"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[@HomE]

Well it kinda depends on how we want to do this... should we pick certain people (or people who would be willing) to write up a list of all the match-up numbers (much like FD already did) and just PM them to someone and that person can take all the numbers and average them all out..

or were we going to do a discussion about all the match-ups THEN have people submit their lists, or should we all just post our lists here.. someone needs to make that decision before we can really go forward.

 

[TP]

Well it kinda depends on how we want to do this... should we pick certain people (or people who would be willing) to write up a list of all the match-up numbers (much like FD already did) and just PM them to someone and that person can take all the numbers and average them all out..

or were we going to do a discussion about all the match-ups THEN have people submit their lists, or should we all just post our lists here.. someone needs to make that decision before we can really go forward.

As has been stated, a full discussion of the character must take place. After that, each of the 5 or so panelists would submit their number for that matchup, then the average would be taken and we would move on to the next one.

 

[@HomE]

Ok well then lets get the discussion started, should we start at the top with MK?


(I think we should try to keep these discussions somewhat brief)

 

[Deleted member]

Uhh if ray kalm doesnt wanna comply you should make a new thread or at least get new ownership of this thread.

Who are the 5 panelists just out of curiousity?
I guess that sounds like a good idea as long as the panelists like play in tournaments and are realyl knowledgable about ganondorf.

 

[TP]

Uhh if ray kalm doesnt wanna comply you should make a new thread or at least get new ownership of this thread.

Who are the 5 panelists just out of curiousity?
I guess that sounds like a good idea as long as the panelists like play in tournaments and are realyl knowledgable about ganondorf.

Kalm's still in charge. He can shut this whole concept down if he wants. However, based on PMs I've had with him, that is unlikely at this point. I suppose he will be the one to name the panelists.

 

[:034:]

I think we should just leave it as it is, maybe go over a couple more characters. People should have their own interpretation for match-up numbers, it's how well you do against a certain character that counts. If you've had a ton of Marth practice against Ganondorf, by all means, go for it. In the end it's your own decision whether you go with Ganon or CP and we can only give you some moderate advice if you choose to stick with Ganon.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Kalm's still in charge. He can shut this whole concept down if he wants. However, based on PMs I've had with him, that is unlikely at this point. I suppose he will be the one to name the panelists.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to have more than five panelists? We have a lot of knowledgeable members around, only choosing five amongst them seems a bit harsh to me.

 

[TP]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to have more than five panelists? We have a lot of knowledgeable members around, only choosing five amongst them seems a bit harsh to me.

You're the boss. Whatever we do, it is time for action. We've discussed long enough.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You're the boss. Whatever we do, it is time for action. We've discussed long enough.

Alright, then, ten seems like a reasonable number.

Koskinator, Ray Kalm, Z1gma, Twilight Prince, Gleam, Flying Dutchman, SaltyKracka, A2Zomg, Adumbrodeus.

The last one, I can't decide. What do you think?

 

[Clai]

You're the boss. Whatever we do, it is time for action. We've discussed long enough.

Agreed, can't wait to see how this turns out.

Unfortunately, I have virtually no experience against most of the cast, and the people I do have experience against are not viable sources of information, so you probably won't get anything useful out of me. I hope this discussion gets constructive and ends on a positive note, though.

 

[@HomE]

I agree with Kalm 100%

Koskinator
Ray Kalm
Zhouten
Ant1
Jekyll
DAD
IJosh
Z1gma
Twilight Prince
stRIP
DLA
Gleam
SaltyKracka
Flying Dutchman
K_Prime
Blad
Breezy
A2Zomg
@HomE

ANY of those people should be "qualified" to make a Match-up chart(IMO), the more people we have(who are qualified) the better. that list i posted is straight from the tier list (i removed some inactive members) definatly not a solid list by an means, just an example of people i think are capable.

I think it would work best if we just PM'd someone our lists and that person could compile the data, if we all just posted them here we could/would influence each other's #'s.

EDIT: Kalm your list looks pretty good, maybe include stRIP?

 

[TP]

I say you include Squirrely. He's known for being very descriptive about matchups, right?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay guys, let's hurry up.

Let's start with the same order we had originally, so Bowser first.

Edit: I knew I left out someone important.

 

[talkingbeatles]

That fire is terrible to deal with. I think though, if you can get a murder choke off on him (that's seems like a big if), then things could go smoothly.

I suggest short hopped forward Bs.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Shouln't you guys inform the character boards while discussing the match-up against the character?

