"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[B!squick]

Probably because it clanks, right? The link I posted mentions that clanking attacks don't get stale and thus don't refresh your other moves.

 

[fromundaman]

Now...


70-30 at best.

Basically Ray said it pretty well, but there's something else that nobody on this board seems to know about Mario. You probably haven't seen this technique in tournaments yet because the mario boards are still trying to get the timing right reliably (yes, a legitimately hard AT in brawl, who knew?), but it's extremely powerful in a number of match-ups.


I'm referring to cape teleport, you can read it for a full explanation, but I think my short explanation will suffice.

When you sweetspot the ledge, it can be used to remove your ledgegrab invincibility and freeze you in place.


This is enough to push recovering from "a lot of the time, you won't make it back" to "you'll never recover against mario unless you screws up royally". Unfortunately, below used to be the best angle to recover against mario, and now this totally covers it.


Yea, at the top of the metagame, this becomes an almost Snake-level match-up.

Only if they're "living projectiles", for example, IC's ice blocks. I honestly don't know if fireballs are living projectiles.

True, but I don't think there's any Mario player who can consistently do it, or even knows the timing for it for every character. For that reason, I don't think it should be mentioned.

Mario should NOT have an easy time killing you (gimping notwithstanding). His only solid kill move is fsmash... be more careful :\

That's true, but he sets up the gimps VERY easily, and if he does need to outright kill, Usmash isn't half bad either, though it's nowhere near as good as Fsmash.
But yeah, setting up a gimp in this matchup is ridiculously easy. Dsmash will do it, Nair will do it (and it's easy to land. SH Dair on shield to footstooled Nair will always hit with the sweetspot), Ftilt will, Uair can, Bair will...

Once Ganon's offstage, a barrage of fireballs will gimp you unless Ganon DJ Uairs, and if that does happen, Mario can just jump into your UpB and hit you with Nair for an insulting 'lol @ your recovery' KO. Then there's also cape and FLUDD, so yeah...
Mario shouldn't really NEED outright KOs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've played this matchup a million times on both ends, so srsly it's 60/40.

It's pretty lame if you go up against a Mario that doesn't make many mistakes, since he's got everything he needs to pretty much destroy in this matchup, but I mean it's not all that simple since even good players make spacing mistakes with fireballs.

 

[adumbrodeus]

True, but I don't think there's any Mario player who can consistently do it, or even knows the timing for it for every character. For that reason, I don't think it should be mentioned.

I disagree, this is the metagame as it currently exists, our match-ups are supposed to be accurate, baring new discovery, and based on the top of the metagame.


The fact that there aren't any mario players AT the top of the metagame right now shouldn't change the fact this one discovery makes this match-up a lot harder for Ganon players, and really, we shouldn't be caught with our pants down when Mario players actually start using it properly (and believe me, they're working hard on it, thanks partially to a little prodding from moi).


At the top of the metagame, my opinion stands, 70-30.

I've played this matchup a million times on both ends, so srsly it's 60/40.

It's pretty lame if you go up against a Mario that doesn't make many mistakes, since he's got everything he needs to pretty much destroy in this matchup, but I mean it's not all that simple since even good players make spacing mistakes with fireballs.

Top of the metagame.

Unless it's Ganon-induced.

 

[fromundaman]

I disagree, this is the metagame as it currently exists, our match-ups are supposed to be accurate, baring new discovery, and based on the top of the metagame.


The fact that there aren't any mario players AT the top of the metagame right now shouldn't change the fact this one discovery makes this match-up a lot harder for Ganon players, and really, we shouldn't be caught with our pants down when Mario players actually start using it properly (and believe me, they're working hard on it, thanks partially to a little prodding from moi).


At the top of the metagame, my opinion stands, 70-30.



Top of the metagame.

Unless it's Ganon-induced.

Hmmm... if they finally started practicing it, then I honestly think they should start making two different ratios for it. The reason is, at the moment, you won't see it happen. By the time the next discussion comes around, it may be the norm.

However, that's kind of like when chain-choking was discovered and it was thought to potentially be an infinite (though not for long if I remember correctly). It was disregarded in matchup discussions at the time since there was no Ganon who could consistently do it perfectly.

