"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[adumbrodeus]

I'd use Firebreath in extremely short bursts to zone. Even if Ganon happens to get caught up in it he should be able Choke afterward which is far worse than anything you mentioned.

Even just out of range (which is it's zoning use), you can punish on reaction at min burst, without taking damage.

It's a punishing move at best, and only when your opponent is committed.


Seriously, the only use I can see for flamebreath is when the opponent is on the ledge, Bowser has better on-stage punishing options, and if even Ganondorf can do that on reaction (and with my less then top of the metagame reaction time) I can't see how it would be useful in any match-up. 23 frames of start-up is a LONG time.

And if you want to sit back with your DTilt, that's fine, I'll SH Klaw that all day, no probs.

Not on reaction you won't, you can't jump that high in time. It's a move to throw out occasionally to remind Bowser to approach and occasionally catch him off-guard, but if you predict it right, you can do nasty things, but "if" is the operative word.

Well, in frames it's 3, but yeah, pretty much what you said.

I imagine, depending on the stage mind you, Bowser doing a WoK (wall of Klaw), then Ganon taking to the air, Bower landing and hiding in his shield, Ganon probably not attacking it...

And, yeah, a stalemate ensues. Though I could just be over thinking this. >.>

I could swear that uair goes through claw, or at least reverse uair (properly spaced of course), that thing has a TON of priority.

I can't check right now, could somebody test it? If not, I'll test tomorrow.


Why wouldn't Ganon attack your shield with dtilt? It's safe on block.

 

[B!squick]

Why wouldn't Ganon attack your shield with dtilt? It's safe on block.

A DTilt from the air? Good luck with that. I'm assuming that's in response to my imagining of the match. Other wise, you can direct Fortress to the left and right as you please. Just because Ganon is immune to the initial hitbox doesn't mean the Bowser player is just gonna let it run out on the spot. I looked at the frame data and DTilt lasts for 35 frames, half a secondish. Plenty of time to whirl on into Ganon.

Also, Bowser's SH played out lasts almost exactly as long as Ganon's DTilt. Obviously it depends on the people playing, but it's entirely possible for Ganon to eat a Klaw when DTilting.

 

[adumbrodeus]

A DTilt from the air? Good luck with that.

No, I meant land->spaced dtilt.

Though, maybe a reverse uair. Unless I have a specific plan to use fair, I generally keep Ganon reversed in the air, and I see no reason not to in this match-up.

 

[B!squick]

Sorry, edited my post with more.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sorry, edited my post with more.

Responding now.

A DTilt from the air? Good luck with that. I'm assuming that's in response to my imagining of the match. Other wise, you can direct Fortress to the left and right as you please. Just because Ganon is immune to the initial hitbox doesn't mean the Bowser player is just gonna let it run out on the spot. I looked at the frame data and DTilt lasts for 35 frames, half a secondish. Plenty of time to whirl on into Ganon.

Also, Bowser's SH played out lasts almost exactly as long as Ganon's DTilt. Obviously it depends on the people playing, but it's entirely possible for Ganon to eat a Klaw when DTilting.

No, I checked. I lurk on the Bowser boards (considering him as a secondary, you might've seen me on the discussion) so BELIEVE ME, I would not forget that. I used it in melee too when I occasionally played Bowser.

Because I know that Bowser can maneuver grounded fortress (I mentioned it earlier, specifically in regards to ledge-canceling and using it as an approach) I made sure to test whether Bowser can close the gap fast enough to hit Ganondorf when he dtilts if properly spaced.

He can't, dtilt's got too much range.

 

[B!squick]

I see. Well, you can't space it perfectly all the time.

And I still stand by SH Klaw as Bowser's way around it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I see. Well, you can't space it perfectly all the time.

And I still stand by SH Klaw as Bowser's way around it.

Top of the metagame, you still need to approach through it, which is what us Ganon players are concerned about, because it allows us to do what we do best, PUNISH!

If you predict the dtilt's timing, definitely, but predicting it is the trick.

 

[B!squick]

And Bowser can always respond to DTilt with Firebreath, lol.

Alot of the match up would deal with the muddy areas of stage and mind games. Overall though, I see it as in Bowser's favor. Though that could just be favoritism. *shrug*

 

[adumbrodeus]

And Bowser can always respond to DTilt with Firebreath, lol.

Alot of the match up would deal with the muddy areas of stage and mind games. Overall though, I see it as in Bowser's favor. Though that could just be favoritism. *shrug*

Shieldstun + long start-up +shielddrop= I'll still be able to jump and punish you for trying it. At worst, I'll be able to shield and roll backwards if it's not quite enough to jump on reaction.