 

[:034:]

Fire can suck but you can deal with it. DI out of it if you get trapped and wait until it's "burned down" (ahaha) or get around it. The big problem is - Bowser has infinite release chaingrab, but not into a spike, I believe. Keep your spacing with dtilt and once you see the oppurtunity to Flame Choke - DO SO, it's your biggest help in this match-up.

Bowser has the reach over us, and I think it's about equal in strength in speed. He can klaw hop for pretty great aerial mobility, but just keep your cool. Don't panic. If he grabs you, DI so you won't suffer from the kamikaze attack.

A good Bowser will fear both the edge and the air. Bowser's high-air options are less than substantial so try to get him up there and go for the uairs. On the edge (and off the stage) Bowser's options are pretty limited.. Though I have no idea about gimping him. Supposedly, dair and reverse uair go through his up-b.

Also, watch out for his super quick up-b, it's a great out of shield option that will terrorize you if you're not on your toes. Basically - you shouldn't be attacking his shield, unless he's standing directly by the edge (which will make him fall off). Oh yeah, it has invincibility frames. Dtilt saves you against grabbing, but I'm not sure about up-b.

Bowser's rolls are short and there to be taken advantage of (this includes ANY rolls, the "ohnoes I'm laying on the ground and have to get away" ones as well).

Short hopped forward B's are bad, don't use them. B00zer can attack you before you can react which is totally gay.

I'd say either 55:45 or 60:40. Bowser has stuff over us (range) but this doesn't seem to come up much during the actual battle. As for the chaingrabs... There's no way they can pull it off every stock, with their crappy grab range and lag, us not attacking their shields with aerials (which are more likely to get grabbed)... Bowser basically just has the 'theoretical' advantage, in practice it's more likely to really be about "who is the better player" (and no this isn't always the case with Ganon's match-ups).

...

 

[Sgt. Baker]

The Bowser's I've played love their Fortress- I mean LOVE it. That's one of their best/favorite moves.

They also like the grab game of theirs.

They have range over Ganny but I've found it easy that once I'm in their safety zone I can get a good hit or two in until the Fortress pops out. I can also pull off a spike but they're getting tricky with the Koopa Klaw and their recovery (lol).

I'd say 60:40 (at most) tipping in Bowser's favor.

 

[@HomE]

I would say 55-45 Bowser, for all the reasons above..

Flame choke is the key to this match-up, i play aggressive vs bowser and try to not let them catch their breath. Bowser is very easy to combo, and stomp murders bowser badly. Dont get grabbed and dont fall victim to the Klaw.

 

[B!squick]

Supposedly, dair and reverse uair go through his up-b.

This is a depends sorta thing. As you said, Fortress has invincibility frames so it's just a matter of who uses what move first. I would count on DAir working better than UAir, though UAir may work, I'm just making assumptions here. Gimping Bowser is difficult because of his great aerial mobility and Fortress. The only time I can remember being gimped (by non-MKs) is by Kirby's DAir and DownB. I guessing the draw back animation keeps Kirby from the invinicibility while the super priority it seems to have punches my recovery in the face.

So, if Ganon's DAir has a comparable priority to Kirby's it has a good chance of working.

Other than that tid bit of info, you guys seem to have a really good understanding of the match up. Say, are any good Ganon's going to Gen? Vex plans on doing as many MMs as possible.

 

[Gleam]

Forgive me all, but I just have to question on this whole "Bowser has more range...because from what I've tested...this isn't true." Bowser might have a move that's longer than any of Ganon's, but in an overall sense Ganon has it.

Just breaking it down.

Neutral A (Ganon's punch is longer than Bowser's first swipe, while Bowser's second swipe is longer)

F-tilt (Bowser's is longer)

D-tilt (Ganon's is long)

U-tilt (Vertically Bowser is longer but horizontally Ganon easily takes the cake)

F-smash (Normally Bowsers is longer, but unless Bowser has a stutter step Fsmash *Does he?* Than Ganon's Fsmash is longer)

D-Smash (Ganon's is longer)

Up Smash (Ganon's longer horizontally, Bowser vertically)

Neutral B (Bowser defintine)

Forward B (Ganon's is longer)

Down B (Ganon's is longer horizontally, though of course Bowsers get that vertical advantage)

Up B (Verticle advantage for Ganon, horizontal for Bowser)

From what I see that's 7 advantage Bowser 9 Advantage Ganon as far as range is concerned.

Maybe I missed something, I could have. Maybe there's something about Bowser that gives him extra range on something.