What I mean is that Mario matchups shouldn't be based on something no Mario can do, yet at the same time the AT should not be ignored. If it were, a lot of his matchups would look very differently.

That being said, if we take the cape teleport into account, I agree on 70-30. Otherwise, 60-40 sounds good. MAYBE 65-35 considering how easy it still is to gimp, but I'd need to seriously play this matchup to know for sure.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Hmmm... if they finally started practicing it, then I honestly think they should start making two different ratios for it. The reason is, at the moment, you won't see it happen. By the time the next discussion comes around, it may be the norm.

However, that's kind of like when chain-choking was discovered and it was thought to potentially be an infinite (though not for long if I remember correctly). It was disregarded in matchup discussions at the time since there was no Ganon who could consistently do it perfectly.

What I mean is that Mario matchups shouldn't be based on something no Mario can do, yet at the same time the AT should not be ignored. If it were, a lot of his matchups would look very differently.

That being said, if we take the cape teleport into account, I agree on 70-30. Otherwise, 60-40 sounds good. MAYBE 65-35 considering how easy it still is to gimp, but I'd need to seriously play this matchup to know for sure.

Chainchoking SHOULD be included, the thing is, we don't have the frame data to establish whether it actually works at normal speed. Basically, we need to the frame data for the get-up attacks and rolls.


If it actually does work, it should improve our match-ups a lot, but we can't say that it technically works till we get the frame data.

So, really, that's the elephant in the room for chainchoking, and that's why we shouldn't use it for match-ups.


Btw, I can almost guarantee that we have an infinite on small enough platforms.


So, basically I disagree, if it's humanly possible, we should include it in match-up discussions, because that's what the top of the metagame is, what's "humanly possible".

 

[B!squick]

I think this will help you guys on proper match-up discussion procedure.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705

 

[Phiddlesticks]

but at the top of the metagame wouldnt ganondorf just tech the stagespike every time????????

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think this will help you guys on proper match-up discussion procedure.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705

We're more dealing with it implicitly, if you want us to really explicitly explain the reasoning, challenge an assertion that you think is incorrect, and then we get into the direct mechanics of it.

I think the bowser discussion illustrated that pretty well.


But our Marth discussion illustrated it much better.


By the way, Steel doesn't get everything in that thread, some important aspects he ignored are brought up later. I suggest that you read it.

but at the top of the metagame wouldnt ganondorf just tech the stagespike every time????????

I don't think it's possible to wall-tech that. I need to double check with the wall-tech mechanics to be sure however.

 

[B!squick]

Like what? I have work soon and I don't have time to look, lol.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Like what? I have work soon and I don't have time to look, lol.

Mindgames really. The thing is rather then exploring what they do as a potential force, he simply ignores them, and mindgames do have an effect on match-ups. I'm not talking about "assuming you get f-smashed by Ike, MINDGAMES", I'm talking about, "let's talk about it in terms of probabilities and degree of mistakes"

The post I linked to explains it pretty in-depth, and the thread that post links to gives a full explanation of how to quantify it.

 

[fromundaman]

Mindgames really. The thing is rather then exploring what they do as a potential force, he simply ignores them, and mindgames do have an effect on match-ups. I'm not talking about "assuming you get f-smashed by Ike, MINDGAMES", I'm talking about, "let's talk about it in terms of probabilities and degree of mistakes"

The post I linked to explains it pretty in-depth, and the thread that post links to gives a full explanation of how to quantify it.

Not a bad point. After all, discussing Sonic without discussing mindgames, or at least the immense capacity they have for it, gives a wrong impression of the matchup.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Not a bad point. After all, discussing Sonic without discussing mindgames, or at least the immense capacity they have for it, gives a wrong impression of the matchup.

Not just Sonic, it factors into almost every match-up, but it's also very important for the ICs, and in the Snake vs. MK match-up, it's the reason why Snake doesn't just die on the ground (MK outranges all his safe moves on the ground with dtilt, but there's only a few pixels between it's range and dropped grenades). Realistically it factors into every match-up, but it's especially important for characters that can bait well or characters that can punish well.

