"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[B!squick]

I thought you were referring to what PhantomX was talking about, the surprise hit. Ok, I see now.


Look, my entire point was that I don't need to see it coming because I can react to it. It's got 23 frames of start-up lag, at point-blank range. That's long enough for me to put down the controller, make a spot of hot coco, write a few posts on smashboards, balance my checkbook, discuss the meaning of life over tea and crumpets, and still have enough time to react to bowser's flame breath.


Ok, so you're planning to miss, but as I said, Ganondorf is well in range so even if your aim is just to occupy space with it, unless you're far enough that it doesn't really matter in the first place, he can still punish you on reaction.

If you're so sure you can, go for it...

[I mentioned Klaw]

That was more his defensive options, I'd consider Klaw a kitten-killing offensive option.

If you say so.

@A2ZOMG
Bowser's FSmash has deceptive range, sir.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So, can we move on to finding the actual number? Looks like the discussion has run its course.

I'm planning on letting these discussion go on for about a week, that way we get a more clear idea of how to play the match-up a lot better, and a much more accurate match-up ratio.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you're so sure you can, go for it...

See above.

I already tested this stuff, the only signifigant question is whether doing it aerially has any effect whatsoever on this issue.

If you say so.

Errrr, versus Fortress and it's combo break/punish almost anything capacity and an infinite chaingrab. I'd say that Klaw really doesn't really shine as a defensive option in this match-up primarily because of what you're comparing it to.

@A2ZOMG
Bowser's FSmash has deceptive range, sir.

Yes it doesn, but it's still easily shielded and punished.

 

[B!squick]

See above.

I already tested this stuff, the only signifigant question is whether doing it aerially has any effect whatsoever on this issue.



Errrr, versus Fortress and it's combo break/punish almost anything capacity and an infinite chaingrab. I'd say that Klaw really doesn't really shine as a defensive option in this match-up primarily because of what you're comparing it to.

Kitten killer? Come on, man, I think it's alot more dangerous than "kitten killing". Unless you find kittens to be terrorfying ferocious beasts, lol.

Yes it doesn, but it's still easily shielded and punished.

Then you obviously don't use when the other person can shield it. It'd kinda not be a punishing move otherwise.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Kitten killer? Come on, man, I think it's alot more dangerous than "kitten killing". Unless you find kittens to be terrorfying ferocious beasts, lol.

You misunderstand, I'm not saying you can use it to kill kittens, I'm saying it's so bad*** that just by using it, you kill kittens above and beyond any effects using it in the match has.

It's part of the cosmetic effects of the move, you know, ominious latin chanting, the bowser player's eyes aquiring an ominious yellow glow, kittens dying, etc. It's all part of the package.

Then you obviously don't use when the other person can shield it. It'd kinda not be a punishing move otherwise.

And on that note we're perfectly in agreement, that was really what I was getting at.

However, it's rather slow, limiting it's punishing ability.

 

[PhantomX]

I HONESTLY don't see this as worse than 45:55 for Ganon. I find it to be one of his most manageable matchups by far.

Bowser's giant hurtboxes and slowness mean Ganondorf can actually do stuff to you. Being a defensive character as well, but lacking in the disjointed hitboxes that makes defensive character **** Ganon, we have many options vs you guys; especially since dtilt outranges Bowser's bread and butter move. Bowser is also very susceptible to tipman spikes, due to the nature of his recovery (low vertical height gain, optimally used a little below stage level) and he, like us, has a fairly unimpressive grab.

 

[B!squick]

@adum

Ah, okay, from the way I read it you were brushing it off as something that was only meant to kill kittens. XD

I HONESTLY don't see this as worse than 45:55 for Ganon. I find it to be one of his most manageable matchups by far.

Bowser's giant hurtboxes and slowness-

Attack lag, right? You'd be johning yourself if you meant his dash and air speed and knew that Bowser attacks faster than Captain Falcon.

mean Ganondorf can actually do stuff to you. Being a defensive character as well, but lacking in the disjointed hitboxes

SideB, the Klaw...

would disagree.

that makes defensive character **** Ganon, we have many options vs you guys; especially since dtilt outranges Bowser's bread and butter move. Bowser is also very susceptible to tipman spikes, due to the nature of his recovery (low vertical height gain, optimally used a little below stage level)

D: No.

With Bowser you recover high, always. You DI to the upper corners of the blast zones, use his air speed to glide over to the stage, and then DownB to the ledge. If they're recoverying low, they're either doing it wrong or were recently spiked. Bowser should never purposefully recover low.

and he, like us, has a fairly unimpressive grab.