 

[TP]

Bowser's Down B gets canceled by him grabbing the ledge. I saw a video of Vex in which he would jump off the ledge, use a double jump and immediately Down B back to the ledge, nailing anyone foolish enough to jump in the way. In other words, don't get too aggressive in a situation like that.

Bowser does have a grab release chaingrab on us, as well as grab release Klaw, which means any grab could potentially end the game if you have one stock left. Grab release Fair is annoying too. Bowser's grab range is actually really good, it just doesn't look like it compared to how large he is.

Choke>Jab is guaranteed. If Bowser is at a low percent, Choke>Jab>Choke>Jab>Wizkick usually works. The Wizkick hits because the spotdodge expecting a third choke. Choke>Stomp is guaranteed if Bowser does his getup attack or roll toward you, I believe. Stomp>Wizkick should effectively cover every option he has.

His Utilt kills at pretty low percents, but besides that we love platforms in this matchup. Uair his all day long. Speaking of which, one tipman will surely gimp Bowser. RAR jump out toward him to bait his Up B, then use your double jump and Uair and you should win. I have not tested this.

Overall, this is a pretty even matchup. Don't attack his shield, don't try to plank, savor every choke you get, and you should be fine.

Don't forget this fella, guys. You are supposed to use him in all posts all across SWF.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Gleam, we're really talking about longest ranged safe move versus longest range safe move here, or barring that, longest range move that cannot be defended against on reaction.


I feel like I'm killing a kitten here, but I think this match-up is bad, mainly because Bowser has one of the main Marth problems.

Namely, you hit shield, you're getting punished. Fortress is the most amazing single OoS option in the game. The invincibility frames on fortress are, like with dolphin slash, the first 5, followed by hitbox on frame 6. This also destroys any linked moves that aren't true combos, one frame of Bowser being in control, he can up-b out of it. It's also a heck of a lot safer then Marth's because he can freely maneuver it, and there's a lot less lag, especially on the grounded person (for extra points, edge-cancel it).


That said, possible saving grace, I don't have anyone to test it with right now, but is dtilt safe on shield? This match-up should be a lot more manageable with a safe on shield dtilt.



Edit: Basically, if we've gotta approach, this is probably a 65-35 match-up or worse, if he has to approach, this match-up probably is about even. His counter options are too good.

 

[Gleam]

Ah, safer ranged moves. That makes much better sense to me, thanks Adum.

 

[TP]

Ah, safer ranged moves. That makes much better sense to me, thanks Adum.

Fixed.

 

[Gleam]

Excuse my insolense...The Gleam of Ganon has been blightened by light and has slowly forgotten the Dark Ways.

 

[B!squick]

Bowser's UpB has invincibility on frames 1-6 with the first hitbox coming out after that. By comparison Marth's has it on frames 1-5 with the first hitbox coming out on the 5th frame. If it wasn't for the after lag Marth's would be better, but I digress.

Neutral A (Ganon's punch is longer than Bowser's first swipe, while Bowser's second swipe is longer)

Okay.

F-tilt (Bowser's is longer)

It generally is longer than many moves and it used alot thusly.

D-tilt (Ganon's is long)

Longer though? Bowser's DTilt either meets or beats FTilt's range.

U-tilt (Vertically Bowser is longer but horizontally Ganon easily takes the cake)

Bowser kills vertically so this makes sense. And it's very useful against aerial approaches i.e.: what Ganon will be doing most likely.

F-smash (Normally Bowsers is longer, but unless Bowser has a stutter step Fsmash *Does he?* Than Ganon's Fsmash is longer)

I'm played both characters extensively and Bowser's FSmash is disjointed. Granted, Ganon's is too, but I think Bowser's may be even more. It has a useful drawback animation which makes it act somewhat like a spot dodge. It's also a multi hit move and is mostly used as a punishment tool anyway.

D-Smash (Ganon's is longer)

Ganon's walk is probably longer. DSmash is for rolls and after ADs into the opponent when we can get away with it. You can SDI out of it and as said, the range is terrible. Easily one of Bowser's worst moves. In contrast, Ganon's is pretty bad to, but trust me, Bowser's is probably worse.

Up Smash (Ganon's longer horizontally, Bowser vertically)

Indeed. Bowser's weak spot isn't above him.

Neutral B (Bowser defintine)

Spaced well, this can really put a damper on your parade.

Forward B (Ganon's is longer)

And Bowser's beats it in priority and the aerial version is very useful against Ganon.

Down B (Ganon's is longer horizontally, though of course Bowsers get that vertical advantage)

I think Bowser's works out of GR on Ganon. Maybe not guaranteed, but 95% of follow ups in Brawl aren't guaranteed anyway.

