. Ganon might have time to do a free jab,tilt(except up tilt), and probably even a forward smash.

Lastly, like I mentioned before Lucas is all about spacing so if you mess up his spacing he will be vulnerable at times.


Well thats all you need to know about Lucas

I wont say any numbers yet til I hear more
on Ganon's side

 

[GotenOnNimbus]

I play both quite often, so I'll try my hand at breaking this down.

Lucas's favorite game to play is keep away, and he's got plenty of tools to do it with. A good Lucas spaces with PK Fire while racking up quick damage with things like NAir, DAir, FTilt, and PK Thunder. Retreating PK Fire is hard to punish, and puts Lucas a good distance from his opponent. He kills largely with Fsmash and Dsmash if their timing's good, and very rarely with USmash unless they're positive it will hit. He's got tons of recovery options, be it Ropesnake, Magnet Pulling, and Zap Jumping, or as a very last resort, PK Thunder. His jump is huge, so a good amount of time he doesn't even need to use any of those options. PK Thunder, Dsmash, and Dair can all be used to edgeguard, have multiple hitboxes, and can be tough to avoid. Overall, he's got a lot going for him, and can dish out some damage.

But...

His weakness is range, and overall trick predictability. The main things to keep in mind when fighting a Lucas player is Nair can land laglessly into jabs(IE keep shielding when he lands), and learn how Lucas gets up for Gerudo chains. Main modes that seem to rack up damage on him are UAir and Gerudo followups. Ftilt is a pain to deal with, but can sometimes be predicted if Lucas is walking, not running up to you. Offstage is where he can start getting predictable. Yeah, he's got some cool tricks at his disposal, but Magnet Pulling and Zap Jumping are linear and can be telegraphed. Stomp him. If he recovers high, it actually might not be a bad idea to FoG up and attack him with UAir, or you can wait for him to come down and attempt to juggle him with Uair. Otherwise, he's clear for a stomping at stage level. Below the stage, Ganon should be able to take him out around and below the edge, unless it's PK Thunder. If you're the one recovering, he can pretty much do the same to you. Be as erratic as you can and use PK Thunder as an advantage to refresh Dark Dive/Gerudo. Otherwise, be careful of the BAir spike. It's deceiving where it hits to spike you, and spikes fairly well. If you're spiked above the stage, you should be able to Dark Dive to the edge.

Overall, I see the two of them as opposite ends of the spectrum. Ganon deals a lot with one blow, while Lucas tends to get in multiple hits to do the same amount. Both can edgeguard each other really well, the differences being Lucas has a spammable projectile, and Ganon being heavier.

Due to PK Fire, I give it in Lucas' favor, 60-40, or possibly 55-45.

 

[Chuee]

His weakness is range, and overall trick predictability

No, Lucas' ftilt has really good range and is really fast.

Offstage is where he can start getting predictable. Yeah, he's got some cool tricks at his disposal, but Magnet Pulling and Zap Jumping are linear and can be telegraphed. Stomp him. If he recovers high, it actually might not be a bad idea to FoG up and attack him with UAir, or you can wait for him to come down and attempt to juggle him with Uair. Otherwise, he's clear for a stomping at stage level. Below the stage, Ganon should be able to take him out around and below the edge, unless it's PK Thunder. If you're the one recovering, he can pretty much do the same to you. Be as erratic as you can and use PK Thunder as an advantage to refresh Dark Dive/Gerudo. Otherwise, be careful of the BAir spike. It's deceiving where it hits to spike you, and spikes fairly well. If you're spiked above the stage, you should be able to Dark Dive to the edge.

Lucas can DJ to tether which isn't very punishable.
Zap Jump can be punished but we don't use that very often.
Magnet Pull can't be punished because you reverse magnet pull if you think you're in danger of being hit.
Lucas won't be juggled unless Ganon's Uair can outprioritize our Dair and Nair, but even if it does we can still airdodge.

30-70 Lucas
We can camp Ganon really well with PKF since I heard Ganon has a lot of trouble with Projectiles. PKF can be Bsticked and spaced so it's hard to punish
Our attack speed beats out Ganon's
If Ganon gets offstage it's relatively easy to gimp him with our PKT

Ganon can **** us with side-B. He can destroy us if we make a mistake with his really high powered attacks. He can GR dtilt us but his grab range is fail so he won't get hardly any grabs if we space correctly.