Hey, it still works. Jab cancels nicely to it. Too bad Ganon doesn't know what that's like.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@adum

Ah, okay, from the way I read it you were brushing it off as something that was only meant to kill kittens. XD

context good sir.

My post before that was:

Ganon can't take advantage of him like he would with most other characters forced to approach because of fortress and the grab release infinite just kills kittens.

I think that whole sentence establishes "kills kittens" as a compliment.

With Bowser you recover high, always. You DI to the upper corners of the blast zones, use his air speed to glide over to the stage, and then DownB to the ledge. If they're recoverying low, they're either doing it wrong or were recently spiked. Bowser should never purposefully recover low.

Not necessarily, some of Ganon's attacks have nice angles for that (jab, ftilt), Bowser doesn't exactly have a particularly high jump.

Oh, and Jab is guaranteed out of flame-choke.

 

[MrEh]

Just set the ratio to "LOL" and be done with it.

Bowser and Ganon is epic enough as it is.

Bowser's F-smash is pretty mediocre

Bowser's Fsmash is the one thing that screws over Marth.

 

[TP]

Hey, it still works. Jab cancels nicely to it. Too bad Ganon doesn't know what that's like.

Ganon does have a jab cancel. He uses his jab, then the word "GAME" appears on the screen and things start going slow-motion.

 

[B!squick]

Ganon does have a jab cancel. He uses his jab, then the word "GAME" appears on the screen and things start going slow-motion.

Lol, yeah, there is that.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

Firebreath simply ***** especially if ganon is really close to the edge

 

[A2ZOMG]

@A2ZOMG
Bowser's FSmash has deceptive range, sir.

I know all about it. I main Mario, the king of deceptive range F-smashes.

Bowser's F-smash doesn't reach all that far...he only leans back a fair bit before attacking, but the actual distance he reaches from his standing position isn't THAT far. If you did a standing test to see who can reach father, Marth vs Bowser, Marth wins this one easily.

Now take someone like Mario...his F-smash ACTUALLY outranges Marth's. I don't just mean crazy leanback. The stutter step makes him hit a spot from REALLY far away. Now that's a big deal.

Firebreath simply ***** especially if ganon is really close to the edge

Not really, usually the getup attack outprioritizes it. If you try to space outside of the getup attack range, there is edgecamping.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Alright, before I go and change the character, I'm going to need a ratio from the 10 panelists.

So if you're Koskinator, Ray Kalm, Z1gma, Twilight Prince, Gleam, Flying Dutchman, Squirrely, A2Zomg, Adumbrodeus, and PhantomX post what you think the ratio for the Ganon:Bowser match-up is, I'll get the average, and see how it works out.

Edit: Koskinator: 50:50

 

[TP]

55:45 Bowser's favor.

Legan is currently ranked as the second best Link. He came in 2nd at the tourney I was at. He has offered to have me stay at his house and play him sometime. If that happens soon, I'll be sure to make a full report on the Ganon-Link matchup.

 

[:034:]

55:45 Bowser's advantage

 

[Gleam]

55/45 Bowser also

 

[B!squick]

Oh, some of you guys wanted to play me. I'm free now and I'll try not to let my bad controller and lag hold me back, lol.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Alright, before I go and change the character, I'm going to need a ratio from the 10 panelists.

So if you're Koskinator, Ray Kalm, Z1gma, Twilight Prince, Gleam, Flying Dutchman, Squirrely, A2Zomg, Adumbrodeus, and PhantomX post what you think the ratio for the Ganon:Bowser match-up is, I'll get the average, and see how it works out.

Edit: Koskinator: 50:50

50-50

I think that at the top of the metagame, Bowser's need to approach evens out his overall advantages in this match-up. Dtilt is amazing in this match-up.

 

[TP]

After playing with JayDeth about 20 times, I am changing my vote to 50:50. I had no idea we had such a huge advantage in the air. Tipman is even easier to do in this matchup than I thought, and choke shenanigans are just lovely. After a choke, just shield. If he does his getup attack, shield grab. If he does not, stomp, SS Fsmash, or choke. Too easy.

 

[B!squick]

I blame WiFi and my own ineptitude with Bowser, no johns. D:

EDIT: Also, the height you were able to go and STILL be able to Aerudo me was seriously ********.

 

[:034:]

i Blame Wifi And My Own Ineptitude With Bowser, no Johns. D:

Wat

 

[B!squick]

What's "johns" mean again? I thought I knew, but I guess I don't, lol.