 

[PhantomX]

MINDGAMES DON'T AFFECT MATCHUPS WHATSOEVER. THEY ARE CALLED MIND GAMES BECAUSE THEY INVOLVE MINDS, CHARACTERS DON'T HAVE MINDS, THEY JUST REGISTER YOUR INPUTS, THUS, THE PLAYER HAS MINDGAMES, THE CHARACTER HAS NOT, AND THAT IS WHY THEY DO NOT MATTER TO MATCHUPS.

Baiting at least involves some of the mechanics of Brawl, as certain characters with deceptive move ranges or fast speeds allow easier baiting, which is why it's the only form of mindgame that is worth ****.

Standing still, in place, is a mindgame, does that involve anything character specific? No.

I will start killing people if they try to mention mindgames in matchup discussions where I have the power to do something about it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

MINDGAMES DON'T AFFECT MATCHUPS WHATSOEVER. THEY ARE CALLED MIND GAMES BECAUSE THEY INVOLVE MINDS, CHARACTERS DON'T HAVE MINDS, THEY JUST REGISTER YOUR INPUTS, THUS, THE PLAYER HAS MINDGAMES, THE CHARACTER HAS NOT, AND THAT IS WHY THEY DO NOT MATTER TO MATCHUPS.

Baiting at least involves some of the mechanics of Brawl, as certain characters with deceptive move ranges or fast speeds allow easier baiting, but mindgames are worth ****.

Standing still, in place, is a mindgame, does that involve anything character specific? No.

I will start killing people if they try to mention mindgames in matchup discussions where I have the power to do something about it.

....

READ THE THREAD!

That's why it's mindgames POTENTIAL, not mindgames itself. Stuff like raw chance, margin of error, and damage done do not effect match-ups.


Take this situation:

Character 1 has these options:

option 1, option 2, option 3, and option 4.


Character 2 has these options.

move 1, move 2, move 3, move 4,


Character 1's options deal with character 2's options as follows...

Option 1: Beats move 1, move 2, move 3, is beaten by move 4.

Option 2: Beats move 1, move 2, move 4, is beaten by move 3.

Option 3: Beats move 1, move 3, move 4, is beaten by move 2.

Option 4: Beats move 2, move 3, move 4, is beaten by move 1.


Assuming all else is equal, what are they odds that Character 2 will win an exchange? 1/4.

So, how can we say that their options are equal in this case? Sure superior skill at reading patterns cam allow player 2 to prevail, but it's a lot easier to predict that player 2 will use "move beaten by option 3" then for player 2 to predict that player one will use "option beaten by move 2".


And that's where Mindgames potential comes in, it measures how easy it is for an opponent to make a mistake and how damaging the mistake is.


This is not, "I will mindgame you into Ike's f-smash, lolz", this is, "let's look at quantifiable attributes".


Look at the discussion follow my post in the proper discussion of match-ups after I mention this, the response was generally positive, and the greatest disagreement came from somebody saying "mix-up potential" was a better word.

 

[PhantomX]

That is a much better word. Mindgaming is tricking someone into something, has nothing to do with character strengths. Also, better than mix-up potential is versatility or, "options" lol.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That is a much better word. Mindgaming is tricking someone into something, has nothing to do with character strengths. Also, better than mix-up potential is versatility or, "options" lol.

Mix-up potential refers to attack patterns, so it's somewhat tighter then mindgames potential, but it's the same sort of concept I'm trying to get across. As I told Emblem Lord, defensive options, or even doing nothing can be an option, and one that wins in certain situations.


Options is both too limited and too broad for what I'm talking about. Options is everything that a character can do, without reference to their actually effectiveness, but it certainly comes into play with the "raw chance" factor.

Versatility is actually a more specialized form of options, it's how many options that you have require a unique counter or set of counters from your other moves. It's pretty much directly where the raw chance category comes from.


Remember, there's still the effectiveness categories, as well as raw chance, so versatility or options simply don't work.