 

[TP]

He can GR dtilt us but his grab range is fail so he won't get hardly any grabs if we space correctly.

Grabbing out of a choke is something I do several times a match. Thanks to pivot grabbing, I will grab you after a choke no matter what unless you choose to roll away. The other 3 options lead to a grab (and if you always choose the same option you're getting choked again). GR Dash Attack is probably guaranteed (it should be based on frames) and it will kill Lucas at around 100 fresh.

Still, Ganon loses this matchup pretty bad.

 

[Big O]

Don't they fall on the ground after a flame choke? You can't grab someone lying on the floor so how would a pivot grab after a flame choke work?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Don't they fall on the ground after a flame choke? You can't grab someone lying on the floor so how would a pivot grab after a flame choke work?

He probably means 'teching'.

 

[TP]

No, I mean after they do whatever they do. Against Lucas (and several other chars) I walk away after a choke, outside his getup attack range. If he does it or a regular getup I dash grab him, if he rolls to me I reverse pivot grab him. Works almost every time I do it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

No, I mean after they do whatever they do. Against Lucas (and several other chars) I walk away after a choke, outside his getup attack range. If he does it or a regular getup I dash grab him, if he rolls to me I reverse pivot grab him. Works almost every time I do it.

Yes, that's what you call teching.

 

[thexsunrosered]

I feel like this matchup is VERY dependent on whether on not it's wifi or in real life. The thing about spacing with lucas is that unless he's bsticking, you're always pretty much gonna know when a PK fire is gonna come, or at least have the chance to, and act accordingly, meaning powershielding, with is crucial to Ganon.

The simple fact is that powershielding is undoubtedly more difficult and less consistent online and without that confidence in blocking the PK Fire, I think this matchup falls more in Lucas' favor in overall play, since a majority of Brawl is on wifi. However, if playing in person, I think that if Ganon learns to shield correctly, both PSing and through multi-hit attacks, the matchup becomes much closer to even, but only if the Ganon is defensive and smart with his movements. This means using laggy moves sparringly (Fsmash, Fair, not AC'd Dair or Uair, lolDsmash) as they can be punished VERY easily with Lucas' monster Fsmash, Ftilt, and at higher percents Dair->Dtilt->****.

65-35 Lucas online
55-45 Lucas offline

 

[Noobicidal]

Yes, that's what you call teching.

That's what you call "tech chasing", but this isn't a battle of semantics.

Duelist Pro? That's an example of teching.

 

[GotenOnNimbus]

No, Lucas' ftilt has really good range and is really fast.

Dtilt and I'm pretty sure stutter stepped Fsmash beat ftilt. Ganon in Ftilt range means Lucas is in range of pretty much anything Ganon has to offer.

Lucas can DJ to tether which isn't very punishable.
Zap Jump can be punished but we don't use that very often.
Magnet Pull can't be punished because you reverse magnet pull if you think you're in danger of being hit.
Lucas won't be juggled unless Ganon's Uair can outprioritize our Dair and Nair, but even if it does we can still airdodge.

Ganon's Uair has great range. All he has to be is slightly to the left or right of Lucas' Dair to hit him. Ganon's Dair also has amazing range, and on several occasions I've traded hits with Lucas' Nair, which doesn't end well for Lucas.

30-70 Lucas
We can camp Ganon really well with PKF since I heard Ganon has a lot of trouble with Projectiles. PKF can be Bsticked and spaced so it's hard to punish
Our attack speed beats out Ganon's
If Ganon gets offstage it's relatively easy to gimp him with our PKT

Get in mid range of PKF, and it's punishable. Ganons are good at powershielding because of all the projectiles in the game. At the end of PK Fire, sure, Ganon has to get by that. But anything closer, and it's raepcountry. It sounds like you've never seen/heard of a decent Ganon...I also think you're doubting Ganon's offstage potential, really. Yes, Ganon is slow, has crappy recovery, and no projectile/weapon, but if you make any mistakes, he'll make you hurt for it, especially on the ledge.

Ganon can **** us with side-B. He can destroy us if we make a mistake with his really high powered attacks. He can GR dtilt us but his grab range is fail so he won't get hardly any grabs if we space correctly.

It's a tiny bit better with pivot grab, but in general, unless you're running towards him in a meadow attempting to hug him, Ganon's not going to rely on his normal grab for much. Gerudo's where it's at.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes, that's what you call teching.

Tech-chasing, right?