 

[stRIP]

im not listed by kalm but i would say 55:45 Bowsers Favor

Normally i would discuss a lot with you, but my english really sux and i dont want to. Its kinda embarrassing

 

[TP]

What's "johns" mean again? I thought I knew, but I guess I don't, lol.

An excuse of any kind that reduces the legitimacy of the win. Don't worry though, FD is just messing with you.

 

[B!squick]

Lol, okay. But I really hope you're not basing EVERYTHING off of how bad I am, TP.

 

[Z1GMA]

40:60

 

[Ray_Kalm]

40:60

I'd have to say 40:60, as well.

 

[PhantomX]

I'd say 55:45 Bowser's Favor.

When do we start talking about Link? I've played KirinBlaze's in person, so I have some good input.

 

[Squirrely]

BOWSER

I'll pass up on my usual essay on match-up blather and just toss out my number.

50:50

It hurts not to say more about it.

 

[B!squick]

Why aren't you saying more then? O.o?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Link sucks, just SHAD through his zair, sheild his projectiles ftilt him and gimp. Anyways I dunno how long time ago you wrote that matchup but theres one thing that you should think about, link dont stand still and spam, he moves all the time switch in close range attacks now and then and at least IMO links spam is much better than most characters I only think falco and pit have better spam. Arrows are mostly for edgeguarding and make the spam rate higher with arrowcanceling. Link can make use hit and run tactics against ganon, just move and dodge and get away. There is more to links bombs than just throwing them forward. Bombsliding, FJ dthrow, bombthrow > arrowcanceling, bombdropping, sheild bombing etc... The gale rang is more of a pressure projectile than anything else, if you ever miss dodging/ canceling it you could end up getting knockdown and arrowlocked which leads to several diffrent hardhitting follow ups like DAC(charged) UpB(charged) and Fsmash(at lower percentages for that nasty double hit, charged). When it comes to stages BF is not a bad stage for link. Links spam game change quite a bit and he looses as much options as he gets, read our stage discussion thread.

So why isnt link high tier then and ***** ganon? well link cant really recover, our only how against most characters is to DI well or whiplash(zair the ledge to cancel momentum). Ganon has quite a few moves that hit us in scary trajectories that kill us awfully early. A link player should always try to stand in the center of the stage to avoid early gimps, this means that you should try to get him away from the center and the gerudo works way to good for that, Link HAVE to roll to the sides of the stage to avoid scary follow ups. Once link gets offstage in a bad trajectory its hard to not gimp him sadly.

Ratios are dumb but I do think has an edge vs ganon, not by much though 55-45 or 60-40

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A2zomg is the only one who hasn't post yet, but I think he said 45:55 in one of his posts. I'm just going to have to use that.

Well, the average turned out to be 45.5:54.5 in Bowser's favor.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Phantom, just go ahead and post your input. We've already started the Link discussion.

By the way, what would be the best stage to take Bowser to?

 

[stRIP]

Phantom, just go ahead and post your input. We've already started the Link discussion.

By the way, what would be the best stage to take Bowser to?

NOT Brinstar ...

Dunno about Bowser - Norfair. But i think its a good stage for him too

 

[PhantomX]

Norfair is great for Bowser as well. If you ask me you would want to take him to Delfino. While we share the same strengths for the most part, here we get the bonus of water spikes.

 

[:034:]

I agree on Delfino Plaza... We both share about the same strengths, we both fight close up and the extra space can only do you good. We also get our added share of waterspikes. Otherwise I'd just go with whatever you're comfortable with, or Lylat Cruise.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay, I finished updating the Bowser match-up stuff. I'm still looking for a decent video for it though, the one that's up there is terribly old. Can someone go search for one?

 

[Z1GMA]

I'd take Bowser to either BF - Ganon is better at platform Sharking (which is a big part of BF) .

Yoshi's Island - Garanteed Gerudo -> Dtilt, as well as Ftilt & jab, when you Gerudo while you're stading at higher ground than him.
Bowser can't SH AC any aerials when jumping up a slope, while you can.
Platform Sharking.

 

[Squirrely]

We can SH AC aerials going uphill, z1gma?
I'd love to know how because the slightest elevation in terrain throws off my lagless d-airs and u-airs...
Also, Bowser can't AC d-air, b-air or u-air with a short hop anyways.

I'd take Bowser to Delfino if only for the water ****** and the fact that when I'm Bowser, I often die using up-b to get back to floating stage edges only to go right through it and dying. Kinda like Using Ganon's side-b to recover on the floating stage except Ganon can always use up-b to nail the edge.

Sorry about lingering on Bowser, I'll mull over Link.