Basically, characters attributes (such as versatility and power) decide two things, how often you should "trick" an opponent in a match-up (in other words, how often your opponent should make an action that your action will counter, and the counter can be as simple as shielding) at an equal skill level at the top of the metagame, and how powerful the results are for doing this successfully.


Since we're measuring the character attributes and their effect on the match-up, it's completely Kosher for match-up discussion, in fact, it's something that match-ups were lacking for a while. I can point out a number of characters that were "theory-craft better" then they actually were, simply because our theorycraft did not take this into account.


Basically, if on-paper results don't match up with real-life results, either the players are doing it wrong, or find a better paper. In the case of mindgames potential, it's definitely "find a better paper".

 

[TKD]

Successful mind-game play makes you win exchanges or come out on top in situations where your opponent didn't make a mistake. Mind-games, errors, mistakes and such aren't factors when discussing match-ups. They're up to the player and not the character. Plus the very term "mindgames" shouldn't be defined since it's so subjective.

BTW good stuff boards, on a COMPLETE match-up chart! It's the only one I've seen in SWF.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Successful mind-game play makes you win exchanges or come out on top in situations where your opponent didn't make a mistake. Mind-games, errors, mistakes and such aren't factors when discussing match-ups. They're up to the player and not the character. Plus the very term "mindgames" shouldn't be defined since it's so subjective.

BTW good stuff boards, on a COMPLETE match-up chart! It's the only one I've seen in SWF.

Mindgames POTENTIAL.

We're not talking about mindgames themselves, we're talking about concrete quantifiable attributes of the characters that enhance or detract from the player's abilities. Once you start talking about an individual player's abilities itself (except in terms of what is humanly possible), you're out of the realm of match-ups and in the realm of "lolz, I mindgame you into Ike's f-smash, 100-0", but any character attribute can play a part in match-ups.



3 Posts above yours there was concrete illustration of this concept, and a link to a thread which explains what quantifiable factors we're talking about and how they influence the actual match-up. Seriously, read the thread.


If you wanna understand this concept in terms of something that doesn't have the "mindgames" stigma, check "mix-up" in fighting games, same basic idea, but expanded to include spacing, defense, and doing nothing. Any option basically.


And mindgames is pattern recognition. Plain and simple.



Yeah, we're good like that. Marth boards too.

 

[Terra~]

Good job on finishing half the rosters match-ups. I'm going through all the boards, encouraging them to keep up the work as I am working on a chart with all the discussed match-ups from every board. This will give everyone an idea of what everyone thinks at a glance. Once again, great work, keep it up!

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Alright, it's about time to move on. I'll need the ratios from the 10 panelists.

 

[B!squick]

Alright, it's about time to move on. I'll need the ratios from the 10 panelists.

Why do I keep thinking of The Match Game everytime I see that?

 

[TP]

If Mario waits for his openings by using fireballs until you are vulnerable, you are going to have a hard time avoiding his combos. However, he is pretty easy to kill, with his only average weight and recovery. Just don't be aggressive offstage, because his uppercut is so fast that you need to lure it out first. 65-35 Mario.

 

[adumbrodeus]

My earlier ratio stands.

70-30, ouch. Don't get off-stage, ever.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'm changing the Ice Climbers match-up, so that it's not 100:0. One grab could mean death, which is true, but DAir, DTilt, and FSmash could be a ***** against them, it does a wonderful job on both separating them and racking up damage. Ganon could do a awesome job gimping Nana (if she's separated) off-stage. It's 85:15 or 90:10 at worst.

On the other hand, the Ganon:Olimar match-up is 100:0. I'm not kidding. All of Olimar's Smashes are SAFE on shield, maybe not all the time, but 9 out of 10 times Olimar does a smash, he's NOT gonna get punished for it, no matter what we do (sidestep, shield, short hop airdodge, jump around him, jump on him, jump around him then on him, jump on him or around him, jump on him but fake the jump around him, unplug the players controller, okay you get the point). Then there's his Pikmins he could use to camp Ganon from far away, he's NEVER gonna approach you (unlike the climbers). He also has incredible gimp tools + KO power which could kill from 40-105%.