I feel like this matchup is VERY dependent on whether on not it's wifi or in real life. The thing about spacing with lucas is that unless he's bsticking, you're always pretty much gonna know when a PK fire is gonna come, or at least have the chance to, and act accordingly, meaning powershielding, with is crucial to Ganon.

The simple fact is that powershielding is undoubtedly more difficult and less consistent online and without that confidence in blocking the PK Fire, I think this matchup falls more in Lucas' favor in overall play, since a majority of Brawl is on wifi. However, if playing in person, I think that if Ganon learns to shield correctly, both PSing and through multi-hit attacks, the matchup becomes much closer to even, but only if the Ganon is defensive and smart with his movements. This means using laggy moves sparringly (Fsmash, Fair, not AC'd Dair or Uair, lolDsmash) as they can be punished VERY easily with Lucas' monster Fsmash, Ftilt, and at higher percents Dair->Dtilt->****.

65-35 Lucas online
55-45 Lucas offline

I'm sorry, but no.

This is for competitive play, which is primarily offline. You shouldn't even be considering on-line ratios (especially since they vary widely depending on lag and latency at the time).

Assume he's b-sticking (most lucas players are now, at least that's the impression I get).

AC dair is punishable.

 

[lil cj]

Actually you dont have to b-stick to make Lucas wave bounce PK fire lol
You can do it manually, you just have to RAR your pk fire...Im not sure if alot of Lucas' know this is not
B-sticking is useless...
I think this matchup is 65-35 in Lucas' favor
Thats fair right

 

[A2ZOMG]

Didn't I say a while ago that PK Fire is the least of your worries? <_<

Seriously, that **** is easy to powershield. He even yells "PK FIYAH" before using it. And he can't ever spam it in midrange since that will get powershield punished. The only time he can use it is if Ganondorf whiffs something or gets really predictable with Flame Choke or Wizkick.

Lucas's main assets in this matchup are N-air, F-smash, D-smash, and to a lesser extent grab. Ganondorf often needs to use rolls to get around to where he needs to go, and both N-air and D-smash can punish that pretty well. Lucas's F-smash is not terribly hard to land in this matchup either due to its decent range/speed and is good for KOs. Lucas's grab is also moderately annoying since it can punish several of Ganon's attacks.

Otherwise Ganondorf for the most part can just try to F-tilt/D-tilt/Dash attack/U-air through whatever Lucas tries to do whenever he gets in range. It's a pretty straightforward matchup for the most part.

 

[ul7r05]

60-40 Lucas' favor. The reason for this, is of course projectiles. Ganondorf has a huge issue with projectiles, and a proper and correct approach is pretty difficult (even on the defensive side). Spacing is easier for Lucas, unless your the better player defensively and bait Lucas to your advantage. As for Ganon, make sure to Flame Choke when possible creating a possible momentum shift in the fight. Aerial game is tough due to Lucas' high priorities. Just make sure your above Lucas in the air for maximum advantage. So, bottom line, make sure your not aggressive towards an expert level Lucas player. Forcing air dodges and follow-ups are a big rule of thumb for ANY projectile based opponent. Patience and defense are another key ingredient to winning that fight, also every time you get KO'ed (and this goes with every character) WAIT until the pod drops you. Don't go straight rushing in right after you die, drain the clock as much as possible, (that is unless timed stock isn't on) because as a Ganon player you have to take advantage of every rule that's there, including time. I'm sure this was long and boring, but this is my opinion after all.

 

[TP]

also every time you get KO'ed (and this goes with every character) WAIT until the pod drops you. Don't go straight rushing in right after you die, drain the clock as much as possible, (that is unless timed stock isn't on) because as a Ganon player you have to take advantage of every rule that's there, including time.

Wrong. While running the clock is a way to victory, Ganon is not good enough at it for it to be dependable. Moreover, the pod only holds you for a few seconds. If you see an opportunity to surprise your opponent, that opportunity has much more value than a few more seconds off the clock.