Up B (Verticle advantage for Ganon, horizontal for Bowser)

Okay.

I'm pretty sure FTilt beats most of Ganon's moveset while Fortress OoS takes care of most aerial approaches. I really don't see it as being as close as 45-55 Bowser.

 

[TP]

I just did some testing.

If Bowser rolls away from you after a choke, he is still within the range of a stutterstep Fsmash.

Dtilt is awesome. Not only does it outrange Bowser's Dtilt and Ftilt, but it can't get shieldgrabbed if you space it correctly. That move changes the entire matchup.

 

[MrEh]

It's Bowser and Ganon. Who cares what the ratio is? lol

Just set the ratio to "MANLY" and be done with it.

 

[CookieCrisp]

That chart is kind of depressing now that I look at it. The only battle that is in his favor is against himself!

 

[Squirrely]

I like the MANLY suggestion.
I'd also go with BALLS.

Same thing, different flavor.

 

[:034:]

Adum, you're overreacting on the match-up by a lot

Yes, you're right, if Bowser makes us approach it's bad. However, Bowser does not have the tools for excessive camping. Fire can simply be dealt with as it is not infinite and does not have a lot of range like a standard projectile or a good zair. Bowser does have great aerial mobility but I can't say that counts as camping like we see in the likes of Falco, Snake, Wario etc.

Basically, neither of them has to approach, which will just make the match resolve in good spacing... In which either one of them has the tools for victory, only Bowser has a little more.

And yeah dtilt is too good

 

[Sgt. Baker]

I like the MANLY suggestion.
I'd also go with BALLS.

Same thing, different flavor.

This is just one of the many reasons why te Ganon Boards are teh best

 

[@HomE]

Is that enough discussion on Bowser for the "committee" to get a good idea of the match-up? I'm not trying to rush anything I just want to make sure this keeps moving, either way to me it looks like we have a very good grasp of this match-up

 

[B!squick]

Which is surprizing considering how likely you are to actually see it.

 

[TP]

Which is surprizing considering how likely you are to actually see it.

I've seen it in tourney twice, funny enough, and won both times.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Forgive me all, but I just have to question on this whole "Bowser has more range...because from what I've tested...this isn't true." Bowser might have a move that's longer than any of Ganon's, but in an overall sense Ganon has it.

Just breaking it down.

Neutral A (Ganon's punch is longer than Bowser's first swipe, while Bowser's second swipe is longer)

F-tilt (Bowser's is longer)

D-tilt (Ganon's is long)

U-tilt (Vertically Bowser is longer but horizontally Ganon easily takes the cake)

F-smash (Normally Bowsers is longer, but unless Bowser has a stutter step Fsmash *Does he?* Than Ganon's Fsmash is longer)

D-Smash (Ganon's is longer)

Up Smash (Ganon's longer horizontally, Bowser vertically)

Neutral B (Bowser defintine)

Forward B (Ganon's is longer)

Down B (Ganon's is longer horizontally, though of course Bowsers get that vertical advantage)

Up B (Verticle advantage for Ganon, horizontal for Bowser)

From what I see that's 7 advantage Bowser 9 Advantage Ganon as far as range is concerned.

Maybe I missed something, I could have. Maybe there's something about Bowser that gives him extra range on something.

lol sound slike ur comparing **** sizes...

anyways, I find a lot of trouble in this matchup with the fire. the best way i can get around it without taking a huge risk is the air, though this usually means an u-tilt from him. Bowser just has us a bit outclassed in attributes like speed, range, and strength. It's nothing unwinnable, though. 60:40

 

[:034:]

Which is surprizing considering how likely you are to actually see it.

The infinite chaingrab? I saw it happen once against a Meta Knight player. Bowser also eventually lost that match. Ah well. Time for Nidoking.



I MESSED UP!!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adum, you're overreacting on the match-up by a lot

Yes, you're right, if Bowser makes us approach it's bad. However, Bowser does not have the tools for excessive camping. Fire can simply be dealt with as it is not infinite and does not have a lot of range like a standard projectile or a good zair. Bowser does have great aerial mobility but I can't say that counts as camping like we see in the likes of Falco, Snake, Wario etc.

Basically, neither of them has to approach, which will just make the match resolve in good spacing... In which either one of them has the tools for victory, only Bowser has a little more.