Snake is as hard a match-up as Metaknight. Even without his grab-release to boost grab (buffered properly) on us, he's still around 75:15. He could pop out grenades before ANYTHING you do. Camping with them is also efficient against Ganon, you can't powershield them unless you want them to explode on you, and thanks to Ganon's crippled mobility you can't just run up to Snake and stop him before he throws the grenade in time. He also survives Ganon's attacks above normal, as long as 150%, and kills you at 100%.

Donkey Kong should be at least 65:35 in his favour. Donkey is a 2x better Ganon. He's like Ganon but has better options to everything. Better OoS options, better juggling, more range, a better grab/grab game, better mobility, better speed, better recovery, and a charged up B move with super frames (which is like a better version of Warlock punch). Also, this guy survives FOREVER. The one thing Ganon has to rely on to win his matches, are early kills, but if can't get them, he's pretty much screwed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can't D-air or F-smash against good ICs. That will get you grabbed. If they predict/react to that right, they'll just dashgrab you out of that. And you'll get camped anyway.

You'll survive pretty long against Olimar at least with some good DI, and he CAN be punished with some sick F-air, Flame Choke, and Wizkick baiting. Edgeguarding him isn't hard either with edgehogging and U-air being solid options on his recovery.

Sheik by far is worse than Olimar since you don't last very long against her, and you have the same problem that most of her stuff is very safe on your shield since all your out of shield options are slow. Her special moves are all gay in some way, and she's a pro at edgeguarding and gimping.

Also vs DDD. This matchup somehow is okish. As long as you stay calm, just react to everything he does, and you can make his life hard since most of his options are either predictable, or quite weak if not fresh. If he does Inhale, F-air his head. Works every time. Fullhop N-air out of shield is REALLY good in this matchup. Yoshis in my experience seems to be a good stage versus him. The high part of the platform will go too high for him to U-tilt/U-smash you iirc. But you can U-air him if he sits there. And eating a U-air from DDD isn't really a bad thing. The chaingrab is also fairly limited on this stage due to its short length.

 

[Z1GMA]

Alright, it's about time to move on. I'll need the ratios from the 10 panelists.

35 : 65

 

[A2ZOMG]

Osnap, I forgot I was a panelist.

So anyhow, 4/6.

 

[*JuriHan*]

u guys need 2 srsly re-do kirby its not 60:40.

 

[sasook]

Hey arch-enemy mains , the Links discussed this matchup not long ago, and we were wondering if you could critique the writeup for us. The thing is, the Links moved to AiB a while ago after a huge fight with the mods, and eventually we realized not everyone on SWF has AiB accounts, so sometimes when we asked boards to come comment, they couldn't. So we came to a compromise - after the writeup is finished, post it on the SWF boards of said character, and ask them to comment/critique.

Kalm did help a lot with this matchup, but I don't remember if any other Ganons commented. Anyways, your input is appreciated. If you feel like something is wrong or is a misconception, please do tell.

Without further delay, here is the Link board's analysis:

Link's Advantages

* Projectiles destroy the slow, large Ganondorf.
* Zair spacing is very easy against Ganondorf.
* Ganondorf is extremely easy to Jab Lock or GBAL.
* Link's DI enables him to survive even Ganondorf's KO Power at percents others would usually die to.
* Ganondorf cannot deal with Link's Jab Cancel's. He has nothing to break them with.
* Ganondorf is very easy to gimp for Link. Arrows and Gale Boomerang destroy Ganon offstage.

Ganondorf's Advantages

* Incredible KO Power.
* Can appear very quick with the use of buffering.
* Reverse Uair Offstage gimps Link at any %.
* Powerful Dair Spike.