 

[ul7r05]

Yeah, that is true. I do that mainly in doubles though. I guess that goes the same for impossible recoveries, if you can't and know you won't make it, killing your self to re-spawn faster can prove a possible shift in the fight especially if they are by the edge for pressure game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

60-40 Lucas' favor. The reason for this, is of course projectiles. Ganondorf has a huge issue with projectiles, and a proper and correct approach is pretty difficult (even on the defensive side). Spacing is easier for Lucas, unless your the better player defensively and bait Lucas to your advantage. As for Ganon, make sure to Flame Choke when possible creating a possible momentum shift in the fight. Aerial game is tough due to Lucas' high priorities. Just make sure your above Lucas in the air for maximum advantage. So, bottom line, make sure your not aggressive towards an expert level Lucas player. Forcing air dodges and follow-ups are a big rule of thumb for ANY projectile based opponent. Patience and defense are another key ingredient to winning that fight, also every time you get KO'ed (and this goes with every character) WAIT until the pod drops you. Don't go straight rushing in right after you die, drain the clock as much as possible, (that is unless timed stock isn't on) because as a Ganon player you have to take advantage of every rule that's there, including time. I'm sure this was long and boring, but this is my opinion after all.

...

The only thing Lucas's projectiles do is make it really annoying when you're offstage. I'm serious...for actual camping purposes they're pretty telegraphed and easy to avoid or powershield.

Flame Choking for the most part is a bad idea in this matchup since Lucas has N-air and D-smash, and his PK Fire will punish it if you're not focused on powershielding it.

All Ganondorf has to do however is predict when he does *insert attack* and outprioritize it with a longer ranged attack.

But as I was saying, PK Fire sucks. Powershield it in midrange, and you can easily punish it with a Dash Attack. Flame Choke is just a tad too slow though unless you were REALLY close.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

...

The only thing Lucas's projectiles do is make it really annoying when you're offstage. I'm serious...for actual camping purposes they're pretty telegraphed and easy to avoid or powershield.

Flame Choking for the most part is a bad idea in this matchup since Lucas has N-air and D-smash, and his PK Fire will punish it if you're not focused on powershielding it.

All Ganondorf has to do however is predict when he does *insert attack* and outprioritize it with a longer ranged attack.

But as I was saying, PK Fire sucks. Powershield it in midrange, and you can easily punish it with a Dash Attack. Flame Choke is just a tad too slow though unless you were REALLY close.

About every other projectile is easy to avoid or powershield in the game. Powershielding isn't the answer to Ganondorf's projectile problems, if it was, he wouldn't be such a bad character. Aside from being big, large and heavy, Ganondorf lacks OoS options. Yes, he may be able to fend off a few PK-Fires with powershields, but that's where it stops - he won't be able to do anything ELSE about it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucas is also a terrible character...most of his moves are all really situational and don't have many outright great uses. That's also why I'm pretty convinced that Lucas isn't such a terrible matchup for Ganondorf.

With some intelligent stage control, there is not much that is safe that Lucas can do vs Ganondorf either.

 

[Zeallyx]

Lucas is also a terrible character...most of his moves are all really situational and don't have many outright great uses. That's also why I'm pretty convinced that Lucas isn't such a terrible matchup for Ganondorf.

With some intelligent stage control, there is not much that is safe that Lucas can do vs Ganondorf either.

Uhm yes there is. Pk fire, for example.
One cant assume the ganon spaces well and the lucas doesnt. Thats not a matchup discussion.

 

[thexsunrosered]

Uhm yes there is. Pk fire, for example.
One cant assume the ganon spaces well and the lucas doesnt. Thats not a matchup discussion.

geez you're everywhere today

 

[ul7r05]

sdkjfskdjfkfsj

 

[Ganonsburg]

Anyways, no offense A2ZOMG I'm sure your a great player, but your throwing your personal skill into consideration when talking about the match-up against Lucas. You have to look at it in an ominous point of view. In general, projectiles are always a pain in the rear for someone like Ganondorf. I mean not every player relies on power-shielding, nor can do it on command every time, thus making it difficult in general for Ganon. So, again no offense, just suggesting that perhaps throwing your own personal skill into a match-up discussion would not exactly be the best way to discuss the topic.

He didn't really throw personal skill in there. It's just that Lucas' projectiles don't have much range (aside from PKT), and they all have decent lag. And he yells the move name before anything happens.

(BTW, did you mean omnipotent or omniscient? All present or all knowing? Neither really fits, but ominous makes less sense. Unless you meant something else.)

 

[TP]

(BTW, did you mean omnipotent or omniscient? All present or all knowing? Neither really fits, but ominous makes less sense. Unless you meant something else.)

I'm guessing he meant objective.