Edit: As for Mindgames, I wrote a primer on how to deal with them, it should help with situational analysis for this match-up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What Ninjalink does when Bowser/Charizard does Firebreath on Ganon is SDI -> U-air.

Just saying.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What Ninjalink does when Bowser/Charizard does Firebreath on Ganon is SDI -> U-air.

Just saying.

Yea, but it's got 23 frames of start-up lag (and that's just for the fire to come out, it takes several more for it to reach it's full length), it's ridiculously easy to avoid and punish on reaction.

But yea, SDI ->uair works too.

Basically Firebreath is a non-issue onstage, you'll always get punished if you use it onstage and your opponent is also onstage.

 

[PhantomX]

I really don't have too much trouble with Bowser assuming my spacing is up. Pretty much Bowser's only real asset is his up b (in any matchup), and it's use is quite limited b/c Ganon's dtilt and fsmash have so much range, disallowing him from hitting you with the up b and then moving it away [I jest of course; his Klaw is amazing in this matchup b/c of Ganon's horrible mobility]. He also can't sit in shield or he risks getting flame choked. His recovery is pretty telegraphed as well, so if Ganon is near the edge and you're at stage level or below, Bowser is as good as dead.

Both hit like bulldozers made of proximity mines, but Ganon's deadliest moves are much easier to land (fsmash vs fsmash; ftilts are equally good, Ganon's Dash attack is ****, and his backair is quicker and autocancellable). Of course Bowser has CGs which mean unnecessary amounts of damage, but I think the matchup is quite close by all standards. His fire is actually pretty safe in this matchup compared to many b/c Ganon's options after SDIing through it are practically nonexistent... but it IS really slow.

 

[adumbrodeus]

His fire is actually pretty safe in this matchup compared to many b/c Ganon's options after SDIing through it are practically nonexistent... but it IS really slow.

As I just got finished telling people, it hits frame 23 at earliest, you should NEVER be hit by firebreath (at least not if you're onstage). As people face bowser more, as soon as they learn the start-up animation for the move it promptly becomes useless.

 

[MrEh]

As I just got finished telling people, it hits frame 23 at earliest, you should NEVER be hit by firebreath (at least not if you're onstage). As people face bowser more, as soon as they learn the start-up animation for the move it promptly becomes useless.

Never be by the Fire? O_o

Bowser's Fire is a good spacing move and even if shielded, it's safe on block provided it's spaced. (which is should be)


And coming out on frame 23 doesn't mean anything as long as it's spaced correctly. This is not just applicable to Ganon, but to every character really. Bowser's Fsmash has 2 hits, and the second hit comes out on frame 28. Why however, is Bowser's Fsmash so good? Going by your argument, Bowser's Fsmash is too slow to be viable anywhere. So why does it hit?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Never be by the Fire? O_o

Bowser's Fire is a good spacing move and even if shielded, it's safe on block provided it's spaced. (which is should be)


And coming out on frame 23 doesn't mean anything as long as it's spaced correctly. This is not just applicable to Ganon, but to every character really. Bowser's Fsmash has 2 hits, and the second hit comes out on frame 28. Why however, is Bowser's Fsmash so good? Going by your argument, Bowser's Fsmash is too slow to be viable anywhere. So why does it hit?

Bowser's f-smash is a punishing move, and occasionally mindgamable.

Flamebreath, well spaced correctly, if done onstage.... you'll get a fair to the face, or something equally unpleasant. Again, I just tested this, and my reflexes aren't CLOSE to the top of the metagame.

And if you hit, smash DI will get you out early enough to Uair.


If your opponent responds properly (aka as best as humanly possible) there is no good result from flame breath, unless you're far enough away that they can't do anything. Or it's being used as an edge-guard, not sure about that.

 

[MrEh]

Flamebreath, well spaced correctly, if done onstage.... you'll get a fair to the face, or something equally unpleasant. Again, I just tested this, and my reflexes aren't CLOSE to the top of the metagame.

If Bowser's just running up to people and shooting fire, he's doing it wrong. I hope that wasn't what you were doing.

And if you hit, smash DI will get you out early enough to Uair.

When Fire is used as a spacing tool, it's shot for the minimum amount of time. It disrupts, it's not meant to trap you for massive damage. If you end the fire quickly, it's impossible for most characters to punish it. (again, provided it was spaced)

The fact that GANONDORF can do this should say something, namely that every fire breath you used that you haven't been punished for is a gift that you shouldn't expect as people learn to spot the start-up animation.

Again, I'm not running up to people's faces and shooting fire at them. Doing that is ********.