Yet another match-up we can win. Oh dear. I just don't know what to do with myself. Link has a very good advantage over Ganondorf. Link has the option of completely shutting Ganondorf down with his camping game. Ganondorf has no reliable way of getting around Link's projectiles and Ganondorf's slow speed and small jumps make it that much harder for Ganondorf to do anything about Link's projectiles. Link's Jab Cancel's ruin Ganondorf, he has no reliable combo breaker against them. You can decide how you want to finish a Jab Cancel against Ganondorf, it's probably going to work. Ganondorf has some neat tech-chases out of his Flame Choke and has a guarnteed Flame Choke>Jab agsint Link. This will probably be the more used method to rack up damage on you. Ganondorf offstage is pretty easy to gimp. Gale Boomerang stops any attempt Ganon might have of trying to get you back onstage and it stops his Flame Choke Suicude attempts also. Arrows wreck Ganondort offstage. An arrow will stop all momentum Ganon had moving back toward the stage and force him into using his terrible second jump or recovery which at this point is very very easy to edgehog. Offstage Zair can also produce similar effects. The only thing Ganon can do to Link offstage is reverse Uair but we've already established that Link's Gale Boomerang can stop his offstage attempts on you. Regardless Reverse Uair is a thread, watch out for Ganondorf's Dair spike to. Link's DI gives him the ability to survive even against Ganondorf's tremendous KO power. Most characters would die at around the late 90%'s or early 100%'s where as Link can survive up to around 110% with proper DI and Momentum Canceling.

Where should I stage CP Ganondorf?
Final Destination. You can camp Ganondorf so hard here he won't be able to do much at all. Battlefield may give Ganondorf a little help, but it's still a stage where you can beat him on. Norfair is always an option as is Halberd.

 

[PK-ow!]

Projectiles do not destroy the slow, large Ganondorf. Not Link's, anyway. Bombs are as good as they normally are, while arrows are as useless as they normally are, and Boomerang can be power shielded but is not spammable.

EDIT: They can both gimp each other pretty bad, alright? So let's just say whoever goes off stage first is *****.


Oh and Kalm, if ICs aren't 100:0 then I can't see Sheik at 95:5.

 

[:034:]

Ganondorf can gimp Link by looking at him

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Projectiles do not destroy the slow, large Ganondorf. Not Link's, anyway. Bombs are as good as they normally are, while arrows are as useless as they normally are, and Boomerang can be power shielded but is not spammable.

EDIT: They can both gimp each other pretty bad, alright? So let's just say whoever goes off stage first is *****.


Oh and Kalm, if ICs aren't 100:0 then I can't see Sheik at 95:5.

Link's projectiles are more of a pain for Ganondorf than anyone else. Since Ganon's like the slowest, and largest character, Link's not gonna have his usual " oh how do I land a projectile" problem.

Both characters could gimp each other, but Link has a easier time at doing so. Unlike Link, Ganon doesn't have a boomerang we could whiff out while recovering.

 

[B!squick]

I had no idea Link could gimp. O.o Unless it just involves tossing stuff over the ledge... I mean, it's more likely that Ganon would be getting Link off stage than vice versa, so...

 

[*JuriHan*]

Ganondorf can gimp Link by looking at him

lol! This.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I had no idea Link could gimp. O.o Unless it just involves tossing stuff over the ledge... I mean, it's more likely that Ganon would be getting Link off stage than vice versa, so...

Link could gimp, and you're wrong about Ganon getting Link off stage faster.

 

[TP]

Link gimping Ganon? What?

Link can regrab with hookshot so that he always has invincibility on the ledge, but he can't gimp Ganon in any other way if you're smart. Legan couldn't gimp me at all, IIRC. Of course, I couldn't really gimp him either. Most stocks lasted until well over 100% for both of us. And Link's camping is NOT hard to get around, as long as you aren't predictable. Even on FD, I was able to pressure Legan the whole time. He won of course, but that's because he's a better player than me and using a better character.

In other words, I disagree with much of the matchup summary.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I don't really feel like arguing, but Link IS able to gimp. Run off-stage > NAir > DJ NAir. Please don't involve what didn't happen in your matches,Twilight.

 

[TP]

I don't really feel like arguing, but Link IS able to gimp. Run off-stage > NAir > DJ NAir. Please don't involve what didn't happen in your matches,Twilight.

Can't you just DI the Nair up? Or better yet, recover low?

I don't really feel like arguing either, though.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Can't you just DI the Nair up? Or better yet, recover low?

I don't really feel like arguing either, though.

You could, but it doesn't stop you from getting gimped.