Remember, when discussing matchups, we discuss how the matchup should go at the highest levels of play. The difficulty of doing something is irrelevant, unless the difficulty is extreme, such as concerning chainchoking. Therefore, powershielding is assumed as pretty easy when determining the matchup number. On the other hand, in the summary it would be nice to include an alternative for people who can't powershield everything. The matchup discussion serves two purposes, after all: establishing a ratio AND providing advice for how to win.

 

[lil cj]

Lucas is also a terrible character...most of his moves are all really situational and don't have many outright great uses. That's also why I'm pretty convinced that Lucas isn't such a terrible matchup for Ganondorf.

With some intelligent stage control, there is not much that is safe that Lucas can do vs Ganondorf either.

Lucas isnt a terrible character...
He's mid tier material
You must not have played a good Lucas before

 

[GotenOnNimbus]

Lucas is also a terrible character...most of his moves are all really situational and don't have many outright great uses. That's also why I'm pretty convinced that Lucas isn't such a terrible matchup for Ganondorf.

With some intelligent stage control, there is not much that is safe that Lucas can do vs Ganondorf either.

Lucas' multihit attacks (specifically Nair > Jab) Give everyone problems, same with PK Fire and Fsmash, how are most of his moves situational? Unless you count trying to KO with Fsmash "situational..."

PKT's great for any time Ganon's not on the ground, PK Fire's great for anytime he is on the ground.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm guessing he meant objective.

Remember, when discussing matchups, we discuss how the matchup should go at the highest levels of play. The difficulty of doing something is irrelevant, unless the difficulty is extreme, such as concerning chainchoking. Therefore, powershielding is assumed as pretty easy when determining the matchup number. On the other hand, in the summary it would be nice to include an alternative for people who can't powershield everything. The matchup discussion serves two purposes, after all: establishing a ratio AND providing advice for how to win.

Not really, even chainchoking if we could just prove whether or not it would work (hint, we need 8 frames of leeway), is viable for match-up discussions.


But yes, top of what is humanly possible is what we discuss in match-up discussions, so if you play Ganon lrn2powershield.

Period, otherwise you're screwed.

 

[ul7r05]

Third-person omniscient point of view is what I meant. Well whatever, maybe I'm wrong about discussing the match-up. I'll just stfu about this discussion.

 

[Conspiricy]

I find lucas matches really irritating. I play fairly good lucas's a lot and thier spacing with fair, ftilt and bair makes it tricky to start momentum against him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Uhm yes there is. Pk fire, for example.
One cant assume the ganon spaces well and the lucas doesnt. Thats not a matchup discussion.

PK Fire isn't safe. Powershield -> Dash attack at mid range.

Even if Lucas spaces well, whenever he attacks, he's also at risk trading hits since Ganondorf has a range advantage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

EDIT: Whoops, double post.

Lucas isnt a terrible character...
He's mid tier material
You must not have played a good Lucas before

I've played some good Lucases in tournament and friendlies. In tournament, they don't win against my Mario.

His KO moves are all situational except in a few matchups (all his Smashes are too slow and don't have EXCELLENT range to compensate, his throws don't KO early enough, and neither do his aerials). His camping sucks because it poses basically no threat since it's easily reacted to. His recovery is decent, and that's about it. All you have to do to win against Lucas is watch out for random smashes, powershield his PK Fire, and he really doesn't have much that he can do to threaten you since he's nowhere nearly as disjointedly safe as guys like MK, G&W, and Marth.

As I was saying, the only moves that really give Ganondorf any trouble are N-air, F-smash, and D-smash (and to a lesser extent grab) in this matchup (with everything else being easy to defend against on reaction).

As for Lucas's PK Fire and Thunder, they pretty much should only hit Ganondorf when he's recovering. PK Thunder can be outprioritized by a number of attacks. PK Fire is stupid on stage due to its telegraphed nature.

 

[ul7r05]

65-35 Pit's favor.

 

[Z1GMA]

I don't find this match-up that hard.
(Maybe I haven't fought a campy enough Pit)

30 : 70

Our Dtilt has too many uses vs Pit.
We've got delicious Gerudo Options.

Pit's Arrows are hella annoying (effective), though ;\

 

[TP]

Nobody uses Pit. I don't think I've fought a single Pit player... ever.

 

[Noobicidal]

I've only fought a secondary Pit once, so I can't give any advice on this MU.

 

[Conspiricy]

Pit on FD is plain gay.

arrow spam and looping just gets on my nerves.

20:80 to him