Just put the ratio as "LOL" and be done with it. XD

 

[adumbrodeus]

If Bowser's just running up to people and shooting fire, he's doing it wrong. I hope that wasn't what you were doing.



When Fire is used as a spacing tool, it's shot for the minimum amount of time. It disrupts, it's not meant to trap you for massive damage. If you end the fire quickly, it's impossible for most characters to punish it. (again, provided it was spaced)



Again, I'm not running up to people's faces and shooting fire at them. Doing that is ********.

Conditions used were minimal amount of time, maximum space that it hits. All moves mentioned were well within range, and well before Bowser could put up his shield.

 

[MrEh]

And you also knew that the fire was coming. Someone in an actual match will not.

Fire is not as easily telegraphed as you think. It is if you're using it on the ground, but unless my opponent is offstage, that's not what I'll be doing.

 

[B!squick]

Sounds like the "AD the second hit of Bowser's DownB" arguement. Of course you can, but does anyone actually do it when it's not staged? I've yet to see it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And you also knew that the fire was coming. Someone in an actual match will not.

Fire is not as easily telegraphed as you think. It is if you're using it on the ground, but unless my opponent is offstage, that's not what I'll be doing.

I knew fire was coming but I didn't know WHEN fire was coming. Match-up knowledge was replicated, nothing more, and that's assumed at the top of the metagame. My point stands, if the start-up frames are recognized, fire breath becomes useless.

 

[PhantomX]

If we are trying to approach and Bowser randomly decides to throw out a fire breath instead of klawhopping or aerial spacing, it will more than likely hit, b/c it's used sporadically. It's a good disrupting tool.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Just put the matchup at 60-40 Ganondorf's advantage That way the Ganondorf mains have a response to the people who dismiss him because of his bad matchups, and Bowser can hopefully go down in the SBR tier list (so he can be used in low tier tournaments)

Win/win situation really

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Just put the matchup at 60-40 Ganondorf's advantage That way the Ganondorf mains have a response to the people who dismiss him because of his bad matchups, and Bowser can hopefully go down in the SBR tier list (so he can be used in low tier tournaments)

Win/win situation really

No, just no.

 

[:034:]

Just put the matchup at 60-40 Ganondorf's advantage That way the Ganondorf mains have a response to the people who dismiss him because of his bad matchups, and Bowser can hopefully go down in the SBR tier list (so he can be used in low tier tournaments)

Win/win situation really

Best solution ever.

 

[TP]

So, can we move on to finding the actual number? Looks like the discussion has run its course.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Just put the matchup at 60-40 Ganondorf's advantage That way the Ganondorf mains have a response to the people who dismiss him because of his bad matchups, and Bowser can hopefully go down in the SBR tier list (so he can be used in low tier tournaments)

Win/win situation really

NO. I do not approve of this. Ganondorf must not have ANY good match ups for ANY character. I love it this way... so if you win with him...your opponent looks like a ****ing failure at life, and if you lose, no one cares

 

[Squirrely]

NO. I do not approve of this. Ganondorf must not have ANY good match ups for ANY character. I love it this way... so if you win with him...your opponent looks like a ****ing failure at life, and if you lose, no one cares

That's a completely douchebag way of playing Ganon...

But that was my goal from the start.
My friends all hate me for it because I make them feel like crap by winning with Ganon
Maybe they should suck less.

 

[B!squick]

I knew fire was coming but I didn't know WHEN fire was coming. Match-up knowledge was replicated, nothing more, and that's assumed at the top of the metagame. My point stands, if the start-up frames are recognized, fire breath becomes useless.

Then we can just reverse it and your point becomes invalid.

EDIT: PhantomX has the right idea.

 

[*JuriHan*]

That's a completely douchebag way of playing Ganon...

But that was my goal from the start.
My friends all hate me for it because I make them feel like crap by winning with Ganon
Maybe they should suck less.

Nah it's not. It's called playing for lulz. At least that's what I call it.

 

[PhantomX]

I call it "playing for manliness."

You need to stop ruining all that is dear to me by being a girl that uses Ganondorf, SNO

 

[*JuriHan*]

I call it "playing for manliness."

You need to stop ruining all that is dear to me by being a girl that uses Ganondorf, SNO

D:

ahem. I use PINK Ganondorf.

oh wait... that probably makes it worse ^_^;;

 

[B!squick]

Women play Brawl? Lies!

 

[Noobicidal]

Women play Brawl? Lies!

Women are on the internets saying they play Brawl?