And yeah dtilt is too good

I don't think so, Bowser really has good punishing options, he's mostly held back by the fact that he doesn't have the ability to force approaches in most match-ups and a lot of people can force him to approach (sound like somebody we know?). Actually, there's onlythree characters that make this "amazing punishing, but basically non-existant non-melee game" idea work... Marth, MK, and DK. The other characters that do it are Zelda, Ike, Bowser, Ganondorf. Basically, all the ones that make it work are very powerful in the metagame, the ones that don't are universally low tier, and the difference is whether they can reliably force approaches generally. However, every single one has one thing in common, approaching them in almost every match-up, hurts. You wanna outcamp the ones who don't make it work, not approach them.


But...


So, dtilt is safe on block, he can't punish with fortress (probably the only possible punish). Then this match-up is a lot more managable, unless he's got something longer ranged that's also safe on block. (PS. I just double checked, dtilt IS safe on block).

If he tries dealing with our camping with fire breath, it's got a long cooldown plus it doesn't hit till frame 23. Fullhop-> fair/dair (bair at lower percents), Fullhop-> Down-b, they all punish, I just tested it.

Ok, so basically firebreath won't be doing much, he's forced to approach. Actually, I'm leaning towards a dead even in this match-up, the biggest issue he'll give us is that up-b really messes with combos and if we make a major mistake, he can grab, since he's forced to approach via dtilt, it's not too much of an issue.

Of course, if he didn't have those crazy options (grounded up-b still hurts, even as an approach), this match-up would probably be in Ganon's favor, but what can we do?


50-50, 45-55 at worst?


edit: Yea, complete turn around, a little hard data does wonders.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's a pretty neutral matchup. It depends on the stage imo.

Ganon does better with the juggling and slightly better edgeguarding in this particular matchup, but Bowser is slightly safer on the shield with a number of attacks.

Also...keep in mind his Forward-B has ZERO LANDING LAG. Which is incredibly gay when you think about it. You can't shield it of course, and if you spotdodge, well, that just leaves you in a bad position.

 

[B!squick]

The infinite chaingrab? I saw it happen once against a Meta Knight player. Bowser also eventually lost that match. Ah well. Time for Nidoking.



I MESSED UP!!

No, the Bowser/Ganon match up.

I don't think so, Bowser really has good punishing options, he's mostly held back by the fact that he doesn't have the ability to force approaches in most match-ups and a lot of people can force him to approach (sound like somebody we know?). Actually, there's onlythree characters that make this "amazing punishing, but basically non-existant non-melee game" idea work... Marth, MK, and DK. The other characters that do it are Zelda, Ike, Bowser, Ganondorf. Basically, all the ones that make it work are very powerful in the metagame, the ones that don't are universally low tier, and the difference is whether they can reliably force approaches generally. However, every single one has one thing in common, approaching them in almost every match-up, hurts. You wanna outcamp the ones who don't make it work, not approach them.


But...


So, dtilt is safe on block, he can't punish with fortress (probably the only possible punish). Then this match-up is a lot more managable, unless he's got something longer ranged that's also safe on block. (PS. I just double checked, dtilt IS safe on block).

If he tries dealing with our camping with fire breath, it's got a long cooldown plus it doesn't hit till frame 23. Fullhop-> fair/dair (bair at lower percents), Fullhop-> Down-b, they all punish, I just tested it.

Ok, so basically firebreath won't be doing much, he's forced to approach. Actually, I'm leaning towards a dead even in this match-up, the biggest issue he'll give us is that up-b really messes with combos and if we make a major mistake, he can grab, since he's forced to approach via dtilt, it's not too much of an issue.

Of course, if he didn't have those crazy options (grounded up-b still hurts, even as an approach), this match-up would probably be in Ganon's favor, but what can we do?


50-50, 45-55 at worst?


edit: Yea, complete turn around, a little hard data does wonders.

I'd use Firebreath in extremely short bursts to zone. Even if Ganon happens to get caught up in it he should be able Choke afterward which is far worse than anything you mentioned.

And if you want to sit back with your DTilt, that's fine, I'll SH Klaw that all day, no probs.

It's a pretty neutral matchup. It depends on the stage imo.

Ganon does better with the juggling and slightly better edgeguarding in this particular matchup, but Bowser is slightly safer on the shield with a number of attacks.

Also...keep in mind his Forward-B has ZERO LANDING LAG. Which is incredibly gay when you think about it. You can't shield it of course, and if you spotdodge, well, that just leaves you in a bad position.

Well, in frames it's 3, but yeah, pretty much what you said.

I imagine, depending on the stage mind you, Bowser doing a WoK (wall of Klaw), then Ganon taking to the air, Bower landing and hiding in his shield, Ganon probably not attacking it...

And, yeah, a stalemate ensues. Though I could just be over thinking this. >.>