Side note, I'm looking forward to a character who isn't Bair-bait for Jiggs so I can offer my opinion.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If we are trying to approach and Bowser randomly decides to throw out a fire breath instead of klawhopping or aerial spacing, it will more than likely hit, b/c it's used sporadically. It's a good disrupting tool.

Does the frame data vary at all if started in the air? Your frame data chart didn't mention anything of the sort.

Regardless, the start-up for Fire-breath is rather distinctive and easy to tell from the Klaw or his other aerials, unless it's faster in some respect it doesn't make much of a difference, unless you do it high enough for it to cover aerially. In that case, I can see it being used as a disruption tool, but DIing out would still be a problem, wouldn't it? Remember, top of the metagame.

Then we can just reverse it and your point becomes invalid.

EDIT: PhantomX has the right idea.

Doing what, forwards or backwards, my response is the same, I don't need to vary it based on reverse because you don't cover the area Ganondorf is gonna be either way.


Basically, I'm suggesting that Bowser has much better options then Firebreath, it's too slow, and because smash DI is so powerful in this game, it's not really useful as a punisher.

Just put the matchup at 60-40 Ganondorf's advantage That way the Ganondorf mains have a response to the people who dismiss him because of his bad matchups, and Bowser can hopefully go down in the SBR tier list (so he can be used in low tier tournaments)

Win/win situation really

Yes, that would be awesome!

Seriously though, there's no way Ganon has the advantage, Bowser's punishment options are too good, even though he's forced to approach, Ganon can't take advantage of him like he would with most other characters forced to approach because of fortress and the grab release infinite just kills kittens.

 

[*JuriHan*]

Women play Brawl? Lies!

Jump off a cliff hon. (But checkout my Youtube channel before you do that.) ;*

 

[:034:]

Jump off a cliff hon. (But checkout my Youtube channel before you do that.) ;*

Very subtle

 

[*JuriHan*]

Very subtle

lol I'm just messing.

 

[B!squick]

my response is the same, I don't need to vary it based on reverse because you don't cover the area Ganondorf is gonna be either way.

Basically, I'm suggesting that Bowser has much better options then Firebreath, it's too slow, and because smash DI is so powerful in this game, it's not really useful as a punisher.

You seem to be missing the point. We're aiming to miss.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224597

And by reverse I was refering to a wave bounced Firebreath which I know you wont see coming. Most of the time I don't either as it normally stems from a botched Klaw attempt, but I digress.

If someone wants to do more indepth frame data on Firebreath they're welcome to it as I'm pretty sure if the Bowser player has half a mind he wont be punshed for it.

Seriously though, there's no way Ganon has the advantage, Bowser's punishment options are too good, even though he's forced to approach, Ganon can't take advantage of him like he would with most other characters forced to approach because of fortress and the grab release infinite just kills kittens.

Don't forget Klaw.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You seem to be missing the point. We're aiming to miss.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224597

And by reverse I was refering to a wave bounced Firebreath which I know you wont see coming. Most of the time I don't either as it normally stems from a botched Klaw attempt, but I digress.

If someone wants to do more indepth frame data on Firebreath they're welcome to it as I'm pretty sure if the Bowser player has half a mind he wont be punshed for it.

I thought you were referring to what PhantomX was talking about, the surprise hit. Ok, I see now.


Look, my entire point was that I don't need to see it coming because I can react to it. It's got 23 frames of start-up lag, at point-blank range. That's long enough for me to put down the controller, make a spot of hot coco, write a few posts on smashboards, balance my checkbook, discuss the meaning of life over tea and crumpets, and still have enough time to react to bowser's flame breath.


Ok, so you're planning to miss, but as I said, Ganondorf is well in range so even if your aim is just to occupy space with it, unless you're far enough that it doesn't really matter in the first place, he can still punish you on reaction.

Don't forget Klaw.

That was more his defensive options, I'd consider Klaw a kitten-killing offensive option.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And coming out on frame 23 doesn't mean anything as long as it's spaced correctly. This is not just applicable to Ganon, but to every character really. Bowser's Fsmash has 2 hits, and the second hit comes out on frame 28. Why however, is Bowser's Fsmash so good? Going by your argument, Bowser's Fsmash is too slow to be viable anywhere. So why does it hit?

Bowser's F-smash is pretty mediocre, and so is Ganon's F-smash. Both take forever to start up, don't have all THAT much range (I mean come on, Marth's F-smash still has more range, except Ganon wins slightly with the stutter step). Also, both are pretty unsafe on block. You can just drop shield and dashgrab after they throw out F-smash. =/

Ganon just saying can combo into F-smash at low percents with D-air. Does 46%.